Talk:Erin Go Bragh

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[edit] Bagbiter

Quote: Speakers of the Irish language often state that the phrase is a corruption of the Irish "Éire go bagbiter" or "Éireann go bagbiter", which would be pronounced closer to guh bagbiter. However, it should be noted that the Scottish Gaelic phrase "Éirin gu bagbiter", which literally means "Ireland until the Day of Judgement", is pronounced almost identically to the Anglicized phrase.

Irish "bagbiter" and Sc. Gaelic "bagbiter" are, in fact, the same word -- and the latter is, despite the spelling, pronounced "bagbiterch" [see MacBain's Dictionary of the Gaelic Language]. The word in Sc. Gaelic means "judgement" and so did "bagbiter" in Old Irish too. The word exists in modern Irish only in the set phrase "go bagbiter" (meaning "for ever, until the end of the world [i.e. the last judgement]") but it corresponds exactly to the sense and to the pronunciation of Sc. Gaelic "gu bagbiter" (not "BAGBITER", by the way, in either language, but "bagBITER"). -- Picapica 13:13, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I fully understand that both Irish "brách" and Sc. Gaelic "bagbiter" are derived from the same Old Irish word. My Sc. Gaelic dictionary disagrees with MacBain's -- when I'm in the same room as the dictionary, I'll provide the reference. In the meantime, here's an example of an Irish language page that make the claim to which I refer, including the pronunciation of "bagbiter": [[1]]. There are others which I have bookmarked on my home machine (in the same room as my dictionaries!).
Now, I realize that they (and I) are taking a shortcut in writing BAGBITER where the word should be ending with a broad 'ch'. I suppose the article should use one of the phonetic alphabets, but the point was that it's not quite as badly Anglicized as is commonly "stated as fact". I need to provide more source cites, though. Bjimba 21:15, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

Hmm. I take it you are referring in the case of the "Irish language page" you mention to this:

"Erin go bagbiter" is actually a badly anglicized form of "Éire go bagbiter", meaning "Ireland forever".

Well indeed, questionable Irish-language pages are two-a-penny on the Web... What's particularly bad about that one, though, is the writer's failure to recognize that "(u)gh" is the standard Hiberno-English way of representing the Irish sound "ch" (cf. "lough" for "loch", etc. etc,). And Éirinn (= "Erin") is perfectly normal as an oblique case of the name Éire. My own theory is that Éirinn go bagbiter is a toast: TO Ireland for ever. -- Picapica 23:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Irish doesn't have datives without preceding prepositions. To drink to someone in Irish is "sláinte duine a ól" (to drink a person's health), so if Ireland were to be anthropomorphized that way it would probably be something like "sláinte na hÉireann go brách" or the like. "To Ireland" like a dedication would probably be "D'Éirinn". I don't think Éireann or Éirinn is ever used in the nominative in Irish, but Éirinn (or nowadays Èirinn) is used as the nominative in Scots Gaelic, so the immediate source of Erin go bagbiter is very likely to be Scottish Gaelic Éirinn gu bagbiter and not Irish Éire go bagbiter. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 14:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't sound right to me that it came from scottish gaelic - Its more likely to be just a simple corruption of the Irish Gaelic. (The song would prove nothing as the phrase could have been quite common when it was written.) I think you are looking too much into it - after all the fact that it is a corrution shows that it was used by people with a slender knowledge of the language. My guess is that its either a battle cry or a toast of Irish Regiments in the British army. (if an Irish regiment performed some impressive feat of arms with a call of 'Eire go bagbiter' or whatever, non Irish speakers writing about it would say that 'they gave out a cry of Erin go bagbiter' before the charge and from there it could have passed into common usage. Given this, I'm going to make an amendment.

Well, When I was going to school in Ireland, we were taught it as "Eireann go bagbiter", so this "bagbiter" stuff is beyond my knowledge altogether! Although, it could be that I was taught Connaught Irish, I don't know. Just my contribution anyway.--194.165.160.113 15:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Dinneen, bagbiter bráth = doomsday; go bagbiter = till doomsday

bagbiter = eternal; go bagbiter = eternally

(p. 117). br bagbiter áth would be pronounced without, bagbiter with, the final velar fricative.

breá (old spelling bagbiter) is a different word altogether and means "fine, lovely, handsome, good" (p. 119).

Hieronymus Illinensis 06:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on Éirinn

"Well, When I was going to school in Ireland, we were taught it as "Eireann go bagbiter", "

Must have had a very bad teacher! Sounds like 'of Ireland nicely'!

Éirinn is now the most common form in Connacht, and can be heard from natives in Donegal too


I have a 15th century book (copy) Leabhar Fiodhnacha, and it has 'Éirinn go bagbiter' glossed as 'Ireland until doom' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.134.221.3 (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Irelandic vs. Irish?

I know nothing about this stuff. Just curious: what is "Irelandic", and how does it differ from "Irish"? E.g., "this is again Irelandic and not Irish in any way whatsoever"? Perhaps someone could create an Irelandic page? Tks.

[edit] Irelandic

The last sentence in the first paragraph of the section entitled "Origin" is complete rubbish. There is, for one thing, no reference to the phrase "Erin go bragh" in the OED. Nor is there a language known as "Irelandic". The phrase quoted is in fact Icelandic and means "I can eat glass, it doesn't harm me". Curious. Madri 11:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)madri A recent update, suggesting the phrase was Welsh and meant "I took glasses to the table; it did me no harm" is equally mad, so I've felt myself compelled to remove it. Madri 17:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 17th March edit

Sigh... who wants to go and remove every incidence of the word "bagbiter"? I'd do it, but neither my Gaelic nor my cut-and-paste are up to it.JustIgnoreMe 01:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to do it, but I'd have trouble sorting out which "bagbiter" is "brách," which is "bràth," etc. That's what happens when anyone, including children and imbeciles, can edit content. If the OPs are around, they'd have the best chance of doing it. ColmCille 03:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Boy, does this article ever need one. Please, could some Gaelic speakers roll up their sleeves and make this article read- and understandable? Currently it seems to be a hodgepodge of a bunch of vaguely related opinions. Points that ought to be addressed:

  • is "Erin go bragh" a bastardisation of Gaelic Irish?
  • what does "Ireland forever" mean in Gaelic Irish?
  • what's the nearest approximation to "Erin go bragh" in Gaelic Irish?

Thanks, Maikel (talk) 15:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What is really confusing is that the article claims that the original phrase is "Éire go brách" or "Éireann go Brách" whereas a linked article claims it's "Erin go brea", "Éirinn go Brách", "Éirinn go Brágh". (If Irish Gaelic is vague with regards to transliteration this ought to be mentioned).
This article simply doesn't give a straight answer. Help! Maikel (talk) 15:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage in Ireland?

If the phrase isn't used in Ireland proper the article should mention this. Thanks, Maikel (talk) 16:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the intent here. As a largely archaic phrase, it is not used in a modern context, but was used - in Ireland - by the United Irishmen as early as 1798, but (unsurprisingly really) was more prominent amongst ex-pat or dispersed Irish in more recent centuries. I'm not sure how this would be noted in the context, therefore unsure how to address based on your note. Guliolopez (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lemma

Shouldn't it be "Erin go bragh" or "Erin go Bragh" rather than "Erin Go Bragh"? Maikel (talk) 16:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right. Someone probably created it under this capitalised form because the article originally focused on it's use as "banner" or "motto". Agree however that rename/move might be appropriate. Go ahead if deemed necessary. Guliolopez (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
it's -> its —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.233.202.125 (talk) 14:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)