Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive 5

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Wikipedia:Esperanza is now inactive. Please do not edit the contents of this page. This page is an archive. Discussion of the essay describing Wikipedia:Esperanza should be directed to Wikipedia talk:Esperanza. To discuss any issues found in this archive, please direct any additional comments to the Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals).

Contents 1 Your feedback wanted 2 Calendar 3 The Esperanza IRC Channel 4 Goodbye all 5 Alerts page 6 Members list 7 Ryan Norton 8 Need some advice 9 John Kerry 10 Wikipedia 11 Can I join? 12 Apparition 13 Happy Thanksgiving Esperanza! 14 Hopelessly affected 15 Here we go again 16 Elections 17 Resignation 18 Update 19 Wikipedia:Stressbusters 20 Esperanza will fail if.. 21 Need advice

[edit] Your feedback wanted

Just a friendly reminder that we have several new proposals listed at WP:ESP/P. We'd all appreciate it if you could give your feedback and opinions regarding these possibilities for Esperanza. Many thanks, and enjoy the rest of your wiki-day! :-) Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk | W_S 20:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Calendar

I played around with the calendar today, fixing the headers and splitting it up into month subpages. We can list the current month's page in Esperanza's main talk page now... comments? Titoxd^(?!?) 03:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Esperanza IRC Channel

I've seen some mention around here of an IRC channel specially for Esperanza. I hear it's quite empty, and would love to check it out. Now, when I click on the link provided, I get an error message which says:"IRC Not a registered protocol". Is there anything I can do about that? Thanks Banes 16:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you get that error message because you don't have any IRC software installed. Try mIRC or, if you use Firefox, you could try the Chatzilla extension. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 17:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. Banes 05:39, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Goodbye all

I thought I might say goodbye to you all and thanks for letting me be a member of your project. — Moe ε 21:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alerts page

Wikipedians, the alert page is disturbingly large. I cannot do this all on my own, and would like some help please :-) --HappyCamper 01:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Which alert page are you referring to? -- Francs2000 01:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe he's talking about Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts. Titoxd^(?!?) 01:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

And I didn't even know that existed. Blimey! -- Francs2000 02:34, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

What do people do about high-stress alerts usually, I am getting very sick of Wikipedia recently, so perhaps I will find outVoice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 02:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Well what I do about high stress personally is that I stop doing admin things and start creating things. With high stress in other people it depends on the person. What can we do to make your experience better? -- Francs2000 02:34, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, so I took a bunch of time and revamped the whole structure of the page to make it more pleasing to the eye. The organization is also better. However, the downside is that it is a bit harder to add a name, and then make comments. Check it out, and let me know what you think!. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 03:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks great at the moment. Good job! I must just say that I find it rather depressing, looking at some of those names. Banes 08:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello all, yes I'm back from leaving Wikipedia for all who want to know. Anyways, I made a adjustment, again, to the stress alerts page. The style of the table was really complicated. Any comments? — Moe ε 17:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Members list

Today I also organized the members list a little. I went by the stress page and recategorized the members on the list into members on wikibreak and the member's who are possibly leaving. — Moe ε 19:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ryan Norton

I just realized Ryan Norton was in Tranche B of the Advisory Committee of Esperanza. Since he apparently left Wikipedia, who is going to replace him in the Committee? — Moe ε 22:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'm waiting to see if he decides to come back. If not, December 31 is not that far away. -- Essjay · Talk 01:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think/hope that he'll come back. We'll see, I suppose.--Sean|Black 01:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I just talked to RN and he is not planning to come anytime soon. He is still too mad on a few users. He is editing strongly in Meta wiki though and maybe u can convince him to come back --JAranda | watz sup 23:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Does Ryan have another user page I can contact him on or does he just edit on Meta? — Moe ε 00:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Need some advice

A user altered my signature on vote for deletion page. I got a message that my signature was hosing up a page but the page was not mentioned in the message. The message sender has not voted on the vote for deletion page yet. I did not immediately check that but just have. Could be the creator of that page is a little out of sorts but can't say for sure.It is bugging me but I don't want to start a fuss. This isn't kosher on wikipedia is it?-Dakota ^{t e 01:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)}

^{I wouldn't think too much of it, he probably was going to vote into a random AFD page you've voted on and he saw that the font tags were not open. He came to you to bring a problem to your attention so you would fix it, and you've fixed it now... don't start a fuss, it's not worth a fuss. While willfully manipulating other users' signature is vandalism, this seems in good faith. Titoxd(?!?) 01:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] John Kerry

