Talk:Erzurum

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Erzurum article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Unrelated template

Please dont put any irrelevant template.This is a nationalist approach and can bring some distruptive edits on Armenian cities(Which they were ruled by Ottoman Empire till to 1920's).No need like war-edits in wiki. Regards. MustTC 10:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That is why smilar many Templates deleted from Greece, Erivan etc(some deleted by me). Please dont begin nationalist edit-rv war among users.MustTC 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Adding it doesn't mean a claim to it, it just means that Armenian editors are contributing as well since it has a significant historic past to Armenia. Khoikhoi 20:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I deleted the link: * The City Overview (video) because the video is no longer available. Yahshammah 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] blockquotes

I did not remove any information, I just removed those unnecessary, lenghty, POV blockquotes. I don't see why we should keep them. DenizTC 14:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I don't like blockquotes either. What was the reason to remove the info about the deportation route? --VartanM 16:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
What info? If it is removed, then it is a mistake, sorry if that is the case. DenizTC 16:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
If the "history" section of this entry actually lived up to its name, then those quotes would be considered overly-long and probably superfluous to the entry. However there is almost nothing of the substantial history of Erzurum in this entry, and until there is more content I think the quotes should remain because they neatly sum-up events in Erzurum at the end of the 19th century. PS - by mistake, I made the change (re-inserting the quotes) before logging in. Meowy 21:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, much of the history content that is currently contained in the entry for Erzurum region would appear to be more appropriate for this entry. Thoughts? Meowy 21:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
We cannot include things for the sake of including them. The history section is not that short, what this article is lacking is other stuff (besides if it is short we should be more selective when adding things, and add them duly) . This city is a modern city, people live in this city, many things can be added. But our blockquotes don't seem to add anything useful. They are just unencyclopedic POV things imposing ideas on the reader (this might be the weasel thing you were mentioning on Ataturk). No reason for them to stay. Also some stuff in the history section should not be there (I moved them into new sections). DenizTC 20:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I will not re-insert the quotes. Following you reasoning, I have removed the sentence on Nene Hatum. As written, it was unenyclopaedic POV, and there already is a link about her in the notable natives section. Regarding the length of thehistoy section, Erzurum's history is at least 2000 years, we have a couple of lines covering a few incidents in recent centuries. Do you really think that is not too short?? Meowy 19:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It is short, not too short, the article in general is short, that does not mean we should go ahead and add those blockquotes. Nene Hatun thing can be rephrased and readded, as it was actually giving additional info about a war, but it should be rephrased like I said. Women taking on arms against a strong foe, and defeating that foe, might be quite notable. Also, I checked Mama Hatun, and I think now that it might be useful to add that Erzurum was capital of Saltuklu's, also we might add other historical states, whose capital lies in today's Erzurum, the city. DenizTC 23:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The Nene Hatun thing wasn't giving additional information about that war, because there was no information at all about that war in the history section! That is why I removed it. The entry needs much more basic information about the history of Erzurum on the page before inserting tiny details that are already fully covered in another entry. Regarding your feeling that the history information pertaining to Erzurum city should remain on the Erzurum region page. Erzurum region once included all of present-day Kars, Ardahan, and Artvin regions. Presumably you are not arguing that all the pre-19th century history of those places should be moved to Erzurum region! Meowy 19:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not aware of "according to" being weasel, it might in fact be the opposite. Anyway, Balakian should stay there, being a controversial figure. DenizTC 01:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
They are clearly weasel words. Is every citation in Wikipedia also accompanied by the phrase "according to"? The source of the information is already properly cited, indicating that the source of the info is Balakian (who sourced it directly from newspaper reports of that period). Meowy 03:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Controversial ones, yes, or should be. Otherwise no problem with it. I don't see anything weasel there. DenizTC 10:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, I only see a map there, no newspaper refs. There is a reference to "investigative journalist" Fisk though. Let's not fisk him, but I am not sure he has an access to a map, need to see his book. If the real reference is him, then we should indicate so, no need for intermediaries. Also I don't understand why we find this book reliable, it is a literary piece by a poet, 'literary liberties' might be taken, and we don't have place for them, especially for these subjects. It is like making a witness out of an actor. DenizTC 11:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Deniz, you wanted the newspaper quotes removed, so they were! There is nothing controversial in the reference, It may be "controversial" in Turkey (where you may get imprisoned, or worse, if you say anything against official "history") but it is not controversial in the real world.Meowy 05:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Blah blah blah. No one is imprisoned for "saying anything against the official 'history'" in Turkey (there is no such law). maybe in your country it is, I don't know. The poet is controversial, in my opinion. It wouldn't necessarily be controversial, if he was talking about literary life in Erzurum. I don't see anything wrong with the addition of "according to Balakian", we even have "according to X" with historians. DenizTC 05:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Your addition is clearly weasel. As I explained earlier, the source of the information is already properly cited to Wikipedia standards, with that citation indicating that the source is a book by Balakian. If it will help you, maybe I will add more information to that section: the book "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" has a chapter on the 1915-1918 period. Meowy 01:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] misinformation

