Talk:Ernest Hemingway/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The links from this page used to be Ernest Hemingway/subpages - they've now been moved to their own pages, but this isn't appropriate, because they are sections of a long essay rather than, for example, book or story titles. When I saw this had been done at first, I said I was going to move all the content from those pages onto this page, but I didn't realise how *long* they all were. I'm not sure sticking them all here is going to be very useful. As the entire text is available on the web (the link is given in the article, it's licensed under the GNU FDL), and does not in any case seem particularly encyclopaedic, how about just giving an external link to it, and deleting the text itself from the wikipedia? That will get rid of all these inappropriately named pages and avoid the false impression that we have a decent article about Hemingway. --Camembert

Interesting idea. Yes, these pages give a false impression. I think I'll go download the pages so I have a backup. (I've been meaning to work on them for quite awhile now). --KQ

I agree with Camembert. Jeronimo 14:16 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

If Anonymous has found some GFDL material online, and we are maintaining a duplicate, I'd like to have a link to the original. Over the course of time, our version will fork away from theirs. --Ed Poor

pointed out that the malaspina link is the same GFDL document, actually copied from Wikipedia (look carefully)

Sorry, looking carefully is not my strong suit. Which is the original source: the Wikipedia, with an echo at malaspina and elsewhere? Or is Malaspina the original, allowing us to copy from them under GFDL? --Ed Poor

I've gone to the Malaspina page, and at the bottom there is an almost illegible reference to the material being adapted from Wikipedia, but without any mention of GNU-FDL. Elsewhere, under Terms of Service, I found

16. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS TO CONTENT
Members acknowledge that content, including but not limited to text, photographs, video, graphics, software, music, sound, or other material contained in either sponsor advertisements or emails presented to Member by BigMailBox.com or its advertisers (collectively referred to as "Content"), is protected under the laws of copyright, trademark, patent, unfair competition or other applicable laws. Therefore, you are only permitted to use this Content as expressly authorized by BigMailBox.com, Malaspina.com or the advertisers associated with the Malaspina.com service. Members may not copy, reproduce, distribute, or create derivative works from this Content without the express written authorization to do so by BigMailBox.com, Malaspina.com or the advertiser.

The other link is to a general german language freenet.de page which makes no direct mention of Hemingway. It's not helpful at all, and probably should be deleted.

The earliest entry in the history of this article is for May 12, 2001, and the article at that point includes a warning from Larry to the contributor about the GNU-FDL consequences.

Malaspina.com seems to have some link with Malaspina University College of Nanaimo, BC. The Hemingway material is not the only thing they have adapted from Wikipedia. While I was looking for how they reference other material I found that they also adapted the Michel Foucault, Mavis Gallant and the F. Scott Fitzgerald articles, but with functional links.

I don't know where this is leading, but assuming that the Hemingway article is properly on Wikipedia, I do have some concerns about how these articles are adapted, and how our freely available material might be used by commercial interests who leave the illusion that they own the copyrights. I say this here because this is where I found the issue. I should probably move these comments to the mailing list. Eclecticology 19:26 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

I think this page should be drastically redone; that much is obvious! This is what I propose:

  1. Go through the subpages and move all useful material here, without deleting from subpages;
  2. Go through subpages and remove all material irrelevant to the subject (which on Spain in Flames is everything after the first paragraph).

After this is done, I think we'll have a number of good articles and none of the above issues, as they relate to this article. --Sam

By the way, I realise that this will get very long, but once it's all here, we can chop it down and put in logical sections which will help break it up .--Sam


It's one thing to love Hemingway (or anyone else) and write a perhaps too lengthy article about them. But, it is unacceptable to allow crap like this to remain with unfullfilled promises such as Sam saying: once it's all here, we can chop it down and put in logical sections which will help break it up. What is worse, this massive amount of stuff is poorly done, often repeating itself, and lacking fact and proper research. This is the kind of garbage that DESTROYS Wikipedia's validity! .....DW

This text was an early contribution from IIRC Malcolm Farmer, and was added around April 2001. It was originally a paper submitted for the author's class (maybe it wasn't Malcolm Farmer). It *used* to be archived on the original author's homepage, but now I can't find the original author's page. KQ

Maybe it was User:SoniC who contributed it instead? this page lists Andreas Flack as the author, but it's under the subfolder sonics_homepage, and the revision history of Hemingway shows the earliest edit to be a minor edit by SoniC. KQ

Hi!

