Talk:Esther

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from http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/ :

We are bound, however, to mention some critical objections.

(1) The Babylonian festival corresponding to Purim was not the spring festival of Zagmuk, but the summer festival of Ishtar, which is probably the Sacaea of Berossus, an orgiastic festival analogous to Purim.

riiiight, Purim occurs in summer not spring and is celebrated with wild orgies, sure :P Kuratowski's Ghost 02:49, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(2) According to Jensens theory, Mordecai, and not Esther, ought to be the direct cause of Hamans ruin.

(3) No such Babylonian account as Jensen postulates can be indicated. (4) The identifications of names are hazardous. Fancy a descendant of Kish called Marduk, and an Agagite called Hamman! Elsewhere Mordecai (Ezra ii. ~ Neh. viL 7) occurs among names which are certainly not Persian (Bigvai is no exception), and Haman (Tobit xiv. 50) appears as a nephew of Achiachar, which is not a Persian name. Esther, moreover, ought to be parallel to Judith; fancy likening the representative of Israel to the goddess Ishtar!

Achiachar is generally understood to be the Persian name Akhuwakhshatra = Cyaxares. Kuratowski's Ghost 00:09, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I would like to see a counterpoint on the idea that Esther is historical fiction (to make the entry more balanced). Anyone know of one? -- Ram-Man

The arguments against its historicty are typical 19th century pseudo-scholarship. Lets take a look:
  1. Vashti allegedly comes from an Elamite water spirit Mashti - but that name is entirely fabricated and not attested in any source - it is a fabrication based on the attested Persian water spirit Mah and the name Vashti in Esther.
  2. Haman allegedly comes from an Elamite or Babylonian god or demon named Human or Uman or Humban or Humnan again all of which are unattested fabricated names - they are frabrications based the attested Persian earth spirit Asman and the unrelated Babylonian demon Humbaba and the name Haman from Esther.
  3. Mordecai is supposedely Marduk but the name in fact means "servant of Marduk" and is an attested genuine name in the form Mardaka. Its use amongst Jews can be undertood by the fact that "Marduk" was the creator in Babylonian mythology and that his name could conceiveably have been used by Jews simply to mean God.
  4. Esther is supposed to be Ishtar despite the fact that Judaism was well aware of the goddess Ishtar whom it calls Ashtoreth and opposed to her worship (duh). The names are phonetically unrelated in Hebrew - roots aleph-samech-tav-resh for Esther vs ayin-shin-tav-resh for Ishtar/Ashtoreth. Esther was named Hadassah in Hebrew meaning myrtle and "astra" is a known word for myrtle from the region of Media, related to the Indo-European root for "star" based on the appearance of the flowers. While still conjectural it is far more sensible that the name Esther is related to this word and is simply a translation of her Hebrew name. The only real connection with "Ishtar" would then be the coincidence that "Ishtar" is probably also related to the ancient root for "star". Ishtar being the goddess identified iwth the planet Venus.
  5. Hamantaschen are supposed to derive from the cakes baked to honour Ishtar mentioned in Jeremiah but hamantaschen were invented in Eastern Europe in relatively recent times.
Kuratowski's Ghost 00:09, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)


The "balance" is that the Bible says what it says, and all the historical facts we have contradict it, as the Book of Esther article says. Would you like to combine the two articles and make one title redirect to the other? I think that would be a great idea. -- isis 15:55 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)
Depending on who you identify Ahasuerus with there are some contradictions with what various Greek historians claim but the Greek historians in fact contradict each other as well as Persian records. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:28, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] ESTHER IS REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop smoking what ever you are smoking!!!!! The bible has never been proven wrong but everything points to its reality! There is no way to proven it wrong!

The above was written by the IP 67.50.215.221 Samboy 00:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • sign
  • cut down on the !'s
  • this is just, like, your opinion, many people will laugh in your face for such reasoning
  • There is no way to proven it wrong – you bet there is. it's even self-contradictory, in parts. The parts that cannot be proven wrong are worthless as factual statement anyway. Falsifiability.

dab 10:50, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:52, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If we remove the NPOV notice, can we also take the 'marginal' out of Some marginal modern scholars? What is a 'marginal scholar'? Most scholars will not take the biblical account for historical fact. dab 10:52, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Only true of you exclude all Bible believing Christian scholars and all Jewish scholars other than the minority Humanistic Jews. :P Kuratowski's Ghost 00:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Bible believing Christian scholars", meaning, literally believing in the literal letter? How can you be a scholar if there is no room for debate? More to the point, how many of them are there? I imagine they cluster in the American midwest, but worldwide, they must be pretty rare. dab (ᛏ) 07:22, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well only the fundamentalists believe that every single word is divinely inspired truth (and fundamentalists are not a negligible group). Many will recognize that the story is "dramatized" but there is a big difference bewteen recognizing dramatization and adhering to 19th century crank arguments. Kuratowski's Ghost 15:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is amazing that Greek stories can be recorded as fact (these people believed in Gods and Goddesses who were mythical)so why would their stories not be mythical also?207.119.91.193 20:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ahasuerus

