Wikipedia talk:Esperanza

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Notice Esperanza is officially inactive. Please send any comments about it or the essay on the front page to Wikipedia's Village pump.
Wikipedia:Esperanza is permanently protected from editing, as it is a page which should not be edited significantly for legal or other reasons.

Substantial changes should be proposed here, and made by administrators if the proposal is uncontroversial, or has been discussed and is supported by consensus. Use {{editprotected}} to attract the attention of an administrator in such cases.
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The Collaboration of the Month has been redirected to Article Creation and Improvement Drive.

The disposition of Esperanza's other programs is displayed below...

 * See also: Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User


Contents

[edit] Is community building still important?

Following Esperanza's deletion, is community building still important? The essay should answer this question - especially if the answer is yes. After all, since the essay adequately discusses the negative aspects of Esperanza (for example, the last paragraph), it fails to discuss the positive aspects of Esperanza, so someone reading the essay may get the impression that community building should not occur on Wikipedia. (If that's the case, I rest my case.) --Kaypoh 14:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Community building is important, but in Wikipedia, most discussions and the community should revlove around improving articles and policies. A downside of Esperanza was that there were areas devoted entirely to "socializing", and user page contests and barnstar brigades were a distraction from everything else. Also, the leadership, I heard was bureaucratic and is something Wikipedia is not. Those were some reasons why Esperanza was nominated for deletion back then.--Kylohk 20:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for answering my question. I think the essay should include that community building is still important but discussions and the community should revlove around improving articles and policies. --Kaypoh 05:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, community building is still important around here. Perhaps we can add a paragraph about the importance of community building, along with your suggestion about improving articles and policies. Moreover, we can add more information that would describe what Esperanza actually tried to do, as you suggested. While major aspects of ESP were bad, some parts of it did have positive effects on the community.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 15:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a historical page isn't that historical if just mentions something "has been there". A detailed chronology might be a good idea for all those who appeared to click on those green links.--Kylohk 14:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Careful, there was a conflict about the contents of this essay that lasted for months and only ended recently. My thoughts regarding community building is that it develops quite naturally as a process of collaborating with other people in the development of the encyclopedia. Please reconsider your desire to change the essay. I strongly urge you to. If you don't believe me, look at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Mediation to see just how divisive an issue this is. --Kyoko 22:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
No need at all to re-write the essay, the recent mediation into this was a painful process and as Kyoko stated - it ony ended recently, the Esparanza project is a done deal - let's put it to bed and keep it that way. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Kylohk and Kaypoh are not aware that this essay has been the subject of edit wars. Any attempt to rewrite the essay or turn it into a detailed chronology would probably re-ignite the edit wars. Nevertheless, I support the addition of a sentence (or up to a paragraph) emphasising that community building is still important, but that the encyclopedia comes first. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 07:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, a detailed chronology might not be necessary, but given that two uninvolved users were already confused about the essay, maybe we should consider their recommendations. I still stand strong on my opinion for community building and a short summary describing Esperanza's history.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If it's so confusing maybe we should put it back to the original then. There was nothing confusing about that. DevAlt 14:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I would be okay with the original essay as long as we add in some extra stuff about how Esperanza actually tried to improve the community, add sources, and still stay in check with the MfD. And why are you using an alternate account???--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 15:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, that might be going too far, but I recommend the following edit:

Its goal was to indirectly support the encyclopedia by providing support and other assistance for Wikipedians in need, and by strengthening Wikipedia's sense of community. To fulfill this goal, Esperanza initiated numerous programs, which can be seen on Wikipedia talk:Esperanza.

This would then require us to remove the sentence that I proposed earlier this month. If this edit is made, then it would reduce the amount of confusion arising from other editors. On the matter of a community building project, I propose the following paragraph:

While Esperanza was decentralized for numerous reasons as stated in the second Miscellany for deletion nomination, it should be noted that community building is still important in Wikipedia because it encourages collaboration and cooperation. A large organization is not necessary to build the community that the average editor can build him/herself with other users. In addition, a Wikipedian community should be a cooperative movement to improve the encyclopedia, not a social chatting group.

This paragraph combines the ideas from the original essay, my statements, Dev's statements, and the ideas of other editors who have participated in the debate. I hope that this will be satisfactory to all parties...-Ed ¿Cómo estás? 15:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't change the essay any further than the Steve Block version, for reasons that are obvious even on this very page. If you feel that you must state something about the community, I suggest adding this on at the very end, after the "Let this essay be a warning...":

"Despite the dissolution of Esperanza, community remains an important and even necessary part of a collaborative project such as Wikipedia. Community building should however be a byproduct of the cooperative work on the encyclopedia, rather than the primary goal of Wikipedians. Editors should also remember that Esperanza did not have a monopoly on community spirit; any person who has ever greeted or complimented another person is displaying a sense of community."

