Talk:Esperanto grammar

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[edit] Gender

Removed the following because gender is not used in the commonly accepted linguistic sense:

although it does assume the male gender for many of its nouns, forcing the use of a special affix to refer a noun to the female equivalent (thus, in Esperanto, a sister is defined as a "female brother"; this male bias as served as the source of criticism of Esperanto)
Isn't it still true as an example of sexism, having the male as the norm? As far as I have understood, a sister is a "female brother", where a brother is not a "male brother/sibling". Rather, the sentence should be rewritten.

Probably the treatment of the inherent gender of some root words (nearly all family relationship words) and the use of affixes ge-, -in, vir- should be moved to a section of a new article on Esperanto semantics. --Jim Henry 23:19, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I expanded on gender and moved it under Esperanto vocabulary for now, as I'm not writing a semantics article.
As to the earlier point, "female brother" isn't a good translation for Esperanto fratino, any more than "female stallion" is a good translation of English mare. kwami 05:06, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think what he was trying to get at was that male sex is automatically assumed and in order to make a ord feminine, one takes the masculine and adds the female ending. 98.27.171.83 (talk) 00:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Sixteen rules"

I removed "Esperanto has a regular grammar (sixteen rules without many exceptions)", since the sixteen rules are not even close to a description of the grammar. They're just a "quick reference sheet" for people already familiar with Latin-like languages (and aren't even all concerned with grammar). Brion VIBBER, Tuesday, April 30, 2002

I'd be tempted to stick them in somewhere, for their historical value, adding some language about them being a traditional description that assumes a background in European languages.--Chris 23:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree. They're still how Eo is promoted, and they do a pretty good job too. kwami 00:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant bit about orthography

These sentences:

"The alphabet includes new letters that are not found on any national keyboard, which is overcome by use of the h-system, x-system, or Unicode. (See Esperanto orthography.) Other languages, like Chinese, have similar problems."

seem to be irrelevant in this article. I reckon we should delete them. --Jim Henry | Talk 17:59, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

this belongs in Esperanto IMHO MarSch 13:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Similar text was removed from Esperanto and put into Esperanto orthography instead when Esperanto was going through peer review. I don't think we should add it back; it's trivia compared to most of the other material in the already fairly long (just under 32KB) Esperanto main article. --Jim Henry | Talk 17:45, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that this had been removed and then someone had put something similar back in. I tried cutting out the less relevant stuff, but you're right, it really doesn't belong here at all. However, I don't remember the orthography article mentioning that the reason for creating Esperanto-unique letters was to avoid problems with nationalism: the Esperanto alphabet is clearly based on Czech, but different enough to avoid appearances of bias. Whoever removes this paragraph might want to mention something like this in the orthography article. --kwami 23:44, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Feel free to add material to Esperanto orthography explaining Zamenhof's reasons for creating unique letters, especially if you can find a source or quote to support it. But it doesn't belong here. --Jim Henry | Talk 19:35, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I wasn't aware there is also Esperanto orthography. It should clearly go there. MarSch 12:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] edits; "infixes"

I'm filling in a few details of the grammar. One change in wording I think I should justify, since there's a lot of confusion about it. Esperanto has no infixes. An infix is an affix that is placed within a root or stem, not merely a suffix followed by another suffix. If the participle of esper- were *espanter-o, that would be an infix. Esper-ant-o is merely a root followed by two suffixes. Infixes are generally rather uncommon in the world's languages, though they are plentiful in Tagalog and Khmer. --kwami

[edit] sources of vocab

The basic vocab is almost entirely Latinate and Germanic. There is only a handful of direct Slavic or Greek borrowings. (That is, words that were taken directly from Slavic or Greek, rather than through Latinate or Germanic languages that had borrowed them.) --kwami

I heard that most of the original Slavic borrowings had been changed to Germanic and Latinate equivalents in language reforms. Anyone knows anything else about this?
Pretty sure that is not correct. Don't have my sources with me, but I remember Zamenhof's original basic vocubulary of 900 or so roots only a dozen or so Slavic words: kolbaso, kaĉo, svati, etc. Reforms are resisted pretty strongly, since there's a history of them creating chaos. A couple of the original Slavic words may be a bit archaic (e.g. svati "to match make"), but I have heard & read several times that all of Zamenhof's basic vocabulary is still considered basic to the language.
What you may have heard about is the difference between what Zamenhof first dreamed up as a student, before he knew any English, versus what he finally published a decade (?) later. In its original conception, the language had more noun cases, the verbs inflected for person, and used <w> for modern <v>. It wouldn't surprise me if it also had more Slavic vocab at this stage. But none of the published Slavic vocab has ever been removed. — kwami 23:34, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Have now moved this to its own article, Esperanto vocabulary. kwami

[edit] source for Zamenhof's "regret"?