I'd like to dialog with you on my talk page about this. If you are interested, please let me know. Rex071404^{(all logic is premise based)} 08:58, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you looking for community feedback regarding the article? You should probably try a RfC; Esperanza deals mainly with community support and hope, not with writing articles. While we're all editors and authors, that's not the goal of Esperanza. If it's anything else, please detail it more here. Many thanks. Flcelloguy ( A note? ) 14:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I have protected the page due to a "1st Purple Heart" edit war between him and the other John Kerry editors. And, yes, this does belong elsewhere...Voice of All ^{T|@|Esperanza} 20:22, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia

I know this isn't the best place to list this problem but it is stressing me out. All over Wikipedia, I keep on seeing <center> and <div> tags that are misplaced. The first place I noticed it, my user page. If you look at it you will see <center> tags all around that weren't there before. No one edited my user page except me. Please, anyone, tell me whats going on. — Moe ε 22:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a problem with the HTML parsing; it's most noticeable around non-standard signatures, but the problems are cropping up everywhere (look at this page, for instance). Kirill Lokshin 22:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you know when this will be fixed? — Moe ε 22:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

No idea. There's a notice on AN stating that HTML Tidy is disabled, so what we're seeing is actually malformed HTML code that used to be kept hidden; anyplace it's visible should probably be checked for errors. Kirill Lokshin 22:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, thanks anyways, hope this gets fixed inthe near future. — Moe ε 23:04, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Can I join?

Please can I join? --{{subst:user|4836.03}} 10:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Most certainly, you are very welcome to join Esperanza. All you need to do is add you name to the members list. Banes 10:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Apparition

uhh, ok. — Moe ε 21:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Thanksgiving Esperanza!

— Moe ε 18:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Hear hear! Banes 18:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, everyone have a great vegetarian thanksgiving! --Celestianpower ^hablamé 19:48, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Darn, so much for that turkey then! R.I.P. — Moe ε 23:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hopelessly affected

Woohoo! 32,000 edits to en.wikipedia! Right, now I'm off for the weekend... -- Francs2000 00:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Here we go again

FYI, the week-long protection was hardly lifted before the childish vandalism of the high school articles for 3 of the Henrico County Public Schools resumed. From IP addresses, of course. Vaoverland 08:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Elections

Just to give a heads up, elections are coming up for the terms ending December 31, including Tranche B of the Advisory Committee, and the Admin General's term. I'd like to start elections by mid-December, so we will have replacements ready before the terms end, and they can be shown about some. The format will be the same as the last time, so candidates, be thinking about whether or not you want to run, and if so, start prepping a candidate statement. I'll open nominations on Dec. 1 with any luck. -- Essjay · Talk 01:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Is our Admin General running for re-election? Titoxd^(?!?) 02:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely, positively not. Esperanza needs some new blood, and a more active admin general. I'm not even sure I'll be a Wikipedian by the end of the year. -- Essjay · Talk 01:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Argh. That would be a true loss to both Esperanza and Wikipedia in general... Titoxd^(?!?) 01:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The same guy can't be general two years in a row, and Essjay isn't in his boat alone. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 03:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• For the sake of specificity that means that Essjay, RedWolf24, and myself are all ineligible to run for the 2006 Admin Gen position. -JCarriker 06:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

For clarification, when you say "nominations", that includes self-nominations, right? Or do you want to have some sort of "I nominate this great editor for the post of Admin Gen" process? (I'm asking for two reasons: the first, there hasn't been an Admin General election, and second, Esperanza has grown quite a lot since the last election in October, so the new users might not be up to speed on what's going on. Titoxd^(?!?) 02:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer it all be done by selfnomination, but "I nominate..." will be accepted as long as the candidate accepts. -- Essjay · Talk 16:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Resignation

I hereby tender my resignation as Administrator General, effective immediatley. The Advisory Council should coordinate the election of my successor, and the office should remain vacant until the end of December. -- Essjay · Talk 17:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I am going to remove the notice on the front page, atleast the part about rallying to bring him back. He doesn't want back, so get off his God damn nuts. He doesn't need your crap. I'm not trying to be mean, but he just wants out. Let him go, none of us will be here forever anyway. Well now what are we going to do without an Admin. General? Quentin Pierce 01:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Find out who wants to take over or run for the post.--MONGO 01:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't particularly care for the way Private Butcher put it, but Essjay has requested we leave him alone, so let's acquiesce and just let him go in peace. Hermione1980 01:47, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to get the point across that he should be left alone. Yes, I had to do it bluntly like that, because some people will still mess with him, even though he wants to be left alone. It's sickening that these people can't even be respectful to each other. Quentin Pierce 01:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Quentin - your heart is in the right place, but the whole point of Esperanza is to let people know that we care, and that wiki has its up-sides too. Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 02:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I want to apologize for being a dick myself. I understand we should let them know we care, but isn't wishing them luck doing the same thing. We shouldn't make people come back, you can't force them. You should just let them go. But I was being an ass too, so I apologize to everyone here and elsewhere. I think they should just be respectful though and just let him leave if he wants to, but at least make his goodbye a good one. Quentin Pierce 02:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of resignations, I've resigned from being a normal member of Esperanza. The Esperanza project has now bothered me after what has happened with Essjay and what not, and the notice on the front page of Esperanza. This place isn't like what they claim to be. So, adieu Esperanzans, I will never be one of you. Quentin Pierce 02:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Update