Might be a bit late, but I just discovered this discussion and wanted to confirm that this artilce was originally by me. It was written as a thesis for school and used to be available at my now-defunct freenet page. I still hjave it somewhere on my disk. -- de:Benutzer:SoniC

To all Hemingway experts out there: Did Hemingway ever write a novel, play, poem, letter, note, shopping list or e-mail entitled Young and Innocent? No? So where does that bloody title come from? From the old Hemingway subpages? --KF 15:30 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the title came because it was a header in our biography of Hemingway -- still is, in fact. For some reason, the biography was once spread out into subpages, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore, at least not with such unhelpful titles. Having Young and Innocent redirect to Ernest Hemingway once made sense for backwards compatibility, but that page can now be dedicated to the Hitchcock film. -- Toby 07:53 May 2, 2003 (UTC)

This is a featured article? I can't believe it. It reeks like a third-rate potboiler biography written for sensationalism. This must rank either as one of the great jokes of Wikipedia. Not only not a good article but a terrible one.

Bon mot Extracts:

His illusions were shattered, but the experiences gathered were invaluable, and, what's more, everything turned out to be all right in the end, the good ones won, his wounds healed completely and Agnes was a mere "Schwärmerei" (Burgess (9.); page 24).

How this article got past the NPOV jury of at the Featured is anybody's guess. - Mandel 13:38, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

Early critical interplay

"crude and pretentious behavior"?!?!? - biased pov. This section needs to be made more objective and also to list credible sources. E.g. "Eastman's criticism consisted of the suggestion that Hemingway give up his lonely, tight-lipped stoicism and write about contemporary social affairs. Hemingway did so for at least a short time; his article Who Murdered the Vets? for New Masses, a leftist magazine, and To Have and Have Not displayed a certain heightened social awareness." Who says so? Give me a source. Is this original research? Alcmaeonid 22:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not remove the entire section? It's not really relevant to the biography and consists mainly of anecdotal slander. DriveThru210 (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm giving notice of my intent to remove this section. I tagged it last Sept. to provide opportunity to raise it an to objective standard. This has not been done. I see no merit here and frankly can find no way to re-work it into a constructive addition. If anyone feels this section has merit and should remain please offer up your thoughts here. -Alcmaeonid (talk) 16:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

comment

The influence section claims that the sea is the central image in the work of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I have read all of Marquez's novels, several of them in Spanish, and find very little evidence for this very big claim. If you substitute shit for sea, you might have something. This is not to say that Hemingway had no influence on Marquez; he did. Just not in the way that it is stated in the article.--Johnedwineckert 22:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

older entries

HEMINGWAY WAS BORN IN 1898, not 1899!!! 192.235.8.2 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Born in 1899, some confusion because he added a year to age to gain employment with the Toronto Star at 17. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.56.108 (talk) 12:56, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Did anyone notice the ernest hemingway writing on wikipedia this morning? everyting was in gangster talk! It was hilarious!

addition/comment

I agree that the above paragraph "all right in the end" is somewhat POV and definitely could be written better. Too far out of my field for me to have a bash, how about the detractors improve it a little? Mat-C 16:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

comment

I agree that this article should be completely rewritten. It’s full of awkward phrasing, empty phrases and downright cheesiness. The writer often lapses into a colloquial, dumbed-down magazine style of writing which is inappropriate for an online encyclopedia. For example, “Hemingway Up Close And Personal” as a chapter or subtitle is an awful cliché that just doesn’t belong.

Another example of this magazine style: “Sadly, Hemingway couldn't use this attitude in life. Maybe the pressure simply was too high. The general public never knew the real Ernest Hemingway, a man with a man's problems.” This sounds more like a high school English teacher trying to convince his teenaged students that Hemingway was a total dude than it does an excerpt from a featured article in an encyclopedia.

“A Farewell to Arms” is described as “a kind of ambulance driver's wet dream.” Later in the paragraph: “And yet... even wet dreams come on different artistic levels.” This is just plain crass.

“It [the ambivalence of death and violence] had done some good, and taught him priceless philosophies.” The article is littered with empty phrases like this. They need to be weeded out.


After reading The Old Man And The Sea, I came to wikipedia for some info about the author, and what I found horified me, this is a terrible page, amaturely written, with little information, and overly cliched. Needs serious editing.

the code?

Shouldn't there be something resembling a bit of criticism perhaps? I mean, shouldn't there at least be a mention of his code of manliness? When I teach Papa, I make a point of his being a sort of existentialist -- not much evidence of that in this article.--Peccavimus 06:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree with this person...I believe that this article is very helpful for the student environment. This article helps the student body for working purposes...If we show the article with manliness and other idea made by this person...then there woulnt be any point in looking at this article now would it?? I belive that we should keep this aticle for further students who want to get a grade A on their projects.

I agree with Paccavimus. Hemingway's code hero is a powerful theme throughout his works, and to leave it out of the article would be like omitting the Civil War from a biography of Abraham Lincoln. Also, to understand Hemingway's works and life, you must address his existential philosophy. To actually earn "a grade A on their projects" students should learn these vastly important aspects of Hemingway's style and life. ok you d —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.218.7 (talk) 05:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

question

Can someone pls recommend a (yes, also partly critical) book-length biography of Hemingway, please. BTW, why does the article currently cite Döblin and Kundera in its bibliography section?

shotgun?

