Talk:Erie, Pennsylvania

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[edit] Appalachia

Erie isn't in the northern portion of Appalachia, according to the Wiki map of Appalachia, and I'm not sure it is useful to say Erie is north of Appalachia. It might be useful to state the geographic or geologic zone in which Erie lies, but I don't know what that zone might be. I would recommend removing the reference to Appalachia and finding out which zone Erie is in.Pat 19:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As a former resident of Erie, and someone whose family has a summer home along the Allegheny, I can state that Erie is not in Appalachia. Erie is flat. Changing. superlusertc 2007 July 11, 01:53 (UTC)
I wouldn't say Erie is flat (someplaces it is) but still not part of Appalachia. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 01:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] photos

If it is relatively nice this weekend, I plan on taking pictures of Erie for its wiki page. I need help thinking of what pictures to take! If you could please give me some ideas, they would be appreciated. Thanks, --TREYWiki 20:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You should go to the peninisula & get some pictures of the Erie skyline. The article has been needing a better one for as long as I can remember. —​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 21:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's some ideas to jog your memory. Maybe a photo of the Perry memorial down at State St near 5th ST? The Warner Theatre on State ST. The Erie Convention Center complex, including Uht Stadium on French ST. The Erie Veterans Memorial Stadium at 26th ST and State, I believe. The Maritime museum, the Blasco Memorial Library, and an interesting statue to the right of the county library. The Erie Cemetery is on Chesnut ST around 21st ST, I believe. The Brig Niagara. The new casino is just off the interstate. Upper Peach ST. General Electric? A crumbling factory or two south of 12th ST between State and I-79? Some of the major medical facilities like Hamot. Gannon or Mercyhurst? One or two of the water parks? Have fun! Pat 01:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sales Tax

Do you think we should mention that most out-of-state shoppers come to Erie for Pennsylvania's lack of a sales tax?
—​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 02:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but now living afar, I am not sufficiently fluent in sales tax differences these days to do it myself. Go for it! (Where one finds a suitable citation is another question.) DagnyB 02:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm from (and currently live in) Erie, and we definitely have a sales tax (6%). The reason shoppers come here, I think, is because it's lower - most seem to come from Ontario from what I can tell, if that helps any. 71.116.16.109 05:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Clothing is exempted from the Pennsylvania sales tax. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 16:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Clothing and most groceries are exempt. In any case, it really doesn't need mentioned, as this activity takes place on pretty much all borders of all states, where one has an advantage over the other. Search4Lancer 04:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Presque Isle Downs

Can we move this out of the Arts and Culture section? I don't believe it quite qualifies as either. (Sports, perhaps?) DagnyB 02:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

For some reason I feel that a casino is something that is a part of culture. In September when the race track opens at the Presque Isle Downs then, no doubt about it, it should be moved to sports. I suggest waiting until then (September or whenever the race track eventually opens) to move it. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 00:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bates History of Erie

It might be interesting to make a separate external link set at the end of this article for the seven chapters of Part III of the History of Erie County by Samuel Bates (1884). That section of the book deals exclusively with the City of Erie and is a fine baseline of local history. The pages are in Rootsweb, which has a generous usage policy that simply requires acknowledgment and prohibits commercial use. If we mention Rootsweb and the transcriber, we should be good to go. Let me know if such a venture would somehow violate Wiki rules. Here are the links and titles.

Pat 17:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I discovered the main page for this collection at this URL. I didn't think there was a home page for this collection, but there is. Maybe just an external link then would suffice? Pat 17:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many subsections

The article has too many subsections and is causing a really long table of contents, per peer review (4th bullet), we should consider merging some of the subsections or something. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 21:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