well, the Xerxes article mentions the connection, the Artaxerxes one doesn't. What is the basis for either identification? The Herodotus reference of course relies on the identification with Xerxes. dab (ᛏ) 07:36, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The identification with Xerxes I is based on the fact that the most plausible explanation of the name Ahasurus is that it is derived from Khshayarsha as is Xerxes. Xerxes II is too late therefore Xerxes I. Artaxerxes II based on the fact that the Septuagint version of Esther calls him Artaxerxes as does Josephus plus the description of the extent of his empire which doesn't fit Artaxerxes I. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:33, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Besides these most popular identifications there are several other theories including identifications with various Cyaxares, Cyrus, Camyses, Darius, Arses etc. The information from Greek historians is problematic and is by no means certain that they name the kings consistently, one historians Artaxerxes III appears to match anothers Artaxerxes II for example (can't remember the details off hand) the bottom line is that not enough information is known to be certain about which king was which in Greek sources let alone which king matches Ahasuerus. Kuratowski's Ghost 15:19, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the POV comments that Esther's family didn't avail themselves of the opportunity to return under Cyrus' decree. Nothing like that is stated in the Book of Esther. Perhaps they were prevented from returning against their will. It is not even agreed that the events happen after the decree. If one interpets the statement about exile under Nebuchadnezzar as referring to Mordecai himself not to his ancestor Kish (as many do) then Mordercai is a contemporary of Nebuchadnezzar. If that is the case then Ahasuerus is most likely identical to the Ahasuerus mentioned in Tobit as an ally of Nebuchanezzar. This Ahasuerus is also called Achiachar generally considered indentical to Cyaxares (Akhuwakhshtra), placing the events long before Cyrus decree before the conquest of Babylon by the Persians in fact. Some will point to the description of Ahasuerus ruling from Cush to India which seems to contradict the idea that this occurs while the Babylonian empire still existed, but it is not certain which Cush this refers to - Cush in Sudan/Ethiopia or Cush in Iran. Even if Sudan is intended this could merely be a biased view of history in which Nebuchnezzar is being deliberately snubbed and portrayed as a vassal of his ally Ahasuerus. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:20, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hadashatu and other nonsense

Hadassah might look similar to Hadashatu to an English speaker but its actually completely different in Hebrew, Hadashatu is cognate of Hebrew Chadash (chet-dalet-shin) and means "new" not bride nor is it a standard title of Ishtar. In semitic languages it doesn't look anything like Hadassah (he-dalet-samech) meaning myrtle. Ishtar is not the Aramaic for Esther. There are no known Elamite deities named Humman, Uman or whataver or Mashti. Kuratowski's Ghost 22:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps Isaac Asimov let me down? How about "Ishtar and Marduk were also cousins, as Esther and Mordecai are", is that wrong? What do you have to say about this: "Humban was an Elamite god, the principal god of Elam and was known there as 'The Master of Heaven.' His first wife was the Elamite goddess Pinikir, but he later married Kiririsha, a goddess from Liyan, an Elamite port on the Lower Sea (Persian/Arabian Gulf). They had a son named Hutran." [1] Pfalstad 01:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
p347 of the Archeology of Elam by D. T. Potts has a table which lists Humban as an Elamite god, attested in various places.. Go on amazon [2] and search inside the book for "humban pantheon". Kiririsha is mentioned too but I don't know if/where she is attested. Pfalstad 02:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The name Humban is a reading that has been dismissed as far as I know as has Mashti.
Explicitly the reading is thought to be Huban, with a connection to Babylonian Humbaba being purely conjectural. Kuratowski's Ghost 11:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Moreover the H in Huban is hard, Khuban is the standard transliteration. Khumban- occurs as an element in the royal name Khumbanigash there is also an element Khumma- in royal names. Their meaning can only be conjectured at. Haman in Hebrew has a soft h trying to get Haman out of these is silly. Kuratowski's Ghost 13:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Some of the info added is simply irrelavant to the article. All the Babylonian gods and godesses are part of a close family tree making many of the some sort of cousin of each other, something which is never emphasized explicitly. Kuratowski's Ghost 11:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
The fact that Herodotus fails to mention Esther and Mordecai is irrelevant there is a lot that he doesn't mention. Kuratowski's Ghost 11:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, given that Marduka was mentioned as a Persian official in an inscription, odds are it's based on a true event.. It might be a good idea to add to the historicity section to more completely address this theory. There's a lot of stuff in the talk, but I think it's worth moving it to the article, given how common this theory is on the web and Isaac Asimov and such. Maybe also merge the historicity info in Esther and Book of Esther. Pfalstad 13:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the info should be merged into the section in Book of Esther. Mention also needs to be made of Dr Chaim Cheifetz's proposal that Omanes and Anadatos mentioned by Strabo are references to Haman and Hammedatha. Strabo describes them as deities worshipped with Anahita but no such deities are known in Persian sources, Cheifetz proposes that they are Haman and Hammedatha being worshipped as martyrs. Kuratowski's Ghost 21:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clarifying name