Can anyone provide a source for Hemingway's use of a Civil War pistol for his suicide? I'm sure I've read somewhere it was his favourite shotgun. Padraic 00:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

I have a page from my teacher with a picture taken by Robert Capa of him and Gary Cooper along with a short article on him. The article states "Too macho to abide his burly body's aging, Hemingway ended his own life with a shotgun." Followed by the signature of Robert Capa is just Magnum. Magnum may be a magazine or book publisher of some sort. --Exander 10:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"Hemingway was twice discovered alone with a shotgun, and on the way to the hospital, where he was readmitted in April 1961 because of his suicidal behavior, he tried to walk into the whirling propeller of a plane on the airport runway. To his wife’s dismay, he was nevertheless released again at the end of June. On July 2, 1961, he shot himself with a double-barreled shotgun in the foyer of his home in Ketchum, Idaho" from Lisa Tyler, Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway Greenwood Press, Westport, CT. 2001. See page 14. Stumps 10:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW ... the article states that it was Hemingway's father who used the pistol. Stumps 10:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The sentence fragment "he committed suicide by way of shotgun to the face." seems quite clunky to me. -- Terry J. Gardner (talk) 03:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The shotgun he used to kill himself was a 12 bore Boss & Co Side by Side Shotgun

Hemingway's Catholicism

"Hemingway divorced Hadley Richardson and married Pauline Pfeiffer in 1927. Because of his Roman Catholic faith, some conflicts of conscience arose, but these were eventually overcome." -- This quotation is somewhat misleading. Hemingway was raised Congregationalist; his family were descended from New England Puritan stock. Hemingway did not convert to Roman Catholicism until he married Pauline Pfeiffer, who was RC. Hemingway's subsequent divorces would indicate that his devotion to the faith was irregular at best.

- A small clarificaion on your comment: Hemingway was raised Episcopalian, not Congregationalist. His father's family was Congregationalist, but her grew up in his maternal grandfather's, where the active religion was Episcopalian since Hemingway's grandfather, Ernest Hall, had immigrated to the US from England. (His paternal grandparents were also English immigrants but were not members of the Church of England.) Due to the infludence of Ernest Hall and Grace Hall Hemingway, Ernest was raised in a fairly religious Episcopalian family that sung hymns every morning, attended church regularly, etc. Young Hemingway sang in the church choir, as did all of his siblings, as it was led by his mother!

Fabricationary

Category: Ernest Hemingway?

Should Ernest Hemingway recieve his own category? --Blue387 09:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now that he did, should we move all other categories to that category? Common Man 09:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

49 stories

I added a section about the Forty-Nine Stories which, strangely, was not present. Yet english is not my native language and maybe you want to include minor grammatical corrections or links. Please note that I took an entirely different standpoint than those that the contributors who wrote the other parts of the article did, and that was a bit too focused, at times, on irrelevancies. My assumption is that when you write about a writer, you ought to love him/her, not to be _too_ diffident of him/her, or focused only on the critics, leaving the good things as residual trailers. That's not a good formula to let a writer be known by those who may not know him/her yet. --UnitedScripters

49 Stories

I'm sorry, I felt I should delete much of the section on the short stories. The language was simply too confused (and confusing).

49 stories

To me it is fine, only you have deleted so much that it is no longer recognizable: what you have done is not to make my commentary less "confused and confusing": what you have done is bringing down the level of the section dedicated to the 49 stories to the level of this whole page about Hemingway, which not even one single commentator here missed to qualify as unidsputably low and unworthy of wilkipedia.

We do not know whom you are but if you are the person who took care of this page, you have made by GENERAL CONSENSUS such inferior a job here, that you are the least qualified to edit contributions, especially because you seem to find gossip more relvant than serious observations. Your idea of "confusing and confused" means this: confusing, namely whatever doesn't vilify Hemingway with absurd prattle, and confused namely whoever doesn't fit your limited intellectual scope which, clearly enough, gets lost as soon as a speech goes beyond the scope of the grunt.

I didn't dare delete your own essays about Hemingway, I just ADDED my own section. I see you dared much more, though dwelling in much lower intellectual places...

Rest assured anway, while you are about to delete this comment by me too as it becomes you, that it is not one section of yours that needs to be ameneded here, but it is this WHOLE page about Hemingway that should be trashed and recycled as confusing and confused.

The moon suggests, before commenting on Hemingway be sure you have read him and understood him, for the only thing that emerges from your "essay" about Hemingway is, I insit by GENERAL consensus as these commentaries prove, that you know about Hemingway as much as I know about nuclear physics: NOTHING. UnitedScripters

Major edit: June 11, 2005

I have been bold and made a major edit today, one that I've been working on for some time. It was largely organizational and for cleaning purposes, something this article needed badly.

