Talk:Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church
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[edit] Estonian Orthodox Church
It seems unlikely that there will ever be agreement on which of the two competing claimants is the Estonian Orthodox Church. I have now moved this article from Estonian Orthodox Church to Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church and made Estonian Orthodox Church into a dab page. I created a new article Estonian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) using the alternate version of this article. Both articles now contain duplicate information. Neither is however a POV fork as they are about real churches. We could move the duplicated material on back to Estonian Orthodox Church. -- Petri Krohn 08:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Well done, although I had difficulties after two months of absence to find this article. What do you mean by: "We could move the duplicated material *on back* to the Estonian Orthodox Church?? In Finnish, which I suppose you use: "takaisin", or "takana", and in the latter case: "minkä takana"?
- I also am of the opinion, that some words of the active role of the Finnish Orthodox Church during the 1990's, and especially of Archbishop Johannes and metropolitan Ambrosius should be added. Without their backing of the re-creation of the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church might never have been realized. Greetings from a fellow Finn!--Tellervo 18:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
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- We could create a article named History of Orthodoxy in Estonia, and move the common history (upto 1993?) there. THis article could also cover the split from a NPOV point of view. Estonian Orthodox Church could redirect to this page or stay a dab page, as it is now. The two articles on the chuches are needed, as they clearly are separate entities. -- Petri Krohn 01:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Sounds good. Maybe I should write articles about archbishop Johannes and metropolitan Ambrosius. I have not heards about Lennart Meri's role in this affair. Please, tell me about it!
- --Tellervo 09:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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- P.S. Archbishop Johannes and metropolitan Ambrosius do not seem to have articles. The history article should also cover the role played by president Lennart Meri. -- Petri Krohn 01:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Original research
Until one provides reference to a chronicle that mentions "Tharbatu" ca. 600 (and the expelled Christians too), I will remove every attempt at promoting patent fantasies and fringecruft. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Here you go. From the first page of some Google searches: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Too sleepy to look for more or better sources. However, remember that besides chronicles there are archaeological digs as well, far more accurate then chronicles. I have no idea about those expelled Christians, but Tartu was probably settled before onset of Christianity. DLX 19:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Take it easy, DLX. What one is dealing here is Ghirlandajo's own two amateurish fantasies (been there, seen that before in discussions about history of Tartu, Russians in Estonia, etc. First of his "patent fantasies" is that Dorpat/Tharbata is a German name, and hence one should only talk about Yuriev before the first written references to Dorpat/Tharbata in early 1200s. (Notably, Ghirlandajo does not appreciate the suggestion though that by same logic, e.g., one should only talk about Holmgard before the first written references to Novgorod). His second "patent fantasy" is that (no matter how many times chronicles refer to mutual military raids and to how Yuriev was captured, recaptured, burnt down, etc.) since there is no explicit written record of all Early East Slavs and Orthodox Christians having been expelled from Yuriev and southeastern Estonia at some point of time after 1030, it would mean that there was a continuous settlement of Orthodox Christians in and around Yuriev in southeastern Estonia all the way from 1030 through the 13th century up until today. Any attempts at indicating otherwise is bound to be labelled "original research" by Ghirlandajo. Cheers, --3 Löwi 20:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Ghirlandajo may have fallen victim of Slavic ethnographic bias. In the middle of the First Millennium, most East Slavs had no use for European-style fortifications, due to the prevalent tactics of military raids; thus, it would be surprising to find such a fortification in, say, Siberia. However, this is not the case in Europe, nor most of the territories significantly influenced by the Roman Empire, such as Middle East. Similarly, chronicles of various sorts are important for piecing together Russian early history, but in case of Estonia, most events happening before around 1000 CE are primarily studied through archaeological means. As for preferring Russian names over all alternatives on various pretexts, I guess only the 5-öre coins are the real currency. Digwuren 10:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- The Encyclopedia Brittanica lists "Tarbatu" as being established in the 5th Century in the location of Tartu.[5]. So that settles it as far as I am concerned. Martintg 23:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- The Britannica is not a primary source. Either you provide the written reference to Tharbata, dating from the 5th century, or the piece of nationalist propaganda should go. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- WP policies do not REQUIRE primary sources. Secondary ot tretiary are preffered. Please see for yourself WP:RS . --Alexia Death 11:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- I know what WP policies recommend. But without knowing the primary source, we cannot assess whether a secondary source may be trusted at all. Britannica claims that Pushkin frequented Prague. I would not hold my breath for whatever nonsense compiled by them without proper critical examination. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- Re-read Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable published secondary sources." Encyclopedia Britannica can be regarded as a reliable secondary source. If you revert again this will be considered vandalism. Martintg 21:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- I know what WP policies recommend. But without knowing the primary source, we cannot assess whether a secondary source may be trusted at all. Britannica claims that Pushkin frequented Prague. I would not hold my breath for whatever nonsense compiled by them without proper critical examination. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- WP policies do not REQUIRE primary sources. Secondary ot tretiary are preffered. Please see for yourself WP:RS . --Alexia Death 11:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- The Britannica is not a primary source. Either you provide the written reference to Tharbata, dating from the 5th century, or the piece of nationalist propaganda should go. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Take it easy, DLX. What one is dealing here is Ghirlandajo's own two amateurish fantasies (been there, seen that before in discussions about history of Tartu, Russians in Estonia, etc. First of his "patent fantasies" is that Dorpat/Tharbata is a German name, and hence one should only talk about Yuriev before the first written references to Dorpat/Tharbata in early 1200s. (Notably, Ghirlandajo does not appreciate the suggestion though that by same logic, e.g., one should only talk about Holmgard before the first written references to Novgorod). His second "patent fantasy" is that (no matter how many times chronicles refer to mutual military raids and to how Yuriev was captured, recaptured, burnt down, etc.) since there is no explicit written record of all Early East Slavs and Orthodox Christians having been expelled from Yuriev and southeastern Estonia at some point of time after 1030, it would mean that there was a continuous settlement of Orthodox Christians in and around Yuriev in southeastern Estonia all the way from 1030 through the 13th century up until today. Any attempts at indicating otherwise is bound to be labelled "original research" by Ghirlandajo. Cheers, --3 Löwi 20:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