`Ashtoreth is the presumed cross-language Hebrew/Canaanite COGNATE correspondence to Ishtar, based on common Proto-Semitic linguistic heritage, while Esther could very well be a simple direct BORROWING from late Akkadian into Hebrew (after the `Ayin sound had disappeared from the Akkadian languages, etc.). Similarly, "Foot" is the native English cognate to the Greek word pous/pod-, while "pod-", as in "podiatrist", is a direct borrowing of this Greek cognate form into English. So there's no real conflict between `Ashtoreth and Esther. AnonMoos 19:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

See article doublet (linguistics) ... AnonMoos

This is "original research" and also flawed - there is no reason for the "sh" of Ishtar to turn into an "s" in a supposed Hebrew borrowing. Kuratowski's Ghost 03:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Dude, it is NOT "original research"!!!! For someone who knows actually something about some subjects and is not a troll, you are certainly incredibly annoying and difficult to work with. A random source that I happen to have in front of me right now is the "Dictionary of the Bible" by John L. McKenzie, and there are plenty more out there to be found without too much difficulty. Furthermore, there is plenty of reason for Akkadian Š to become Hebrew S, because the sound-values of the conventional cuneiform transcriptions were determined basically by correlating Proto-Semitic reconstructed sounds with cross-linguistic transcriptions of the second millennium B.C., and are by no means necessarily accurate phonetic literal IPA transcriptions (especially for outlying dialects, or those not of the second millennium B.C.). For example, Hebrew Sargon (with samekh) corresponds to the name which in conventional scholarly cuneiform transcription appears as Šarru-kin. AnonMoos 04:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll grant you Assyrian Akkadian (supposed) "sh" becoming "s" in Hebrew. Give a reference in the article and it will be acceptable. Kuratowski's Ghost 04:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why won't it let me put diacritics in the right order?????

Every time I try to put dagesh before sere, it automatically undoes my changes. Having the diacritics in the wrong order reduces the chances of correct browser display... AnonMoos 19:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


Esther is cool!!!!!!!!!!

[edit] Reversing the edict

The antisemitic edict was never reversed per-se, as occurs with Daniel and praying to false Gods elsewhere in the Bible, Persian royal decrees were irreversible. Ahasuares simply issued a contrary, but not exactly opposite, decree. I have editted the article to note this.

[edit] Deleted section "Talmud"

I deleted a section headed "Talmud" that contained only this string of words: "The talmud a religious text of Judaism states that where 600,000 female prophets and 600,000 male prophets yet it states only 7 of female prophet's names are known she is included in that group of 7." Since it is beyond my comprehension, I have moved it here for one more learned in kabbalistic lore to translate. ➥the Epopt 03:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Bad reasoning on name derivation

"Some critics of the historicity of the Book of Esther seized on this as evidence to support a view that the story of Esther derived from a myth about Ishtar. However, in Hebrew the goddess was referred to by the Hebrew cognate of her name - Ashtoreth. "Esther" cannot be derived directly from the latter."

The English names "Joshua" and "Jesus" both descend from the Hebrew name "Yehoshua". The fact that we got "Jesus" from "Yehoshua" does not in any way prove we didn't get "Joshua" from "Yehoshua" as well. It is by no means evidence that the name "Esther" did not descend from "Ishtar" because the name "Ashtoreth" also descended from "Ishtar". I vote to have the text in italics above removed from the article. It's pretty obvious that people taking the Bible's accuracy entirely on faith are trying to influence the content of this article by downplaying possible objections or criticisms. Wje 14:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you read the article properly, it considered the possibility that it derives from a late form of Ishtar. Kuratowski's Ghost 23:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think devoting three paragraphs that try to decipher the origin of the name 'Esther' is overkill and belongs in a separate article on the name itself and not in a 'supposed' encyclopedia article on the biblical/historical person. MapleLeaf

[edit] Vandalims

There is a lot of vandalims. I have gone back about 15 edits and still haven't found where the last non-vandalism edit starts. Could an admin help out.

[edit] Vashti Naked?

I've checked every version of the bible on Bible Gateway[3] and I can't find any that say that the king ordered his first queen, Vashti to appear naked before his guests. Does anyone have a bible that says this? --24.22.98.21 (talk) 06:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)