Talk:Espresso machine
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This is a very weak article characterised by the statement "An espresso machine forces water ... at 9 bar of pressure". My research, starting from a point of ignorance, tells me that a good or professional result requires at least 15 bar. I believe that millions consider making espresso art and I visited here to understand that. It did nothing for me. I love Wikipedia but this time I'm disappointed. This article needs more on technique and passion. --Tatty 12:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Comments
I agree. There are some glaring omissions. Your reference to pressure is one of them. Steam driven machines such as stovetop espresso machines and home espresso machines without pumps typically run hotter (212+F or 100+C) and only get to a maximum of 3 bars of pressure. No reference is made to this consideration which changes the flavor of the final product siginficantly. Also, no reference to the fact that the La Pavoni machine is considered to be the machine of choice in certain circles because the resistance of the lever gives feedback to the user that is unavailable in any other device. The lever grants an additional degree of freedom in controlling the brewing process. No reason is given for tamping the coffee. By most references I have seen the given ideal temperature is too hot. No mention of the off taste given by aluminum stovetop machines. No no mention of the variety of beans with respect to crema (robusta beans produce better crema than arabica). StateOfTheUnion 10:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments
As far as proper pressure goes, I'd refer to David Schomer of Espresso Vivace for reference. He's one of the leading experts on formalizing the process of brewing espresso. Since I can't reference his book Espresso Coffee: Professional Techniques directly here, I'd point you out to the following page: http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/factors.html, where he lists the "correct" pressure as 8.2 bars. In his book, he states 9. I have no idea where you call for "at least 15", but citing that would be useful. I own a Livia 90, and the machine is factory set to about 10-11 bars. You get more crema with higher pressure (which is good), but many people report better taste by tuning the machine to a lower pressure.
As for the ideal temperature, that actually varies by the bean you are using, where again David S claims 203 degrees gives the best results. Many of the higher end espresso makers deliver temperatures in this range. It may be neccesary for Heat Exchange units to "temperature surf" (release some water from the heat exchange) before extracting a shot.
As far as robusta vs. arabica: That's why many espressos are blends, but they use very little robusta (10-15% tops).
Overall, I get the sense the authors of this article are not 'coffee geeks'.
Please check out http://www.coffeegeek.com/
[edit] Reponse:
The 9 bars is the number that I have seen in references as well. I have never seen a 15 bar espresso machine.
I looked at David Schomer's site http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/factors.html and he says "My roast tastes best at 203 degrees F." I think that his comment is telling. In his article "The Keys to the Church" (http://www.espressovivace.com/archives/9704ct.html) he writes about how certain coffee beans seem to make at better espresso at 203F, but he avoids making a blanket statement that all espresso is best brewed at 203F. In some of his older articles on his site, he claims that 195F is best (http://www.espressovivace.com/archives/9102col.html). Perhaps a mention of a traditional 195F with a mention that this is a rule of thumb and that some specific espresso coffees vendors have recommended other temperatures for certain types of coffee would be appropriate?
And I agree wholeheartedly with your summary that that the article was not written by "coffee geeks." StateOfTheUnion 01:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Stovetop espresso machines
Removed "...the coffee is brewed with boiling water, causing overextraction and a characteristic burnt taste." This is pure POV and if it happens, it just means that you left the pot on the stove for too long. If you use it right, your coffee will not taste burnt. Lupo 09:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Response
Respectfully, all matters of "taste" beyond sweet/salty/sour/bitter are subejctive, and therefore point of view. Simply stating that "coffee has a distinctive taste" is, by this reasoning, point of view. I think it would be fair to correct the article to read "... which some claim causes overextraction and characteristic burnt taste", but removing it entirely removes a widely held point of view (which should be documented.) WanderingHermit 06:44, 1 Aug 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the reference to boiling water is a nod to the fact that higher temperature removes extractables from coffee more quickly. Automatic drip and pump driven espresso machines normally keep the water close to, but below the boiling point (around 195F). The reason for this is that the extractables that come out at lower temperatures are not as bitter as the extractables that readily come out of ground coffee at the boiling point. It is also notable that even at lower temperature these more bitter extractables will come out of coffee if enough time and water is used. I contend that the word "burnt" is perhaps the wrong descriptor and perhaps "bitter" would be more approriate. I also contend that this is not POV because it is a characteristic of the coffee extraction process and is a consideration in the design and operation of pump driven espresso machines (The temperature of the water is intentionally set to limit but not eliminate the amount of bitters extracted). Steam pressure driven espresso machines (like the stovetop machine) use steam as a driving force. No consideration is made to the effect of temperature on the extraction process. POV in this case is whether bitter coffee is preferable to less bitter coffee. StateOfTheUnion 13:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
In the stovetop espresso maker section, I am not entirely sure what was intended with the statement, "Sometimes they are referred to as Spain coffee makers." so I changed the sentence to read, "Sometimes they are referred to as Spanish coffee makers or in Spanish as a cafeteria." Because this is an implied reference to the fact that stovetop espresso makers are the predominant home coffee making machine in Spain, I added Spain to the beginning of this section (along with Italy) as areas where stovetop espresso makers enjoy common usage. StateOfTheUnion 10:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Grounds?
I thought one of the most important elements when making espresso was the quality and fineness of the grind. You can't use a percolator grind in an espresso machine and expect the same quality, can you?. Is the information about the fineness of the grind in there and I just missed it, or is it completely missing? Still 16:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] a commercial advert ?
Why does this line, below, sound like an advert for one (very minor) manufacture? "One example of this is the Super Automatic Aroma 3500 Espresso Machine from HLF Design in Italy that is popular in Hollywood." It contributes nothing of substance to the article, yet this Wikipedia link is displayed quite prominently on this product's distributor's home page (http://espresso-etc.com/index.html#). I suggest the line be deleted.Kemailer 18:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The handpresso advert should also be deleted User:nielsle 29 Feb 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 09:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Heating Element et al
I notice a lot of space given to the pressure mechanism, but based on my reading (I'm looking for my first pump driven model now) there seams to be just as much concern about the heating element (and also "pressurized portafilters" the portafilter page seam sadly lacking too...) obviously single/double boiler systems are a big distinction, but apparently there is debate with regards to the advantages of boiler/thermostat systems as opposed to thermoblocks (I'm not sure if there are any other systems out now) also seams like some consideration should be given to milk steaming mechanisms since there are a flood of "frothing aids" shipped with (or permanently attached to) most consumer level espresso makers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tletnes (talk • contribs) 20:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