I'm not entirely finished with everything I want to do with the edit, but I think its status now in format and rendering is thoroughly improved. --DanielNuyu 06:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well done! Mandel 17:49, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

The Dangerous Summer

I'm no expert on Hemingway but a cursive look at internet sources showed that The Dangerous Summer was written for the Life Magazine in 1960 but it was published in book form in 1985.

iceberg method

Hi, I didn't find anything about Hemingway's famous "iceberg method" of writing. You can read about it for example here [1] , we learned it at school and I find it very be¨neficial for understanding what makes his work so special.

"Many believe it was Hemingway's unique writing style that made him famous. Hemingway himself described it as the "iceberg method" (Wilson). About 1/8 of an iceberg is actually visible above water while 7/8 is below water. On the surface, his writing seems simple, but 7/8 of the story is under the simple surface."


from page http://www.ncteamericancollection.org/litmap/hemingway_ernest_id.htm

If you think this is worth of contribution, let me know at my discussion page. Or contribute it yourself, it might be better if native speaker (who has actually read his books) contributes it:) Thanks! --Paxik 13:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Headline funkiness

Something odd was going on, and the Table of Contents was followed by the Headline "Headline" twice in a row. I deleted one and renamed the other to "Background," but feel free to change it.

Hmmm Forgot to logon. This is me.

Odd Grammar and Syntax

It would seem from the odd syntax, word usage and grammar that some Native Spanish speaker is inserting/deleting sections on Hemingway's relationships with the extreme left...

spanish civil war

Does any one know anything about Ernest Hemingway’s involvement in the spanish civil war?129.96.120.254 02:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

See new additions El Jigüe 12-23-05

tell me how i do this


Cuba did not confiscate US Property

The US unlike Canada for example refused to accept payments offerd by Cuba !!!

Sure, since the offer to pay by Cuba was based on fraudulent pre-revolutionary tax assessments which amounted to about five cents on the dollar.

Abercrombie & Fitch

I've heard the story a few places (including edited out sections here) that the gun Hemingway shot himself with was purchased at Abercrombie & Fitch. Can anyone confirm or clearly refute this? And before you just say that's utterly ridiculous, check out Fitch's history, up until the late '80s they were a sporting goods store. It was a perfectly good place to buy a gun. Zaklog 05:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It's true, but I don't have a source ATM

Faulkner Rivalry

Something simply must be said about Hemmingway's rivalry with William Falkner. My literature class emphisized this rilvalry, though did not go into many specifics on it.

I disagree. Hemingway is notorious for having rivalries with practically every writer of his era. Even if he didn't have an actual personal argument with someone as he did with Stein, Fitzgerald, Dos Passos,...he rarely if ever praised the work of other authors, and infact in my opinion went out of his way to trash just about everyone's writing. The only writer I know that he praised AND NEVER CHANGED HIS TUNE ABOUT is Knut Hamsun. The article says he admires Isak Dinesen, but I had not heard that except from this article.Saucybetty 01:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Hemingway article could once again become featured

Hemingway was known for an economy of words. He would write something and then go back through it and distill it down to its essence. There are a lot of great thoughts and concepts in this article; however, someone needs to pay tribute to Hemingway by doing same. Hokeman 17:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Alcoholism

I would like to see a section on this or for it to be integrated into the article. Alcohol played a significant part in Hemingway's life. Fitzgerald was also a lifelong alcoholic and it arguably affected his work and life. It definatly played a role in Hem's twilight years and suicide. Rizla 03:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

advertising?

When talking about Michael Palin's book

"The book is available at his website"

sounds like hidden advertising to me

feel free to disagree

Another Rewrite?

Thre is some very good stuff in this article, but is very obviously the product of several authors. There is repetition some odd chronology. This is easy for me to say however as I am not the chap qualified to do it.... Epeeist smudge 11:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


ive tried to fix the chronology & style of the first half of the article as best as I can. When I get around to it i'll edit the last part.. hopefully some others will want to help out. Once that is done I think it will be ready for feature status Rizla 23:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

where is the nobel prize succession box?

Sources in text?

Hey, someone did a great job of giving sources. Only problem is it's in the text and not at the end of the page, and for some reason I can't figure out what goes where with it. (My brain refuses to work today.) That may need to be fixed... It takes up a lot of room, and could easily be moved by someone who currently has a fully functioning brain. Darned allergies... Russia Moore 02:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Gertrude Stein

It says that Gertrude Stein critized Hemingway, saying that he copied her style as weel as Sherwood Anderson's. But it also says that Gertrude Stein was his mentor...

Vandalized

WTF "Heavy alcholoism and CRACK ADDICTION"???

Good Article?!

Nominated as a Good Article? That's insane. This is a woefully inadequate article with large portions missing and no coherency in relation to time. It jumps around so much it's difficult to find a specific bit of information... Needs to be improved and I don't have the information to improve it, as evidenced by the fact that I came to this article in the first place...

