Talk:Ernest Hemingway

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Former featured article Ernest Hemingway is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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[edit] Errors in Hemingway article

There are numerous errors in the history. To cite some: Hemingway was never a star athlete in high school--he played 2nd or 3rd string guard in football and was swim team manager; there's no objective proof he ever rescued anyone after being wounded; he never staunched a wound with cigarette butts--that was a tall tale he told naive high school students on his return; he went to Canada probably less to get away from Prohibition than to get away from his mother, who threw him out of the house; he didn't work on a newspaper in Chicago but for the "Cooperative Commonwealth," a monthly journal; he didn't leave the Toronto "Star" out of boredom but because he couldn't stand his editor, who thought Hemingway too cocky and needing to be taken down a peg; he wrote the first draft of "The Sun Also Rises" in six weeks, but the rewriting, after writing "Torrents of Spring," took several months; etc. Plhays 00:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT SBHarris 00:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World Record

I have heard that Hemmingway once held the world record for having caught the world's heaviest Marlin. Someone could verify this and add it to the article.

[edit] where are his pictures?

Can anybody tell why somebody reomved Hemingway's two pictures in this article? in one he was sitting on stairs and in the another he was writing on a table, they were good pictures, please put them back if you have them.


[edit] The Spanish Civil War

The Spanish Civil War was horrendous on both sides. Thus, to present the Republican side as merely elected without reference to their own atrocities, distorts the circumstances in which Hemingway found himself and which he tolerated, as did Herbert Matthews,in his news reports. In Hemingway's favor one notes the narrations by the character "Pablo" of the killings of unarmed clergy found in "For Whom the Bell Tolls." Still it is pertinent to distinguish the role of Hemingway as a novelist for whom there is freedom to take a side or a position, from that of Hemingway as a journalist bearing a far greater ethical responsibility to adhere to objectivity. All this helps define Hemingway whose writings even for his times showed far less compassion for his non-US subjects,than his own nationals. One is reminded of his cursory treatment of the murder of smuggled Asians in one of the accounts found in "Islands in the Stream." Perhaps one might even ascribe (as surely somebody has) Hemingway's laconic writing style to a way to try to separate himself from the human subjects he describes, and eventually to himself. This laconic style could be compared to that of the trained thoughts of a Spartan youth going on a mission to murder Helots. As yet I have found no account of a meeting or interaction of Hemingway with Eric Blair George Orwell which might help illuminate this subject. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't you find it tiresome holding historic figures up to current standards? Just how well will you fair when your life is reviewed a hundred years from now? Rklawton 19:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
WW2 was horrendous on both sides, does that mean that there was a moral equivalency between the Axis and the Allies, that we should make excuses for Hitler and in this case Hitler's minion Franco on that basis or that people should have stood idly by and let them triumph? No. It is to the credit of Hemingway and all the other veterans of the "greatest generation" that they stepped up to the plate and did what had to be done in that situation. The world would be far worse off had they abandoned their duty. And of course, the other aspect of it is that Hemingway was a seasoned combat veteran, going back to the Great War, who had developed a hardened and desensitized attitude towards the cruelties of war, that some of his interlocutors may have never come close to seeing in real life even once, much less on a routine basis as soldiers often do.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No I do not. Hemingway is still a man of my time. I remember the executions in la Caba~na in Cuba, and their horror. George Plimpton writes that Hemingway was impervious to their horror, but not so his dining companions. See:

  • Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 pp. 143-149.

These scenes also horrified a large majority of the U.S. public. Thus one can say without exaggeration, that Hemingway's values in this regard were out of step with most in the US at that time. As to Civil War Spain George Orwell, John Dos Passos, and a good number of Hemingway's contemporaries were horrified by the cruelty of what occurred there. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Good points - and those contemporary reactions to Hemingway's work should be included. I hope you're sharpening your pencil! Rklawton 20:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but is that not true of most great conflagrations (and of war generally)? World War II? the American Civil War? there were atrocities on both sides, but ultimately it could and was reasonably concluded that cause of one side (The Union, the Allies) merited support and victory, represented progress and that it was critical for human history that that outcome be effectuated. The genteel equivocation of the gentlemen you mention, in contrast to Hemingway's candidly partisan attitude, in the context of what has aptly been described as the "dress rehearsal of World War II" could reflect a political attitude of conciliating fascism that many of these people had based on their privileged class position (see the "Understanding Rich") and quite frankly it was the abstention of the Allies and much of the liberal intelligentsia on this basis that created the situation where Soviet backed communists were able to gain the undue influence they had to the detriment of the Spanish Republic, which was qualitively different than the Axis sponsored military dictatorship that replaced it.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Rklawton: thank you will do at the first opportunity. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Tom: I do not recall reading of killings of clergy in the U.S. Civil War, and in WWI and WWII except by the Soviets and the Nazi. Hmmmm140.211.14.1 20:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] offensive?

Under the section about early criticism, they describe his second wife as "[allegedly having] lesbian affairs after their divorce". While I understand that 'affair' could have different meanings, the connotation is that she comitted adultry. If they were divorced this would not be the case unless she was remarried and that should be noted. Regardless- there is a difference between talking about the discriminate views of the past and talking in a discriminate tone ABOUT the past. I think the language should be clarified in order to be more objective towards this person... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.113.90.150 (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Trivia"

While there are pertinent items listed, I find the popular culture and Anecdote sections to be primarily lists of trivia. I can see the popular culture shortened and converted to prose. The anecdote section should be pruned then the remains spread through the article at the appropriate spots. Someone more familiar with the topic would do a better job than I, but I am willing to dive in should no one step up. . . (John User:Jwy talk) 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Please Be bold and edit away. Most of what is listed here is not really relevant to the article. I'm no expert on the subject either, but I would be more than happy to help. I'm adding a trivia tag and will be back later to remove some of the more obviously misplaced bits of trivia. Sbacle 16:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have started to clean up this trivia section by removing a few of the bullet points that are clearly not significant to Hemingway. The information may be better placed in other articles, but does not belong here. I have detailed my reasons below. Please discuss if you have any objections.