Yes, the added text has a POV, but hopefully this will address the concerns about community spirit while making it clear that the community is more than Esperanza.

And yes, I know I had said that I was ready to walk away from this essay, but I'm trying to nip this conflict in the bud. Serves me right for having a watchlist with over 2030 items. --Kyoko 16:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't support that at all. And from now on, I refuse to accept any blame whatsoever for the extension of this dispute. Everything was dead, a version was agreed upon, the mediation was closed... and Ed decided to start it up all over again. Leave the article protected and ignore him. DevAlt 16:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of wanting to avoid future conflict, that's fine with me too. People who want to understand Esperanza should make the effort actually read the MfDs anyway. I'll tell Ryan. --Kyoko 16:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not to blame here! The initial post in this discussion was not mine. Dev, what exactly do you have against a paragraph on community building?--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not blaming you, and you are correct that the discussion was initiated by other people. I decided to go along with the existing text because I don't want to see a repeat of the mediation. --Kyoko 18:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion from someone with no prior involvement in this issue but thinks it has gone on long enough: The essay here stays as is. Anyone with additional thoughts can put them on a subpage in his or her userspace, and put a link to that page here on talk. Newyorkbrad 17:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • claps* Best idea yet in this whole affair! Thanks! --Kyoko 17:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Yep, Brad got it in one there - Esparanza has finished now, we had the mediation - everyone agreed with the outcome - there is no need to show off the community in the essay - let it rest in peace. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Apparently not "everyone"...Kylohk and Kaypoh, and now me, dissent...--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Community building paragraph

On Ryan's recommendation, I'm continuing discussion regarding the addition of a paragraph that discusses community building. Kyoko's proposal above is a good example of something that we can add:

Despite the dissolution of Esperanza, community remains an important and even necessary part of a collaborative project such as Wikipedia. Community building should however be a byproduct of the cooperative work on the encyclopedia, rather than the primary goal of Wikipedians. Editors should also remember that Esperanza did not have a monopoly on community spirit; any person who has ever greeted or complimented another person is displaying a sense of community.

Because Esperanza was so closely associated with community building, we must establish the fact that community building is still important, despite Esperanza's decentralization. Dev and I have both stressed the importance of community building here, even though our thoughts about it differed at the time. Because Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and because the expansion of the encyclopedia depends solely on the contributions of its editors, semi active editors, and anons, the details describing the community's importance shouldn't be left out.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I did not expect that my question would cause such heated discussion. I am not asking you to rewrite or make major changes to the essay. I am only asking you to add one sentence or paragraph about whether community building is still important. Ed, your paragraph is good. Add it. --Kaypoh 02:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] take it to userspace

Even after the Esperanza page has been submitted to mediation, argued over, agreed upon, and protected, it is still creating conflict. I agree with Newyorkbrad that the only way to satisfy all parties is to do the following:<

1. Leave the current essay unchanged and indefinitely protected.
2. If you want to say something beyond what the current essay says, write your own text on a subpage within your own userspace.
3. Leave a link to your subpage on this talk page.

Please don't press for any changes to the main Esperanza text. It has already been the source of far too much discord. The deletion debates about Esperanza, and the further debates about how it should be described have pretty much guaranteed that Esperanza will be known more for the arguments it engendered than any good it may have done for Wikipedia. --Kyoko 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

If that is what is to be decided, then I think we should add an extra sentence to the essay saying "User written essay can be found on Wikipedia talk:Esperanza." That way, all of us can write our own essays about EA, which could then be published here.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Not published, linked to, as in Why I left Esperanza. That's an important distinction. --Kyoko 22:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
And I'm only linking that page here to illustrate what I mean. It's not the essay that I would write about Esperanza. I don't even know if I would write one. --Kyoko 22:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Declined - No user essays are going on the main page, they can go on the talk page. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
That's not what I meant. If we are going to have user essays, we should have a link from the front page to the talk page. All of the user essays will be linked from this talk page. Let it be known, however, that Kyoko and I are still discussing the matter of a community building paragraph.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Not anymore. I had submitted my paragraph suggestion on the assumption that:

1. It would be accepted by all the major participants in the mediation.
2. Its addition would be the final edit to an overly discussed page.
3. Everyone, including myself, would be able to just move on as was the intent behind the closure of Esperanza.

My submitted paragraph has already faced opposition, so it fails number 1 on that count. Furthermore, I am very concerned that if the essay is unprotected for further editing, that will only open the way for more drastic and more controversial changes.