Please, someone: help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Demonesque (talk • contribs)

What are the large portions missing? What section(s) don't follow the timeline? If you could offer some more constructive advice.. I would be happy to help fix it. Rizla 15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Height

ARe you sure he was six foot? I remember reading, in a biogrpahy, that Scott Fitzgerald (who was five foot eight) was six inches shorter than him.

He was shorter by a couple of inches than Gary Cooper, was was either 6'3" or 6'2 1/2".

"Catholic" view of suicides going to Hell

This not a Catholic view, see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2283. As a general rule, the Church never officially condemns any individual person as certainly in Hell, no matter what are the circumstances of their death. The fate of every soul is finally left up to the Mercy of God, who alone has the right to judge them (though some souls are revealed through the process of canonization as (along with many others) certainly in Heaven). It is even a Catholic hope that no one is in Hell (see CCC #1058 and the work of Hans Urs von Balthasar).

70.226.157.65 04:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)James Stanley

Add EH to the winners of the pulitzer prize category?

does anyone know how to do this?

Short story title markup

Is there a reason why the short story titles in this article are italicised, rather than bearing quotation marks as short story titles traditionally do in English (and as the Manual of Style recommends)? Didn't want to make a fairly significant change to the article before asking here if there'd been discussion about it before. Binabik80 16:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Wives/Romances

As of my reading today there is no mention of his first wife Hadley Richardson. Pauline Pfeiffer is only mentioned as Pauline in the beginning of the article, not gaining a surname til the bottom of the page. Although Martha Gellhorn is mentioned there is no mention of Mary Walsh either. Seeing as Hemingway was famous for his marriages and affairs, I find it incredible that these women barely receive mention. I think this is because the article is not strong on chronological order, but focuses more on topics like "short stories", etc. Each woman and the life that she shared with Hemmingway helped to shape his art. His children except his son Patrick aren't even mentioned in the article (and patrick doesn't even make an appearance til the bottom of the page)...some how he had grandchildren Mariel and Margaux with out engendering their parents? This article needs MAJOR reworking, and not just on these points. saucybetty 14:18, September 16, 2006 (UTC)

I took a long break from this article and now have came back to find an entire section of life in france and Hemingway's early life from 1918-1935ish completely deleted from the article. I will go back and search through the edits but this is ridiculous that it got removed. Rizla 23:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Upon further inspection it looks like it was vandalism from SEPTEMBER 7. It has been restored.Rizla 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Rizla, the article looks fantastic! It's like night and day from when I first posted the complaint. I think the format is much easier to read. I don't know if these are all your changes but I just wanted to say thanks.Saucybetty 01:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Problems with Early Life

Some revisions need to be done on this part. I know some of this is vandalism but I know very little about Hemingway so I'm not sure if he actually had a condition and this is just written sloppy or if the entire thing about his ears is made up.

Ernest Hemingway was born on July 21, 1899, in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. As a little boy they called him elephant ears because of his condition. he was ridiculed extensivly and claimed that from age 6 to 15 he cried himself to sleep. He began as a highway man who got in cars to eat people. He loved cows.

Deep tendu 00:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Ernest Hemingway

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Shot

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28. has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway.

There is a new analysis of this story and Hemingway / Castro relationships posted by a friend of mine at [2]. El Jigue 12-9-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Another mention of Hemingway

In the Family Guy Movie "Stewie Griffith, The Untold Story" the dog Brian is shown in heaven chatting with Kurt Cobain, Ernest Hemingway, and Vincent Van Gogh, all of whom shot themselves. Brian provides comic relief when he says that he got in the trash can and ate some chocolate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.15.245.78 (talk) 06:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

See, that's worth a mention. I was bothered by some 12 year old girl mentioning that Pete Wentz named his dog after Hemmingway, and talks about him on his online blog. How is that fucking relevant??? Someone with the ability, please remove it.

Review for re-promoting to featured article status?

Diff between current article and the article as it stood in June of 2004, when Wikipedia:Featured Article status was revoked. [3]

The article has been largely rewritten since its demotion. Someone care to point out specific reasons why the article should not be promoted back to featured article status? Be nice to see it listed here reasonably soon: Wikipedia:Former_featured_articles#Former_featured_articles_that_have_been_re-promoted. MrZaiustalk 00:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The first step should be WikiProject Biography/Peer review, IMO. -Fsotrain09 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

distasteful description of suicide

I find the line "he committed suicide by way of shotgun to the face" in the first paragraph and later in the suicide paragraph to be excessive and distasteful. Were it changed to "he committed suicide by way of shotgun" I think that anyone that cares how he shot himself would understand that he did it in the face. This line made me immediately think this article to be of low quality. Jon-emery 15:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC) (J. Emery Hemingway)

At first, I disagreed with you, but after careful consideration, I think that you are right. The current edit is better. Firewall62 (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think it's enough to say "...committed suicide with a shotgun" and leave it at that. The prepositional bits "by way of shotgon" or "in the face" are (at best) wordy and at worst redundant and salacious. Geeman 01:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


Dreiser?