  • Seven/Rush album: Hemingway is quoted much to often for us to detail every single occurrence on this page.
  • World of Warcraft/Family Guy episode/Fight Club/The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou/10 Things I Hate About You/Dreamcatcher/"We Didn't Start the Fire"/"Here's to Life"/"Just the Girl"/"Stranger Than Fiction": a passing reference, not of significant importance to the (MMORPG/episode/films/songs) or Hemingway.
  • Celebrity Deathmatch: The show frequently depicts famous figures. The Hemingway depiction is not significant in any way, nor is it particularly accurate.
  • Histeria!: Removed for reasons similar to Celebrity Deathmatch. He was only one of many famous authors depicted in this episode.
  • Pete Wentz's dog: Perhaps this is significant enough to Pete Wentz to be included in the article about him, though I highly doubt it. It certainly doesn't belong here.

This is just a preliminary cleaning to get the ball rolling. Not all of the remaining material belongs in the article, but some of it does and should be integrated into the appropriate sections. Anything that doesn't belong should either be incorporated into an article to which it is relevant, or removed as not notable. Sbacle 15:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I like your reasoning for each of these. Keep up the good work! Rklawton 15:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] JImmy Buffett

Songwriter/singer Jimmy Buffett references Hemmingway in many songs. In one song, he says 'Follow the Equator, like the old articulator.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.188.202.63 (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected intro

The introduction section refered to the Hemingway home in Ketchum as his "hunting lodge." It was in fact his home. His wife Mary continued to live there until her death in 1986. I corrected the mistake. Jonathan S Knowles 01:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Dates

Hi, I just realized that the article mentions Hemingway moving to Key West, Florida twice, but in two different years. The first occurance is in the "First Novels And Other Early Works section and it states that "In 1928, Hemingway and Pfeiffer moved to Key West, Florida". However, in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" it states that "Hemingway moved in 1931 to Key West, Florida". Please fix this. Tamara Van Diest 19:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rizla edits (terminology pertaining to Iceberg Theory)

User:Rizla insists on the following wording: Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement. I object to that for the following reasons: (a) Iceberg theory is by my understanding the legacy of Hemingway (so it is totally crazy in my eyes to have a whole article which doesn't mention the term once); (b) furthermore, I would argue that distinctive to, is a bias that should be entirely removed. My suggestion which doesn't remedy the bias is the following, Hemingway's distinctive writing style, detailed in his Iceberg Theory, is characterized by economy and understatement. This has the benefit of at least naming the theory on the page of the creator. For this article to even considered mediocre it must state the Iceberg Theory since his stories seem to often be analyzed to examine his implementation of this. Caveat: I'm not a English major, I just know my professor spoke of it a lot, and I was disturbed to see both the theory and the Hemingway without obvious wiki-links. I also must say to use wikilinks to conceal information seems to be an abuse of the functionality. The justification was style preference. To avoid accusations of an edit war I will revert after 5 days if there is no follow up. EvanCarroll 09:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you here. And to be honest, after reading Iceberg Theory, it's so small that you could merge the whole thing into this article. CarbonX 09:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, Hemingway never called his writing style "iceberg theory," that is something that has been used as a catch all for the passage he wrote in Death in the Afternoon, which is in the wiki article. Hemingway himself never said "I write using Iceberg Theory." It could just as easily be called a Theory of Omission, or the Iceberg Method (and it has been referenced as this by other scholars). Second, people will see where the wiki link goes to if they mouse over it or click on the link. Third, this takes place in the introduction, which should be as concise and compact as possible. One of the challenges the editors have had with this article is the endless clauses and stuttering sentences that made it convoluted. This in my view is a failing of wiki as a whole, as editors would rather just interrupt a sentence with a clause or tack something on the end than rewrite the entire sentence so it is easier to read.
My problem with this is that "Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement" is entirely sufficient to describe his style in the introduction. If people want to know more they can click the wiki link. It is concise and to the point. If you want to change it, go ahead. I've spent a ton of time on this article trying to get it to at least read like it isn't written by a highschooler already. Adding another cumbersome subclause to a sentence about a writing style of economy and understatement is hilariously terrible. Rizla 18:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Trivial Request for Enlightenment

The last paragraph in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" includes "kidney trouble from fishing" among a list of Hemingway's ailments during this period. Enquiring minds would like a little elaboration on the possible risks sportsfishing poses to the human kidney. Surely I'm not the only reader who has paused in puzzlement at that phrase.

Douglas Barber (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diabetes

Diabetes was in the Hemingway family was known as the "Hemingway curse". As well as his father, Ernest and his brother both developed Diabetes. Refer to:

  1. USA Today, 22 Sept 2007.
  2. Diabetes Digest "Famous People & Diabetes"
  3. Wagner-Martin, Linda (2000), A Historical Guide to Ernest Hemingway, ISBN 0195121511  where page 43 describes his condition in August 1947 as including high blood pressure, diabetes, depression and possible haemochromatosis.

I have already added Category:People with diabetes to the page. -- Ashley VH (talk) 23:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "... he married a whore."

If you look under the heading First Novels and Early Works, there is a sentence in the third paragraph that reads: "After Hemingway's return to italy, he married a whore." Why is this here? This is vandalism, right?

[edit] Bathurst Street Hunt Club

Can someone write Bathurst Street Hunt Club into this article so that Bathurst Street Hunt Club can stop being a stub? Kingturtle (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean stop being an orphan? --JayHenry (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)