Could I ask that all Esperanzians participate in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/December 2005 elections? Thanks! In addition, I know we haven't been too active lately, and I do apologize for that. I will try and make Esperanza more active soon, including organizing Appreciation Week. More details on that later, but for right now, please join in our discussion at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/December 2005 elections. Thanks a lot! Flcelloguy (A note?) 16:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Stressbusters

Hi all!. I was looking all over Wikipedia, randomly of course, and I came across a project called Wikipedia:Stressbusters. I am suggesting that the Stressbusters be merged with this project. Stressbusters only has one member.

I also have another suggestion, of course. I am also think of merging Esperanza/Stress Unit and Stressbusters into Esperanza/Stressbusters. That way, Stressbusters is still a on Wikipedia and the Stress Unit gets to stem-off into thier own sorta project. What do you think? — Moe ε 03:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess since no one cares, Im going to merge the Stress Unit and Stressbusters together. — Moe ε 14:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you should wait, as the original proposal has only been up for little over 10 hours. FireFox 14:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, I can wait. — Moe ε 15:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm by no means calling it a bad idea, but just wait for a little longer so more people can read (and comment on if they wish) this proposal. FireFox 15:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

My comment is "good idea", I have already joined the stressbusters. Banes 16:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Good enough for me, I merged Stressbusters into the Stress Unit. Sorry Banes, your already a member of the former stress unit so I cant readd you to the Wikipedia:Esperanza/Stressbusters. — Moe ε 01:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanza will fail if..

..it looses its primary focus on recognizing ignored wikipedians and comforting those under a lot of stress, and it is coming close to doing so. There is too much colloquium and not enough actions of compassion and care. The fact that an Admin Gen quit and two board members have gone missing is not a good sign that Esperanza is doing what it was designed to do. I decided to conduct an experiment to see how quickly someone would respond to a more direct frustration and moved my name to the former members list with the edit summary "I just don't feel welcome here anymore," again no one said or did anything. Since no one seems to care contest the idea that I'm persona non grata here and that I went with a high stress level 5 from Nov 7—Nov 24 with no assitance or comfort from Esperanza, I've decided to take the hint and make the removal permanent. What use is Esperanza if it begins to mirror the exact same flaws in the general community that lead to Esperanza's founding? Essjay quit, two board members are gone, several others have quit, and now Esperanza has lost the member that's user space originally housed it. Esperanzians need to take a step back and take a good look at Esperanza before it becomes nothing more than a social club with failed objectives. -JCarriker 00:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

IMO Esperanza has failed miserably - Essjay has left, I thought Esperanza's purpose was to prevent that kind of thing. Izehar (talk) 00:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

That is it's purpose. We tried to get Essjay to stay. It didn't work, unfortuneatly. But he's right, we haven;t been very active lately- I hope that after the December elections we'll get the ball rolling again.--Sean|Black 00:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Before Esperanza I used to check what links here for the level 4 stress picture. I made several friends this way (including Jay). Esperanza has a lot of tools for finding stressed users and I haven't been using them much, I've been busy with the medcom. But JCarriker's right, we need to find the stressed users and help them out (see WP:ESP/A). Redwolf24 (talk) Attention Washingtonians! 00:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I take it back, Esperanza IS a colossal failure. You can't even see what's right infront of you. Goodbye. -JCarriker 23:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

My stress-level has been very high for months now as well. So far I have not heard from a single Esperanza member any comfort, even though I have been here since the early days. But am I blaming anyone really? No. Because I try to give more and be there for people, while I'm busy with other work. It is admittedly hard sometimes to stay on top of things, however I am still glad this forum exists and again, if anyone needs me, they are free to contact me obviously. However it is indeed difficult to constantly check to see how others are doing, when one oneself is sometimes sinking with work.... (this is because of things in the real world right now, not connected to Wikipedia) but I would still stay true to the principles of Esperanza to be there for users in distress. One needs to come forward and ask too, instead of sitting around and waiting for something to happen. Gryffindor 00:32, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful not to cast what is sounding an awful lot like blame onto the members of Esperanza. Yes, life is tough, and yes, there are people here who are under a good deal of stress. But my guess is very few people who have joined Esperanza know how to help someone who is dealing with that stress. I sureashell wouldn't know what to say to most people. I'm also wondering how many people joined Esperanza not because they wanted to help other people out but because they themselves needed looking after. I put myself in that slot. Let's not forget that we're all volunteers here and that there are (for all intents and purposes) no experts. We just have to do the best with what we have. Denni ☯ 03:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