I'm curious about the source of "Also to Zamenhof's regret, a limited number of adverbs do not end with -e." Is this supported? Zamenhof went out of his way to create an indefinite part-of-speech ending, -aŭ, for words like hodiaŭ that could be used as adverbs, prepositions, or nouns, and where most people would have difficulty deciding when to use -e. (Unlike adjectives, verbs, or nouns, adverbs aren't a semantically coherent part of speech.) If he did regret making this decision, he could always have started using the -e ending instead, as you will occasionally see: anstate, hodie, apene, etc. The fact that Zamenhof almost never bothered to do this makes me doubt that he regretted his decision. It's not like the choice of a particular ending is required by the grammar, unlike adjectival agreement.

If this isn't supported in Zamenhof's writings, I think we should remove the "regret" wording and instead give the reasons for the "special" adverbs. --kwami 00:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] editing

I'm editing the article, adding a few examples, and moving a couple sections (participles, grammar examples) to help it flow a bit better.

One example I'd given earlier was the correlative neniel (nohow). Someone "corrected" this to "in no manner". However, no one ever says "in no manner"! "Nohow" has been used in formal writing for centuries. Here's an illustration from the OED:

1775 in Lett. Earl Malmesbury: A course of habitual improvement which nohow else is to be acquired.

I put "nohow" back, along with the other colloquial translation, "no way". — kwami 23:13, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] need help with diphthongs

I wrote that the Esperanto phonemes are based on Polish [they are remarkably close; Espo nj and ĉj even correspond to Polish ń and ć, and kz suggests that Esperanto was designed with regressive voicing assimilation ([gz]) in mind], but I'm unable to verify the diphthongs. Can someone verify or falsify my claim? Also, if Esperanto ŭ ends up corresponding to Polish ł, we'd need to verify that ł can only close a syllable after a and e to have a match with Esperanto.

Thanks! --kwami 12:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I'm no expert in polish language, but it seems to me that polish ń and ć are a subset of the possible pronounciations of nj and ĉj (I think they are pronounced more in the "front" of the mouth than the usual Esperanto pronounciation).
Regarding ŭ, this is definitly not true. ł developed out of normal l and occurs for example in the name of the polish town Wrocław. However, belarusian has a corresponding sound and letter (see U-breve), but I cannot tell whether it only occurs in the off-glide of diphthongs. --Schuetzm 14:51, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Does Polish then not have any diphthongs? As for the <ł>, I only meant restrictions as an offglide. I'll try looking into Belorussian, though. Thanks! kwami 18:11, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] introduction heading

I removed the introduction heading once. I see that it's back. Its existence makes it so the first thing you see is the ToC. Perhaps you have turned that off in your prefs or something, but if you take a look around the wiki, you will find that few other pages do it this way. -MarSch 12:48, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take it out. The only reason I put it in was to make editing easier, but I see your point. kwami 20:52, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] question, new article

Are people comfortable with the example,

la abeloj havas felon, sed ili ne taŭgas por karesi (Bees have fur, but are not good for petting) ?

Personally, I would say this in the singular in Esperanto, despite the English plural, but I'm on unsure footing here.

Also, the article is getting a bit long. I suggest we move the sections on vocabulary and word formation (affixes) to a new article on Esperanto vocabulary. I'll do this if it seems alright with people, unless one of you would prefer to. --kwami 10:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've compiled the vocabulary article. kwami

[edit] Esper-ent-o

According to the article, -ent is a suffix. AFAIK, prezident-o is an import from European languages, with a restricted meaning over that of prezid-ant-o. They are closely related etymologically, but from a syntactic point of view they are unrelated. There may have been proposals for -ent- (reference) but they have no currency. If you need a tenseless active participle, you use -ant- or try another way.