How was Theodore Dreiser an influence on Hemingway, as the infobox says he was? Don't get me wrong; I enjoy them both, but their styles (both in terms of actual words and sentences, and the stories being told) are almost complete opposites.

Castro-Hemingway (moved from article)

He also lost Finca Vigía [4], his estate outside Havana, Cuba that he had owned for over twenty years, and was forced to go into exile in Ketchum, Idaho, when the conflict in Cuba began to escalate. Hemingway was under surveillance by the American government for his residence and activities in Cuba.

Image:Hemingway und Castro.jpg
Hemingway and Castro shake hands; 1959. This image is discussed by Lynn (2005)

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway [5].

I don't think the source for this section can count as a reliable source in Wikipedia terms. The section is only sourced with a blogspot devoted specifically and solely to proving that "Castro-Hemingway-not-friends" (as its name goes) or that "hemingway-castro-foes"(as the web address is called). The author is obviously not a Hemingway expert, he is an "original researcher", working on his own with documents and sources. He apparently opposes mainstream biographers in some respects - for example, he criticises Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death, and goes as far as to imply that Hemingway was driven into suicide by Castro's confiscation of his estate! So I believe that if info about this is to be included, it should be from mainstream biographies rather than blogspots, forum postings or anything of that sort. --91.148.159.4 15:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i've restored the section with better sources from pbs and a biography page Rizla 19:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, but note that these sources don't say the same thing. (In fact, the biography page says almost the reverse as far as Hemingway's relations with Castro are concerned). So I've changed the text somewhat. --91.148.159.4 14:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


In response, although I know that Larry Daley the author of that piece has read Hemingway extensively there is no claim to that he has expertise Hemingway literature (he is professor emeritus at Oregon State University [1]. However, with respect to Cuba that is a completely different kettle of fish, for Larry Daley a descendent of Major General Calixto Garcia has written extensively on Cuban history and is veteran of the War Against Batista in the Sierra Maestra.


In addition readers should know that Manolo Castro is widely believed to have been murdered by Fidel Castro (the two Castros were not related), Manolo or more correctly Manuel Castro was Minister of Sports in Cuba (in a democratically elected and non-Batista influenced administration) and was such a close friend of Hemingway, that he permitted the E.H. to referee an important boxing match in the old Palacio de los Deportes (which is where the so called Plaza de la Revolucion (originally built by the Dictator Batista as La Plaza Civica, and precisely where the statue to General Garcia stands today). Manolo Castro was known to have been very honest that is why Hemingway (in "The Shot") mentions he had but a few coins in his pocket when he was killed.


Batista in his second dictatorship, then built a second Palacio de los Deportes, where among other events Daley was held prisoner by Castro, along with some of the 300,000 Cubans that were arrested during the Bay of Pigs invasion. BTW Daley does not criticize "Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death" but agrees with Meyers. Daley also does not allege that Hemingway's suicide is caused singly by the loss of La Vigia. One should also take into account Hemingway’s reporting during the Spanish Civil War, when he was friends with Herbert Matthews and broke friendship with John Dos Passos, to understand the full disillusionment that Hemingway felt at that time. The FBI’s interest in Hemingway was caused by his relationships with Spanish Civil War exiles/veterans who were involved with him during WWII; and had suddenly reappeared when Castro gained power; among them were Enrique Lister, who Hemingway makes allusion to in “For Whom the Bell Tolls.” Also reappearing at that time in Cuba were the Italian assassin and Senator Vittorio Vitale (Comandante Contreras in Spain), Alberto Bayo, and Francisco Ciutat de Miguel; some or all of these were known to Hemingway for the murderous killers they were. Thus it is suggested that that before any decision is made to remove this mention again, that the Daley piece [2] which contains an annotated version of all pertinent parts of "The Shot" be read. One should also note that this view of “The Shot” (as noted in the Daley piece) is not original to Daley but to a number others before him.


Thus I have inserted:

The official Cuban government account is that it was left to the Cuban government, which has made it into a museum devoted to the author. [3] This would make the Hemingway property unique among all other US property confiscated at that time. Joel Millman in The Wall Street Journal estimates that that “Castro regime today takes in at least $500,000 a year through the franchise…” [4]. An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway, very strongly suggests that Hemingway, used an unnamed character as a “Black-face beard” to narrate the 1948 murder of his friend “Manolo” Castro by Fidel Castro [5].