With respect, I know life is hard: I have to chew on the right side of my mouth because I can't afford to have a broken molar fixed that's on the left (about a 3 months of groceries), and I live in constant fear of failing my classes despite making A's on tests because I have had continuous pain and occasional instability (meaning I can't stand or walk sometimes) in my legs for eight years leading, which causes to “excessive” absences, not to mention rotating unstable sleep cycle. I’ve been here since June 2003, and I still not appreciated. I have good reason to feel like a second class citizen just compare the response to me leaving with people that have only been here a few months. I don’t work IRC or the mailing list, and I don’t have the economic resources or the good fortune to live near any meet up locations, so I always lag (I have been ignored on talk pages) behind other users no matter how hard I try, and I’m sick of it. There is obviously something wrong with me to still be such an outsider after years of activity. The blame lies there, and with no one else and as soon as I finish my commitments to Jmabel and Llywrch, I’m leaving. I don’t think many of ya’ll think it much of a loss anyway. -JCarriker 09:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I can empathise there with you 100%. I don't take part in mailing list discussions or IRC because I don't have time, I don't understand them anyway and nine times out of ten tend to get ignored. And I 100% feel left out the vast majority of the time on Wikipedia (see the notice on my talk page). But I'm a stubborn bastard and hang around in spite of that because I get something else out of beating vandals over the head with spades: the satisfaction of a job well done. It sucks that I feel ignored and can totally understand and empathise with the large number of editors who end up leaving: I can do what I can to make them stay and stick it out, but at the end of the day if the sense of belonging is only there for the select few rather than the majority I can't blame you for going. -- Francs2000 12:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

• My recommendation to all is to find a topic of great interest to you and start writing articles. They don't even have to be good...so long as they are neutral and as factual as you can make them. I have found that when I tire of vandal patrol or working around the hostile environment of AfD, I can always find solice in writing my little articles on land management areas such as National Forests and the like. The best way to truly enjoy Wikipedia is to contribute in namespace by article creation and help out in the admin type areas as you feel up to it. Balance is the key. I find researching for articles is educational and rewarding as you start something and you finish it...or at least get it better than where it once was...and this task completion is a strong motivator. Just a thought...happy editing!--MONGO 03:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Agreed. When I look back at my contribs and see nothing but rollback and Wikipedia: space stuff, I head for that random article button and start editing- Always brightens my spirits.--Sean|Black 03:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree completely. The stress is too much to continually do one thing, and Wikipedia is big enough that you don't have to. I see no reason to put myself in a high-stress situation if it can be avoided. I like working on AfDs, and thumping out vandals, but I'm not actively looking for people to get angry with me. I tend to vary what I'm working on, both so I can keep interested, and to spread what goodness I can to other parts that are in need, such as missing articles, or stubs, or disambig fixing, or the numerous others, even (gasp) article writing. It may be wrong of me to leave the stressful issues to other editors, but I think the great part of the wiki is that none of us have to be alone, and if you take these two AfDs, I'll take these two, and we can work together to make it better. If Wikistress has you down, just start working on something you love. Noone says you have to be a metapedian, but if you want to, more power t' ya. Good luck and best wishes to all. I am available when you need me. -Mysekurity^{(have you seen this?)} 05:16, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Same here. Whenever I feel like taking out stress, whether it is Wiki-stress or stress in real life, I go whacking vandals; if I get tired of it, I go work on geology articles or tropical cyclone articles. It is impossible to do just one thing without getting worn out. It is refreshing to hang out with another group of editors, with different perspectives. That said, the beauty of the Wiki (and Esperanza) is that you know you're not alone, you can always ask for help here. Titoxd^{(?!? - did you read this?)} 05:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Need advice

Need some advice from another Esperanzan. Never had this problem before. I reverted the Leon Trotsky page twice this evening because of pov and this ip User:70.111.10.89 put a note on my talk page asking me why. I answered that it was strong statements and could they cite sources. Later another message from new User:J.R. Hercules that "edits have now been sourced". If the ip and J.R. Forester are the same then he/she is well above the 3 revert rule. I have not recieved an answer from the logged in user yet. My question is if they are the same does the 3 revert rule apply?--Dakota ^{t e} 07:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

From this edit, I can be fairly sure taht he is indeed the same person. I only count two reverts to a particular revision, though. But to answer your question: yes, the 3RR still applies in that case. To be completely sure, though, ask at WP:AN for a CheckUser. Titoxd^{(?!? - did you read this?)} 07:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)