-ent is sometimes considered a sort of pseudo-suffix, but you're right. kwami 11:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I wondeer if this section should be deleted, except for the bit about -igx-, since it strikes me as being someone's idea of how Eo should develop in the future rather than Eo as it actually is. Likewise with the Conditional Participles. --Chris 21:11, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I've tried bringing in interesting tidbits, so this article won't just repeat what can easily be found elsewhere. I've seen conditional participles, though of course they're rare in the extreme. kwami 22:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe there should be a section for experimentalist things like ri, -u-, and -ent-. Anyway, I don't think the article should suggest that they are part of normal Esperanto, in the way that bluas for estas blue is.--Chris 23:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ambaux

Should ambaux be counted among numerals?

No. It's a pronoun, and maybe a conjunction? Like other pronouns, it can be used substantively or attributively, and the attributive usage is something like attributive numerals, but no more than tiu etc. kwami 11:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Patro Nia

I guess there should be a comma after ĉielo, because kaj here is rather a substitute for (tiel) ankaŭ then to be seen as an "and".
Furthermore it would be great, if another sample text could be included (for example a part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). This would provide more (religious) neutrality.   –   Korako / 10:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The nice thing about the Pater noster is that most English speakers have heard it enough times for it to be at least vaguely familiar, which isn't the case with the UDHR. But here's a link if you're interested in adding something: UDHR in Eo. kwami 11:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
You're right there. For that very reason I would absolutely keep the Lord's Prayer in the sample section. Thanks for the link, I'll have a look at it. Maybe someone else will find an example which is both fairly well-known and virtually neutral.   –   Korako / 11:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Something from the UDHR would be a good addition (not replacement), so long as we provide an English translation.--Chris 21:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Most Catholics, you mean? I disagree with the usage of this text on a number of levels- most highly because as an English speaker, I feel confident in saying most English speakers have no idea what "Pater noster" is (as it's known as the Lord's Prayer in English). Even knowing the text, I think most other native English speakers would still be utterly clueless as to translating it without being intimately familiar with the text. First off, since this is the English-language version, shouldn't the section mention the English title "The Lord's Prayer"? And then the article is just flatly presumptious saying it should be readable without translation- even knowing the Lord's Prayer, the only reason I can figure out most of the text is from knowing a bit of Spanish. True English speakers would be utterly clueless, especially if they're non-Catholic. Then there's the obvious issue with using a religious text as a "universally readable" model- we all should see problems there. And virtually no one knows the UDHR, so that's non-workable. At the very least, you could try a children's song. Although "Ring Around the Rosie" has many odd objections as well, at least it is quite widely known regardless of religion. 209.153.128.248 16:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Man Who Would Be King"

In the title of the Kipling story, "would be" is not a conditional, but a slightly archaic past-tense form. You could say of Prince Charles, that he is "la viro kiu* estus rego" if the Queen dies or abdicates (or "la regunto" using a conditional participle). But Kipling was writing about a freebooting English soldier who tried, but failed, to become king of Kafiristan; so the translation would be something like "La viro kiu* volis esti rego".

*or whatever, I'm pretty shaky on the Eo correlatives.--Chris 21:34, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It strikes me that the example you might want to use is "inventinto" (inventor, past tense), since it is a normal Eo word, not an artificial example.

All very true, though we could apply the title "The Man Who Would Be King" to Al Gore as a joke, and people would understand perfectly what we meant, so it can be understood as a conditional today. The participles are the one point of Eo grammar that English speakers really have a problem understanding, and I've tried to come up with something that would click in people's minds. That's why I've been fighting to keep this, even if it's not historically accurate. I'd fight for the Wile E. Coyote example too. The tree-chopping one is pretty boring, and I'd love to have something better. kwami 01:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] deleted article

i've deleted Interrogatives in Esperanto and redirected here, in case anyone wants to rescue anything from it. kwami 06:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Indo-European aspects?

I have notices the following inaccuracies in the chapter:

1. English less : least has nothing to do with ablaut sensu stricto (i.e. a Proto-Indo-European change of vowel quantity or quality). The difference between the two words is due to a Middle English shortening of the vowel before ss.