"Erzeroum (Armenian: Կարին (Karin), see also its former and other names) is a city in Western Armenia."

I think this is a very cool example of misinformation & pov. keep doing it ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciup (talk • contribs) 00:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, upload a pic of your favorite dream map. Do western armenia includes new york too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciup (talk • contribs) 01:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century. If "Western Armenia" is considered to equate to "Turkish Armenia" then the epithet is correct, but it would be better to use "Turkish Armenia".

BTW, "Erzurum International Airport"?? What international flights depart from Erzurum? I know of none. Meowy 19:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Erzurum was known as the capital of Turkish Armenia during the 19th century."
..but we are in the 21.century. right?
I think "it's better" to use "Eastern Anatolia Region", which is current.Ciup 20:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
It's official name is Erzurum Hava Limanı : Erzurum Airport Ciup 21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


Isn't there a misinformation when saying Erzurum was the scene of massacres during 1890s? Where are the references? Who claimed the references to be the truth? If I go and state on Armenia that it was the scene of Azerbaijani massacres would you the Armenians keep that info in there as well, or delete it in a hurry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zumbalak (talk • contribs) 17:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The information is fully sourced, if you care to actually read the entry. Earlier versions of this entry actually included quotes from the newspaper articles but they were removed by another editor, a mistake given that genocide-denialists will try to creep through the smallest gap. Meowy 18:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I reverted unexplained partial blanking by an IP as the info is sourced and significant. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've just done the same thing. Meowy 22:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This article needs some clean up. It seems a little strange that almost half of the article about this important city in Eastern Turkey is dedicated to its Armenian history and their fate. These are topics discussed and distorted and inflated at length in many dedicated articles. Can we make this article more about Erzurum? The reference to Erzurum being an "extermination" center is unsubstantiated and not sure what that even means. There were gas chambers and ovens there? This needs more backup. One can not elaborate what happened in Erzurum during WWI without also elaborating what happened there to its Muslim citizens and what Armenians and Russians did to them. It may be best to indicate that the city changed hands a few times and was the site intense warfare and civil war. All this is open to constructive discussion.--Murat (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Murat, please consider my "sleeping dogs" comment I made to you in another article. You really do not want stir things up here because you will not like the properly referenced and sourced article that will result from it. Unlike Bitlis or Sasun, I know enough, and have the material, to confidently write about Erzurum. Meowy 23:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid the dogs are already awake and at work. Is it really possible to demonize Turks more? Though I do have a healthy respect for your capacity for self-deception and ethnic propaganda.--Murat (talk) 20:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Your removal of information you've labeled as "propaganda", is referenced and is also referenced here [1]. Kansas Bear (talk) 01:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)