When I wrote some sections, I kept them as compact (without to many subsections) as possible, but they keep getting split up; growing and growing every time I look at the page. I think we should clean it up a little. --TREYWiki 22:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we delete the subsection heading and go from there. Then, we could try to smooth (make a less abrupt of a change from one topic to another) the transitions between the former subsections. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 22:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Mea culpa. I was overzealous with splitting up the sections into subsections (subs). I've removed many of them from the article as mentioned. The practice is not without its benefits, however. I've found that titling subs can highlight how very little is actually included on a given subject and point out the need to bolster a section. For example, this town dwells on its role in the War of 1812, so coverage of that subject could be augmented (and the actual War of 1812 article needs to be checked for Erie facts if this hasn't been done). Labeling of subsections also reveals how little there is about the city's role in the westward movement, the Civil War and the Underground Railroad, the industrial revolution, unionization, the Red Scares, the two world wars, etc, etc. We leave the city's history at the Gauge War circa 1855, over a hundred and fifty years ago. I thought some subs might prompt some writing in those areas, but we can take a different approach if Wiki frowns on overdoing the subs. Pat 07:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

We should think about starting an article on the History of Erie, Pennsylvania and move all historical info (except for a summary) to that page. A lot of big articles do that (Presque Isle does that) --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 21:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Ive got it cut down really well, I've removed all the list's. I think this is well past GA status. Now all we need is that damn skyline picture where the sun is actually out.

[edit] Economics Section

I found an interesting article on brownfields, Keystone Opportunity Zones, the GEIDC, and the City and County of Erie, which could supplement the Economics section nicely with additional facts. see Brownfields

The Economics section could use a discussion of the banking industry. The Samuel Bates book has a lengthy section on banks. The national banking system was a hot issue in early Erie history. We even have an historic building in town that used to be a branch bank of the Second US Bank. The Bates book also includes information on the local gas company, the beginnings of telegraph and telephone service here, and even some historical details about the local hospitals. Pat 07:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cemeteries and religion (and a bit about schools)

I checked Philadelphia, New York, and Boston, all of which have quite famous cemeteries. Yet none makes any mention of cemeteries on their city pages. Even religions get the heave-ho, except for general mentions of Catholics and Jews on the New York City page due to their ethnicity. I'm sure there is a Wiki rule somewhere about all this, but religion and burial seem important parts of city culture and ought to be included.

But if we want to mimic other pages, and get a high rating, it looks like we should change the section title to Demographics. That is, we should remove Religion from the title. Cemeteries can't be mentioned, apparently.

I've already created separate pages for Trinity Cemetery (Catholic) and Erie Cemetery (civic). The Bates book [1] has some more cemeteries -- Presbyterian, Episcopal, Evangelical Lutheran, German Evangelical, and Jewish, plus a few comments about the earliest gravesites in the city, prior to 1805. I could create a Cemeteries of Erie, Pennsylvania article, I guess, although Philadelphia used categories to group their articles on prominent cemeteries and gave up on the rest, apparently.

I must say that the Wiki Rules are quite hard on genealogists and biographers, who would cherish having this sort of information available. The concept of "notability" is an amazing bias. I ran into that when I began to study the private schools of Erie. A WikiProject Schools person took issue with notability and not only removed my additions but added an invisible comment that only notable schools need apply. Unfortunately, the unintended bias of a notability barrier is that Erie appears to only have Catholic private schools, which is not the case.

If you subscribe to GoErie (it's free to register), check out the article in Tuesday's (5-22-07) Erie Times News [2] re the Old Almshouse Cemetery, in Fairview. It mentions that 443 bodies were relocated there from an old pauper's cemetery that was discovered in the 1970's at the corner of West 23rd Street and Pittsburgh Avenue in Erie. The article provides information for the Fairview, Erie, and Erie County (coroner's office and coroner who has served many years) articles. I checked the Samuel Bates book on Erie County and found no mention of the pauper's cemetery in the history of the city cemeteries 1805 to 1884. Who knows where the city's pauper graveyard fits in the Wiki scheme of city life? Pat 07:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Excellent article. These need fixing though: Y Done