But it is vocalic apophony. Can you come up with a better example for adjectives? kwami 06:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

2. It is said that "European languages also have many words without ablaut"; in fact, the European languages inflect most words without ablaut. Ablaut is restricted to the strong verbs in Germanic. Most verbs, however, are weak. The Romance and Slavonic have little traces of ablaut in their verbal systems. Some Germanic nouns have umlaut (a Proto-Germanic change of vowel quality before an i in the following syllable), e.g. mouse : mice; this is more frequently in German than in the other Germanic languages. However, most nouns are inclinated without any vowel change at all.

No, all IE languages retain ablaut to some extent. But this could be worded better. kwami 06:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

3. The "regular analogic extension of standard European grammatical structures" are seen in many modern Indo-European languages. Most English nouns form the plural with -s; the same is the case in Spanish.

Yes, most. There are few cases in which it is all. kwami 06:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

4. A future participle is known in both Latin and Ancient Greek. In fact, Ancient Greek has a developed participle system which may have served as a model for Zamenhof's system. E.g.

  Present Aorist Perfect Future
Active λύων = solvanta λύσας = solvinta λελυκώς = solvinta λύσων = solvonta
Middle λυόμενος = solvata; solvanta sin / al si λυσάμενος = solvinta sin / al si λελυμένος = solvita; solvita sin / al si λυσόμενος = solvonta sin / al si
Passive λυθείς = solvita λυθησόμενος = solvota
Thanks for the points, esp. the last. I'll try to get them in. kwami 06:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanto Is More Logical?

"A logical structure makes Esperanto easier to learn than most of the world's languages..."

Can we have some proof to bolster this statement? I'm skeptical that Esperanto has a 'logical' structure - at least show me how 'logical' it is compared to other languages? ('Logical' according to whom? Speakers of languages which do not routinely differentiate between verbs and nouns - such as many polysynthetic languages - would hardly find Esperanto grammar to be 'logical'. And what about speakers of languages which do not differentiate adverbs from adjectives, like German and Dutch?) 70.138.218.110 20:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps 'morphological regularity' and 'syntactic flexibility' would be better. Or 'easier to learn than other Indo-European languages', since they pretty much all share the things that people might find difficult.
Most polysynthetic languages do distinguish nouns and verbs quite clearly. Of the few which do not, their speakers are all bilingual in English. And going from a polysynthetic language to one with simpler morphology is rather easy; it commonly happens with language contact. kwami 06:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the article should replace 'logical' with the qualities you mentioned. I imagine you have some background in linguistics (as do I - it's what I majored in in college), so I have to disagree with the notion that most polysynthetic languages 'clearly' distinguish between nouns and verbs - polypersonal agreement often conflates and obscures what is traditionally 'verbal' and what is traditionally 'substantival' (although we can obviously talk of roots and affixes). I'm also skeptical that it's "easier" to go from a polysynthetic language to one with a simpler morphology - the tendency for speakers of Native American languages to start speaking the often less synthetic languages of Europeans has little to do with "ease" and more to do with historical processes. [I imagine you're referring to processes of pidginization, but it probably would be easier to go from Mohawk to a nascent pidgin than, say, from Spanish to Vietnamese, Yi (with its surprisingly variable syntax), or Nass-Gitksan (with its preference for VSO), even though these languages range from highly analytic (the former two) to slightly synthetic (the latter). So the actual desired trait for enhanced communication might be rigid, predictable syntax, and not necessarily simpler morphology.] Thank you for your prompt response, though - I understand a little better what might be meant by "logical" in this context. 70.138.218.110 17:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of Tiwi, actually, which because of English influence is losing its polysynthesis. It's apparently easy enough for elders to 'dumb down' their speech in what is essentially baby talk, with non-incorporating verbs and overt arguments, but much harder for youngsters to master polysynthetic morphology. As for unclear boundaries between noun and verb, AFAIK that is an areal feature in the American Pacific Northwest, especially in Wakashan. If those people didn't speak English, then yes, the Espo noun-verb distinction would be difficult. I'm not so sure in other languages that outsiders find confusing on the N-Vb front, the speakers themselves have much difficulty with it. kwami 18:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)