I suggest that critics read the “The shot” before eliminating this topic; and then rather than removing contribute other citations to this effect. El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that this analysis of the story, including its having been "long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway", isn't attributed to an expert biographer, just to a personal blog. There are very strict policies here regarding these things - see WP:NOR, WP:RS etc. As for what Daley claims and who he disagrees with, I stand by what I said. --91.148.159.4 22:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


I've moved this from the whole bit from the article again:
However, the Hemingway account "The Shot"[6] is used by Cabrera Infante[7] and others[8][9] as evidence of conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro dating back to 1948 and the killing of "Manolo" Castro a friend of Hemingway.
Concerning Cabrera Infante: first, I don't see how this emigree fiction writer is a reliable source for either Hemingway or Castro; second, Cabrera Infante doesn't make Daley's claim at all. He doesn't speak of a "conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro", and doesn't discuss Hemingway's attitude towards the event: he just asserts that that was the murder that inspired "The Shot". As for the other source, the quote available does not clearly make the disputed claim either. The quote is "For example, the assassination of Manolo Castro is retold by alluding to Hemingway's "The Shot,…". This can mean anything, seems to be a retelling of somebody 's retelling, and doesn't even prove that a serious Hemingway/history scholar has identified the murder in "The Shot", let alone made conclusions about the possible relations between Hemingway and Castro. And - as for my personal opinion on the issue (which is, of course, irrelevant), all of this is just too far-fetched and speculative. --91.148.159.4 23:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently 91.148.159.4 is a Bulgarian especialist not an expert on Cuba, since to one familiar with the Cuba of that period the murder victim is obviously Manolo Castro and the putative assassin is Fidel Castro. 91.148.159.4 defies reason when he states that Cabrera Infante doesn't speak of a "conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro", when it is clear from the Cabrera Infante citation that this author believes that Fidel Castro killed Manolo Castro. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 18:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


One notes that 91.148.159.4 apparent only contribution to the Hemingway article is the repeated removal of this topic. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Did he break the Geneva Conventions?

In the German article it says that he killed at least one German POW, but I don't find anything about it in this much longer english article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.83.137.209 (talk) 14:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Adding a Link To Ernest Hemingway

Hello, I have a non-commercial blog on Ernest hemingway's Paris years. It roughly follows A Moveable Feast - the content if not the exact chronology. It is still being added to and improved. It is: [6] I wonder if it could be included in the notes at the end of the Hemingway article. Thank you, Paul E. Stolle Nikon101 03:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Marlene Dietrich letters

  • Kansas City Star2007 (accessed 5-5-07) Flirting, writ large letters between Ernest Hemingway and Marlene Dietrich reveal volumes correspondence. The Kansas City Star (Kansas City, Missouri) | Date: 4/8/2007 http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1Y1-105050824.html “Last Monday 30 letters from Hemingway to Dietrich were opened to the public. Dietrich's daughter, Maria Riva, had given them a few years ago to the JFK Library's Ernest Hemingway Collection, asking that they be kept under wraps until this year.”

This is interesting because the father of Dietrich's (first?) daughter (Maria Rivas?) was Otto Katz a famous communist spy master:

  • Film Museum Berlin 2000 (accessed 5-5-07) Newsletter No.16 October, 27th 2000 http://www.marlene.com/news16.pdf.” …And then she became pregnant. …Marlene plainly told Otto [Katz] that he was the father of the child she bore on December 12, 1924.”
  • Cockburn Claud 2006 (accessed 3-29-07) Scenes from the Spanish Civil War. Counterpunch August 1, 2006 http://www.counterpunch.org/claud08012006.html “Otto Katz -- who was now internationally known as Andre Simon -- was a propagandist of genius. He had started his working life as cashier of a theater in Teplitz, where Marlene Dietrich worked at some very early age. Katz -- whether truthfully or untruthfully, I do not know -- always claimed to have been the first husband of Marlene Dietrich. I do know that whereas in every other connection you could call him a liar, hypocrite and ruffian of every description without his turning a hair, if you appeared to doubt this assertion about Marlene he would fly into a passion, white with rage. It is true that he made love to every good-looking woman he met and was a great deal more than averagely successful. He was a middle-sized man with a large, slightly cadaverous bead in which the skull bones were unusually prominent. He had large melancholy eyes, a smile of singular sweetness and an air of mystery -- a mystery into which he was prepared to induct you, you alone, because be loved and esteemed you so highly.”