I am unwilling to participate in any further discussion about changes to the essay. I can't speak for other people, but thanks to the MfDs, the deletion review, the drawn out mediation, and the attempts to reopen the discussion, Esperanza has caused me far more stress than it has alleviated. I don't want to subject myself to any more stress on its account. Please leave the essay alone and let the whole matter rest. --Kyoko 21:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Kyoko, let me remind you that I already have deminstrated that all of us are in agreement with the paragraph. I have inferred this from the various statements and edits that everyone participating in this debate made. --Ed ¿Cómo estás? 22:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Stupid me for keeping this on my watchlist: DevAlt said she didn't agree to the paragraph. Goodbye. --Kyoko 22:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but DevAlt really hasn't said anything in the past few weeks, has she? What a shame...it's a pity that she doesn't have the guts to explain herself.--Ed ¿Cómo estás? 22:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You're pushing it, Ed. —  $PЯINGrαgђ  12:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar/style issue

{{editprotected}} The last sentence of the essay says:

This essay serves as a warning to all editors that existing projects must be open and transparent to all editors at all times, not to be overly hierarchical lest they are to meet a similar fate as Esperanza.

The ending is poor style and includes grammar issues. It should say:

This essay serves as a warning to all editors that existing projects must be open and transparent to all editors at all times, not to be overly hierarchical lest they are to meet a fate similar to Esperanza's.

Thank you. --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 10:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Y Done ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 01:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seeking copy-editors

I am a 16-year-old Singaporean and a near-native speaker of English. Since joining Wikipedia in February 2006, I have made over 2500 edits, which include writing a GA - I Not Stupid - and three DYKs - Money No Enough, The Best Bet and Megan Zheng.

In school, I usually score A1s in English - I topped my school in English last year and almost repeated that feat this year. Nevertheless, I know that my English still needs considerable polishing; my sentence structures are awkward and I struggle with the more subtle aspects of English grammar. Contributing to Wikipedia has helped me further improve my writing skills and command of English to a certain extent.

I am looking for a copy-editor who:

  • Is a native speaker of British English. It goes without saying that the copy-editor's command of English should be far better than mine, and since I contribute to Singapore-related articles, and Singapore was once a British colony, British English should be used in Singapore-related articles.
  • Has actively contributed to the English Wikipedia for at least three months and made at least 1000 edits. This criterion ensures that the copy-editor is reasonably familiar with Wikipedia's content policies.
  • Has an IRC (freenode), MSN Messenger or Google Talk account, logs in to it almost every day and is not afraid to disclose the account to me. If I want a copy-editor to look through articles I write, I could simply file a request with the League of Copyeditors, although they usually take a long time to respond to requests. Having copy-editing done in real-time through instant messaging has several advantages. There are times when the copy-editor may need me to clarify the intended meaning of a sentence or provide some background information or context. Moreover, the copy-editor could explain why a sentence is grammatically incorrect, instead of just correcting the error.
  • Is aged between 16 and 25 (inclusive) and friendly. Singaporeans are notorious for focusing on the result rather than the process, but I will do my best to avoid being a slave-driver. The copy-editor should be a friend, not just a copy-editor, and should be able to explain to me the more subtle aspects of English grammar in an easy-to-understand manner.

Anyone who meets the above criteria and is interested should post on my talk page, where we can make the necessary arrangements (such as exchanging IRC/MSN/GTalk handles).

--J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 15:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New community proposal: m:Wikicommunity

Please see m:Wikicommunity for a proposal for a new Wikicommunity. This one would not be on Wikipedia itself; it would be a whole new wiki within the Wikimedia aegis. If you would like to signify interest in this project, please put your name at m:Proposals_for_new_projects#Wikicommunity. Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of sentence

I recommend deletion of this sentence: "This essay serves as a warning to all editors that existing projects must be open and transparent to all editors at all times, not to be overly hierarchical lest they are to meet a fate similar to Esperanza's." It seems inappropriate to include such an imperative since consensus was not reached on adding such a thing to policy as far as I can tell; consensus can change; and there were other reasons cited for deleting Esperanza besides transparency and hierarchical structure.

Failing that, I think we should put the standard essay template up there, warning that it "contains the advice and/or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. It is not a policy or guideline, and editors are not obliged to follow it." Why is this page still protected, anyway? It seems unnecessary. Sarsaparilla (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have an idea

Request delete Esperanza and make a new Esperanza on http://www.editthis.info or at http://request.wikia.com . Iswatch20 (talk) 08:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It was suggested during the original deletion, but there wasn't really enough support for it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Remove interwiki link

Please remove the simple interwiki link, as it was deleted over there, thanks. 68.2.110.48 (talk) 00:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 01:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In regards to the historical bar at the top

WP:ACID is now inactive. WEBURIEDOURSECRETSINTHEGARDEN tell me a joke... 21:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 21:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)