  • Web references need to include the dates the articles were written/published. For example, in ref 66.Y Done
  • If possible, replace ref 76 with one that doesn't require a user account.N Not done I cannot find a replacement, it is a free sign up. --T. Wiki 20:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Duplicated refs such as 63, 64 and 68 can be combined. See here: Citing a footnote more than onceY Done
  • If possible, replace dead web refs, such as ref 19.Y Done
  • All fair-use images need a fair use rationale.Y Done, most are in the PD. I added fair use to ones that are not.--T. Wiki 01:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Ampersands shouldn't be used.Y Done
  • "right next to the Convention Center and hotel currently under construction." Phrases like this should be avoided as they soon become outdated.Y Done
  • Both A.m. and AM are used in the article. It needs to be consistent which one is used. I think AM is maybe the correct term.Y Done
  • "The university is noted for being one of the best value colleges in the country." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • "number one rated division II lacrosse team in the US" Does division need a capital D?Y Done
  • "The city council meets in council chambers at City Hall." Sentences like this are too short to be their own paragraph. The article has other short paragraphs as well.Y Done
  • The 'See also' templates should be moved to the top of the sections.Y Done
  • "Environmentalism is very strong in Erie" This needs a citation.Y Done, well kinda. I re-worded the statement and provided a reference.--T. Wiki 01:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
  • "Semi-Pro and Professional Sports Teams." I don't think these need capitals.Y Done
  • "The oldest lighthouse on all of the Great Lakes stands at the foot of Lighthouse Street in the city." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • "Erie is a regional leader in health care." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • "30-40 million gallons of wastewater everyday" The 'minus dash' between the numbers should be replaced by an 'en dash'. Read Dash for the correct use of dashes.Y Done
  • Could the problem with the layout of the 'Demographics and religion' section be fixed?Y Done
  • "Erie has long been declining in population due to the departure of many businesses and factories." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • "Erie currently stands 13 on the snowiest places" Should it be "13th"?Y Done
  • "became part of Pennsylvania on 3 March 1792" There are many dates in the history section that need wikilinking.Y Done
  • The first occurance of "$" should be wikilinked.Y Done
  • "His fleet successfully fought the British in the historic Battle of Lake Erie, which was the decisive victory that solidified United States control of the Great Lakes." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • "The citizens of Erie, led by the mayor, set fire to bridges, ripped up track, and in general did everything imaginable to delay the inevitable standardization." This needs a citation.Y Done
  • There shouldn't be any citations in the lead, and the lead shouldn't contain any information not mentioned in the rest of the article.N Not done see below

Let me know when these are sorted, or if you disagree with any. Thanks. Epbr123 00:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I should have made this clearer but the only dates that need linking are ones that have the day, month & year or have the day & month. Years on their own don't need linking. Epbr123 16:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm not so sure about not having citations in the lead. Could you please give me an example? Thanks. --T. Wiki 20:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
      • After doing some research, it appears that there is no guideline that prevents the use of citations in the lead. It seems to be matter of personal choice. Some editors believe that, for the sake of tidiness, citations aren't needed as the info will be cited elsewhere in the article. However, other editors believe that citations enable readers to verify the lead's info without having to search for the citation elsewhere in the article. So basically, do what you think's best. Epbr123 21:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent) If its OK with you (I.E. you wont fail it because of the citations) I would like to keep them.--T. Wiki 23:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pass! Well done to everyone who contributed to the article. Epbr123 09:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Panoramic shot

I just wanted to say that I love the picture from the early 1900s. Great find! --Write_On_1983 talk | contribs 23:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economy

I was thinking of creating an Economy of Erie, Pennsylvania article and shortening the current Economy section. The GA guidelines suggest this as a good practice. I would certainly like to see more details included in the Economy section, but I realize such details can be too micro-oriented for the general reader on Erie. I came across a blurb in Sunday's Erie Times-News, for example, that mentioned the Technology Council of Northwest Pennsylvania (TCNWP). A bit of research and I found their website [3]. I learned that Erie is in the Erie KIZ (Keystone Innovation Zone) [4] [5], one of a number of programs [6] of the Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development (DCED). KIZ aims to bring businesses and universities together towards development. There's even a nifty KIZ graphic we might use. But I don't see adding this to the Erie article, so maybe it is time to expand the economy, so to speak? Any thoughts or objections?--Pat 16:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

By all means, go ahead. --​​​​Dtbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 16:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Little Italy

I found an interesting book at the library called "Growing Up In Little Italy" by John L Fatica. The book is extremely casual in tone, not what you'd call a scholarly piece, but it provides a flavor of an Erie neighborhood during the Depression. Little Italy seems to be defined as the area north of West 19th Street, south of the railroad tracks (roughly what would be West 13th Street), east of Cranberry Street, and west of Cherry Street. There is a city history sign near St. Paul's labeling the neighborhood as Little Italy. I suggest that we need a section on such neighborhoods as Little Italy, such as the Russian neighborhood near East 2nd Street and German Street, the Polish neighborhood east of Parade Street and south of East 12th Street, et al. I assume there must have been Irish and German sections as well. It might belong as part of a new article extending the demographics and religion section of the Erie page? --Pat 18:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"Neighborhoods of Erie". Very good idea, Pat.--trey 19:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images?