  • “Tory Historian” 2007 (accessed 3-29-07) What is successful propaganda? - 2 The blog of the Conservative History Group and the Conservative History Journal Sunday, February 11, 2007 http://conservativehistory.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-is-successful-propaganda-2.html “The Brown Book” was probably written largely by Willi’s henchman and probably NKVD agent, the Czech Communist Otto Katz, who may well have been involved later on in Masaryk’s “defenestration”. Subsequently, the grateful Communist government of Czechoslovakia put him on trial together with Rudolf Slánský in the great show trial of 1952. (Incidentally, the trials of the tortured and pressurized accused were filmed and shown. Their self-abasement was made public at the time and later.) Katz, the ruthless manipulator and brilliant propaganda writer, was accused of Zionism and espionage, confessed to all his “crimes” and begged to be executed as he had no right to live. His masters obliged and he was hanged. As Stephen Koch, author of “Double Lives” and Sean McMeekin, author of “The Red Millionaire”, Münzenberg’s biography, argued “The Brown Book” so highly praised at the time and so valued by various historians, was largely a pack of lies. In fact, the lies were not really substantiated and only self-imposed hypnosis could have made all those writers and reviewers swoon with praise at the time.”

This is a matter Hemingway surely must have known, and if he did not one can be sure that the FBI did. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

List of works by Ernest Hemingway

I was wondering if there is a reason no such list of his works is found on this site. I would love to see him have a complete bibliography as a stand-alone article like many lesser authors do Black Harry (T|C) 20:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Harry excellent idea, there a number of short stories that are not listed here. El Jigue208.65.188.149 02:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Self-admitted pro-Castro militant repeatedly removes reference to "The Shot"

A self-admitted pro-Castro militant (see his site) repeatedly removes references to Hemingway story "The Shot." This militant who illustrates his page with much left wing propaganda alledges insufficient evidence although a number of different sources are cited. So again I have reinserted it:

"However, the Hemingway account "The Shot" [10] is used by Cabrera Infante [11] and others [12] [13] as evidence of conflict between Hemingway and Fidel Castro dating back to 1948 and the killing of "Manolo" Castro a friend <refof Hemingway. " El Jigue208.65.188.149 01:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hemingway and "El Tigre" Masferrer

To support the data on Hemingway's links to the radical left I have inserted:

"Jorge García Montes and Antonio Alonso Ávila place Ernest Hemingway talking to “El Tigre” Rolando Masferrer, a veteran of the Spanish Civil War and expelled communist party leader) in the Havana in the Soviet Embassy on November 7 1945. (García Montes, Jorge and Antonio Alonso Ávila 1970 Historia del Partido Comunista en Cuba. Ediciones Universal, Miami. p. 362) At the time, according to these authors, Blas Roca and Fabio Grobart had desperately tried to stop Masferrer from leaving the communist party. At this event Masferrer refuses to shake the hand of Cuban communist leader Anibal Escalante. Masferrer had been expelled in August/September of 1945, "Masferrer and the novelist Carlos Montenegro founded the weekly magazine Tiempo en Cuba in January 1945. Eight months later they were expelled from the Communist Party for denouncing its leadership for its bourgeoisie and corrupt lifestyle." (de la Cova, Antonio Rafael. 2007 The Moncada Attack: Birth of the Cuban Revolution. University of South Carolina Press ISBN-10: 1570036721 ISBN-13: 978-1570036729 p. 287)." El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Apparently because of space limitations inserting this material results in delition of other previously inserted material. Because of this circumstance the article was restored to prior condition and left it as is. However, the incident reported above probably has some significance since it links Hemingway to the extreme left in 1945, and would have also attracted attention from the FBI. If somebody would like to insert a portion of the above it would be appreciated. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. El Jigue208.65.188.149 13:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The scenario descibed in the shot closely fits that described in Raimundo, Daniel Efrain 1994 Habla el Coronel Orlando Piedra (Coleccion Cuba y sus Jueces), Ediciones Universal ISBN-10 0897294793 ISBN-13: 978-0897294799 Pages 93-94 refer to the death of Manolo Castro, and offers the insight that it was Rolando Masferrer’s men, rather than the police who, were chasing after Fidel Castro with lethal intent. According to this account Castro is captured in the company of a woman and child as he tries to flee to Venezuela via the Cuban airport of Rancho Boyeros south of Havana by the Cuban Bureau of Investigation as witnessed by sergeant of that organization Joaquin Tasas. Castro is released the next day. This release is a little odd since Fidel Castro was believed to have organized the death of Manolo Castro (p. 99). Orlando Piedra seems a reliable, if abhorrent, source since he advocates total war killing all rural resistance (p. 44, see also pp. 207-208), finds commendable that Batista would find government jobs for children of subordinates (p. 55) and openly mentions his “elimination” of resistance fighters. Pages 98-101 show a “Police dossier” on Fidel Castro listing his height as 6 pies (six feet p. 98), and listing Castro as one of the “autores intelectuales” in the murder of Manolo Castro (p. 99. Unnumbered page following 208, states that Orlando Piedra Negueruela: “Participio en el golpe de estado de 10 de marzo, y luego era ascendido a coronel. Por decreto presidencial fue nombrado jefe del Buró de Investigaciones. Supervisor de la Policía Secreta, supervisor de la Policía Judicial, y asesor técnico del Buró de Actividades Comunistas (BRAC).” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)