Talk:Ernst Krenek

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article falls within the scope of the WikiProject contemporary music, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of contemporary music subjects. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Ernst Krenek is related to the Composers WikiProject which has been provided as a place for editors of biographical articles of music Composers and Songwriters to discuss common issues, discover neglected composer articles and exchange ideas. All who are interested are invited to comment and contribute.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.

Contents

[edit] Cigarettes

Are the cigarettes relevant, and is it known that they were named after the opera? - Ar 18:28, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)

I think the cigarettes are relevant- it's an interesting tidbit of information that demonstrates his popularity. Could we get a picture? (Of him, not the cigarettes) Splat 02:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I added a picture. Splat 06:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordering of operas

I've undone a reversion by kleinzach, who informs me there is an established practice of ordering works by date of premiere instead of composition and opus number. If this is so, he may reorder them without removing the composition dates. Sparafucil (talk) 07:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Could you clarify whether this practice is established (1) for this article in particular, (2) for Krenek's work in general (i.e., on the Krenek website, etc.), or (3) for opera in general? New Grove, for example, lists Krenek's operas by date of composition, and adds dates of premières where available. Thus, Kehraus um St Stephan, op.66 (composed 1930) is listed before Karl V (composed 1932–33), though the latter was first staged in 1938, long before the former, which only received its first performance in 1990.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In answer to (1): You would need to go through the long history of this article, however most of the list was probably taken from the German WP article, which is by premiere (though numbered works are obviously by number). On the German page Kehraus um St Stephan comes before Karl V as a published, and therefore finished (rather than composed) work.
In answer to (3): Establishing the date of composition is (in general) more difficult than the date of a first performance. For that reason the Opera Project uses premiere dates for navigation boxes, categories and lists. (Of course this is not done rigidly in the case of (juvenile etc.) works unperformed in the composer's time.) Grove - and indeed opera articles in WP - will obviously try to give both as far as the records allow. (In their lists, Grove take a case by case approach, for example Wagner is listed by WWV (Wagner Werk-Verzeichnis catalogue number while the operas of an 18th century composer like Salieri are simply listed by premiere. -- Kleinzach (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I am an agnostic with respect to (3); we were only recently discussing the merits of chronological versus alphabetic ordering (and why not the latter for a special case like Donizetti?). Opera, more than other forms, tends to be written to order for a specific performance, but if dates of completion are known it is less informative to order by belated premieres, as indeed you argue for juvenilia. I dont see how not to deal with this except on a case by case basis: for some early works we know neither the composition nor the premiere dates and have only publication to go by, and things get messy when there are ongoing revisions. In Krenek's case the scores are inscribed with a date of completion as well as an opus number. I note however that Stewart lists by publication, giving 1951 for Dark Waters, which premiered the year before. Sparafucil (talk) 02:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Can we try and refocus on the problem here?

Entries like: Karl V, op. 73 (1933, Prague 1938; revised 1954) are unintelligible. What does 1933 signify? No-one will know. On the other hand a standard listing e.g. Die Juxheirat, 21 December 1904, Theater an der Wien, Vienna is clear and unambiguous. (Having composition dates is of course useful if the information is added in a clearly understood way). -- Kleinzach (talk) 02:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Kleinzach, if the waters are muddied it is because your edit summary said: "we have a well established practice of ordering by date of premiere." Are you refering to this?
No, I was not. -- Kleinzach (talk) 05:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Karl V, op. 73 (commissioned 1929, completed 1933, premiered Prague 1938; revised 1954) seem a bit fussy to me, and for the shortened version to be unambiguous the theatre would have to be specified (remember that Krenek usually inscribes the city as well as date of completion on the last page). Your reverted version of the Template:Krenek operas is far from unambiguous and imo downright misleading. Sparafucil (talk) 02:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
We are here to serve the readers. You may consider something fussy but that is not the point - we have responsibility to make things easier for them. If you have comments about the Template:Krenek operas please put them the relevant page or raise the matter on the Opera Project. -- Kleinzach (talk) 05:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "one day after the Nazis gained control of the Reichstag"

Hello, the following bit is problematic. Since it has been restored after my removal, I am raising it here:

On March 6, one day after the Nazis gained control of the Reichstag, Krenek's incidental music to 
Goethe's Triumph der Empsindsamkeit had to be withdrawn

What is "gained control of the Reichstag" supposed to mean?

Jerome says they became the "controlling force of government" but that isn't actually true.

What actually happened on March 5 is that there were elections to the Reichstag. The NSDAP won 44% of the seats - hence they did not win a majority. Hitler had been already appointed Chancellor on January 30 and the Fire Decree had suspended civic rights on February 28. Also, the Reichstag elected on March 5 first met on March 21 so actually the 44% went effective only then.

The other question is how this is relevant to Ernst Krenek? Did the Nazi government or someone else wait until after the elections before withdrawing the musich? Who actually was responsible for that? What is the actual link to the election?

If you cannot answer these, you shouldn't say it is "very relevant"! Right now it is just hot air. Str1977 (talk) 07:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You're not suggesting the timing was a coincidence? I've replaced "gained control" with "gains in the election", although I suspect that the NSDASP had coalition partners to form a majority. Replacing "from 1945" with "later" seems unnecessarily vague. Sparafucil (talk) 23:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I underestimated Str1977. I took his characterizaton of "not relevant" to suggest he either did not know what the Reichstag was, or that he did not see a link between the rise of Naziism and the cancellation of Krenek's performances. I see now that his grasp of events in 1933 is far more detailed than my own. Sparafucil's edit goes some way toward correcting the situation, but there is still a big gap in events, as Str1977 says. The cancellation of Krenek's Karl V took place not in Germany but in Austria, which did not come under Nazi control until the Anschluss in 1938. There were to be sure various Nazi-allied factions active in Austria long before this time, and one of these, according to the liner notes by Matthias Schmidt in the D&G recording of Karl V, the österreichisches Heimwehr was the body actually responsible. It is plausible that their decision to move when they did was emboldened by the Nazi political gain in Germany the previous day, but Schmidt does not mention this, coincidence or no. So the problem of a verifiable source remains, but it should not be an insuperable problem in the long run, since there are a number of good sources out there that I have not yet consulted.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)