What's going on with the images on this page? Much out of alignment. OMG. --Pat 00:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Err I am a little frustrated right now. I went to preqsue isle to watch "boom on the bay" then got caught in a 1 hour and 30 minute traffic jam getting off the peninsula.--trey 03:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm borrowing a laptop. It has odd screen settings. That seems to be the issue. Sorry about the traffic jam. I watched the show from above Mercyhurst campus. Small, but no traffic. No pictures for a few weeks. Save up your requests for August. Busy with summer project, plus trip.--Pat 00:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biofuel

Whoever inserted the bit about Erie producing lots of biofuel is (sadly) misinformed - the plant isn't yet open and is actually meeting with a lot of popular protest. The developers are only talking, not building, at this point. Source 30, the source they use to cite the biofuel production, will prove me right - you don't even need to follow the link; just look at the title. 71.116.16.109 06:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Presque Isle Bay

I've created a Presque Isle Bay article at long last. The Erie article's geography section suggests that Erie is on Lake Erie, which is true on the easternmost part of the city, but most of Erie is actually on the bay and the bay has a channel that feeds into the lake. The three main tributaries that pass through the city -- Cascade Creek, Garrison Run, and Mill Creek -- feed into the bay, not the lake. Any discussion of the relative merits of changing the text? --Pat (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Mclane

I've removed the GM sports tidbit because, it is not a part of the city. For an illustration of why, here's what I'd say: what if in the Edinboro, PA article we wrote, "the region is home to McDowell High School, Cathedral Prep, and Strong Vincent, who have through the years won many state titles in various sports."

I hope this has enlightened us as to why this doesnt belong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.184.170 (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Law and government

Maybe we should include a discussion of the US Congressional districts that Erie has been part of over the years. District lines are modified as necessary based on population changes every ten years after the census results are in. But I just noticed that Erie's representative used to belong to Pennsylvania's 11th congressional district when Samuel Smith was Erie's rep in the early 19th century. That district is now on the other end of the state, covering Scranton and environs. Erie is currently part of Pennsylvania's 3rd congressional district. There might be a story there? Other district changes may also be notable, I don't know. A paragraph on congressional representation would also provide an opportunity to mention one or two prominent reps, if any are particularly worthy of note. I posted a note to the talk page for the 11th suggesting that a history be done of the district lines. I can't volunteer for the task myself, but I throw the idea to the group in case anyone is inspired. Thesis time for me, so I'm booked for a while. --Pat (talk) 08:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Misleading Citation

I removed from the Demographics and Religion section the following statement: " . . . but it is predicted Erie will rebound and once again be the third-largest [city in Pennsylvania]." Though this prediction was cited (http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071021/NEWS02/710210404), I removed it because it was misleading as used.

Here's why: the cited article details the recent population growth of downtown Erie. The article notes that this growth is part of nation-wide trend: "This trend is occurring in small, medium and large cities across the country, including Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. . . . There is a pent-up demand for urban living, even in cities that are otherwise struggling to retain residents and businesses." The prediction that Erie will once again become Pennsylvania's third largest city comes from the following sentence: "Mayor Joe Sinnott sees the trend helping to restore Erie as the state's third-largest city, bypassing Allentown." This prediction by Erie's Mayor seems more like wishful thinking than a bona fide prediction. It appears to be the unfleeting optimism that one expects from a civic leader, not an actual prediction based upon any sort of reasoned analysis of demographic trends. To the contrary, the thrust of the article is that Erie, just like cities nationwide, is experiencing a growth of its downtown population, despite the fact that the city as a whole is losing residents.

That is why I removed the cited statment. If someone can provide a legitimate citation for such a prediction, I encouge him or her to include it. "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 04:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)