Talk:Ergodic literature
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[edit] Cleanup efforts
Most of the works listed here as ergodic literature are clearly NOT ergodic literature based on Espen Aarseth's definition and the term's use in academic texts. This article really needs clearing up - I'll try and contribute but can't right now. [http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/08/12/clarifying-ergodic-and-cybertext/ Noah Wardrip-Fruin's discussion of what cybertext and ergodic really mean would be a useful source in editing this, but of course it's Aarseth's book Cybertext that is the primary source, as this is where the term was coined and defined. Future developments and uses of the term should be discussed too, which requires more work. For now I've removed the most obviously false examples of ergodic literature and I've flagged the article as needing attention from an expert. Lijil 11:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
OK; I've fixed a lot - deleted the bits about how works with some non-linear chronology can be ergodic. I deleted the confusing list of examples and put in a list of texts Aarseth refers to as ergodic instead (from Noah's discussion of the book) and added both Cybertext itself and Noah's discussion to the list of references. Plenty left to do. --Lijil 13:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Questions
Does "The Sound and the Fury" by Faulkner qualify as Ergodic? It's read front-to-back, but then again so is Burroughs, and it requires considerable effort by the reader to keep track of where you are in time -- which often changes midparagraph -- and which characters are speaking. And then there's the name changes.
Just added the links to FF (which seemed appropriate from the definition) and the pieces of "Ergodic literature" I found from another article online. I'm still not quite clear on what Ergodic literature is? If were reading the copy of the Count of Monte Cristo here then would it count as Ergodic Literature, since I need to click on a hyperlink to move through the chapters? If someone reads something by Will Self and keeps needing to reach for a dictionary does this turn Will Self's book into Ergodic Literature? These examples might seem Pathological, but 253 exists both as an novel and as a proper book. One can read the physical book sequentially, no flicking back and forth from the descriptions of interelated passengers is necessary - but is quite irresistable. Is the physical book Ergodic? Is Ergodic Literature only intended to refer to HyperFiction?
A Sample Chapter from Cybertext: Perspectives on Ergodic Literature from which the term Ergodic seems to have come from. I would try and answer the questions I have asked by trying to read it, but it's late and it seems quite dense - but if anyone else wants to tighten up this article that might be a place to start. Number 0 03:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Hopefully some of these questions are answered by the slightly improved definition ont he article page - it still needs more work. Ergodic literature is a very specific term and you absolutely should read Aarseth's book to understand it. Lijil 07:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I Ching
What "critics of ergodic literature" consider the I Ching to be an example of the style? It wasn't constructed to be read as a text; unless someone can cite this claim it should be deleted.
- Espen Aarseth explicitly gives the I Ching as an example of ergodic literature. I'll add a page reference when I'm back at the office with the book. --Lijil 11:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] House of Leaves
Has anyone else read House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski? Its a pretty good example of ergodic literature, and well worth reading. And do the muds really count? It would seem to me they are no more this than any sort of video game... Sklarface 05:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- House of Leaves is a great book, and I suppose it counts as ergodic literature as much as Apollinaire's Calligrammes, which are also characterised by their unusual layout, requiring the reader to move his/her eyes in different ways than a conventional top to bottom, left to write text. I don't think we should simply add more and more examples, though - I think the list will get entirely out of hand (again) and that a better strategy is to work on clarifying the definition as given. MUDs are quite definitely an example of ergodic literature, and Aarseth devotes a whole chapter to them in the book that defines ergodic literature - ergodic literature is literature (written words) that require a non-trivial effort to traverse on the part of the reader. Print books with odd layouts are just one kind, and not the most common kind, either. Lijil 07:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clarification
Does "ergodic" require that the text be dependant on the reader? For instance, would the copious note-taking required to follow Dream of the Red Chamber or similarly populous novels count as a "non-trivial effort"? Again, would a comic with ambiguously placed panels that do not immediately suggest an order, but still have an intended order, require "non-trivial effort"? Rozencrantz 05:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Puzzles
What about puzzle books and those puzzles where you put together blocks of letters and the final result spells a quotation?
Mathematical proofs?
Riddles and such where you have to rot-13 or turn the page to check the answer?
- The same goes for various children's books, e.g., pop-up books, choose-your-own-adventures, and (especially!) things like Barbie Mix and Match Fashions Sectioned Flip Book. I can think of a handful of published cybertexts that use almost the same exact traversal mechanics.
- I think the larger issue here is ergodic text versus ergodic literature. To illustrate my point, is a TV commercial considered film? If I can relate to the guy on the TV screen with a headache, or empathize with the mom scrubbing soap scum off the shower tile, or feel for the characters in the Zoloft commercial, then why is it in a different category than a short film? In the hegemonic structure, the only way we justify the distinction, of course, is by placing requirements on the impetus or motive that precipitates the end result. Therefore, commercially motivated works don't count; works associated with mathmematics, science, and research do not count; entertainment doesn't count.
- The main problem with this method of classification is that it does not accomodate works with multiple, unclear, or missing motivations (e.g., video games, multi-authored works, computer-assisted works, found poetry) or works that bridge typically disparate audiences (e.g., "mash up"-type new media projects). Perhaps not coincidentally, it is these same works that comprise the present frontier of literature. AdamSap (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
