Talk:Esmond Romilly

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[edit] Product of an affair with Winston Churchill

This information, referred to as a regular rumour, is contained in Mary S. Lovell's biography of the Mitford sisters. Churchill was a known philanderer and Esmond's mother was his sister-in-law, and the possesor of a 'bad' reputation among aristocratic circles.

Whilst not impossible, it's very unlikely. Churchill had one other widely-rumoured 'illegitimate son', his protegé Brendan Bracken, but his wry comments on this have been more often attributed to his sense of humour and closeness to Bracken. The claim that he 'was a known philanderer' is simply untrue. Before his marriage to Clementine he was often unlucky in love (several women he proposed to, such as Pamela Plowden, spurned him), whilst his half-decade-long marriage was very happy. For details of his marriage, see the collection of letters between him and his wife edited by Mary Soames. As for any alleged infidelities, I'm a Churchill specialist and I've never heard of them - please show me a single source.

Debonairchap 03:16, 10 January 2006

[edit] Parentage

"His mother was a daughter of Lady Blanche Hozier (1852–1925), daughter of the 10th Earl of Airlie and married at the time to Sir Henry Montague Hozier (1838–1907); however, her biological father may have been Wilfred Scawen Blunt, poet, anti-colonialist, and co-founder of the Crabbet Arabian Stud. [1] Romilly was therefore a nephew of Winston Churchill's wife, Clementine Ogilvy Hozier."

This is very confusing. Neither of his parents is actually named. Who was his father? Who was married to Sir Henry Montague Hozier, his mother or his grandmother? Whose biological father may have been Wilfred Scawen Blunt, his mother or his grandmother? And how is this relevant to Romilly's life? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 10:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Have tried to clarify. Pronouns make it difficult. I don't have Esmond's mother's name, but she was a sister of Clementine. It is important in that it shows how well-connected Esmond was, and what exactly he was running away from. To have an anti-colonialist as one's grandfather is a useful background fact about Esmond. BrainyBabe (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that is an improvement, but it still reads very oddly to discuss his family background without the names of either of his parents. I will see what I can find. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 03:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Churchill as uncle

I think the description of Romilly's family and background is much better than a few days ago, but a couple of things still need to be resolved.

1. Uncle -- my understanding is that the spouses of my parents' siblings are my uncles and aunts. "We're going to see Aunt Beth and Uncle Seth" not "Aunt Beth and her husband". The article at uncle backs me up on this, as does the Oxford English Dictionary. It is true that the OED offers the alternative "uncle-in-law" but the last citation is 1779. If there is a need to be particular, then I see no problem with "uncle by marriage" (as opposed to "blood uncle" -- e.g. in cases where genetic proximity matters, blood donors and the like). Thus, I conclude that the current sentence, "the frequent though not strictly accurate statement that Romilly was Churchill's nephew", is itself not accurate.

2.Churchill -- there is an objection to my description of him as a "powerful politician". Would "prominent" be better? At the time of Romilly's birth, Churchill was very senior in the War Office. He became Secretary of State for the Colonies in 1921, and then Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1924. Even in his "wilderness years" he maintained a large public following and kept his seat in the House of Commons; his writings earned him a substantial income, and he had the ear of men who mattered. At the time of Romilly's death, Churchill had been Prime Minister for about two years. What clearer explanatory phrase could be appended to his name? BrainyBabe (talk) 17:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Uncles: I see the OED agrees with you, which I must say surprises me. I still think it is not strictly correct to say that my aunt's husband is my uncle, but I won't argue about it further. 2. Yes, Churchill was in and out of office during Romilly's lifetime, but I think to describe him as "one of the most powerful politicians in Britain" as a general statement covering the whole period is an overstatement. Between 1929 and 1939 (nearly half of Romilly's lifetime) he was a backbencher. I also think "powerful" is a mischaracterisation of the nature of ministerial authority in a Westminster system - I don't think the Chancellor of the Exchequer wields power, rather he exercises a ministerial authority. But this is not an article about Churchill so we needn't debate that. I would be happy with "prominent." Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Glad this could be settled so quickly and amicably! BrainyBabe (talk) 07:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)