Talk:Equidae

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[edit] Somalian Wild Ass

Isn't Somalian Wild Ass (Equus somaliensis) a valid species?--Menah the Great 23:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

From what I know it is still a subspecies. But if someone has research that says otherwise, please comment on this. Pmaas 13:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zebra Revision

I've changed this article and added some new information. Groves & Bell revised the Zebra genus Equus, subgenus Hippotigris in their 2004 publication in Mammalian Biology. Cape Mountain Zebra and Hartmann's Mountain Zebra are now seen as two separate species (Equus zebra and Equus hartmannae), and not as subspecies anymore. See the Mountain Zebra article for more information and references. And they revised the Plain Zebra's (Equus quagga) subspecies. Pmaas 13:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wild Horse

The Wild Horse had some subspecies, although the total (valid for certain) number is unclear to me. I know only two certain valid subspecies at the moment, namely the Tarpan (Equus ferus ferus), and the Przewalksii Horse (Equus ferus przewalskii). They are not seen as separate species anymore. They can successfully interbreed and were once part of the historic range of the wild horse! See article for references! Pmaas 13:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The actual number is unclear to everyone. The Europeans, generally speaking, claim about 5 or 6 subspecies for the Horse, whereas most American biologists claim only three: Equus ferus ferus, the Tarpan; Equus ferus przewalskii, Przewalski's Horse; and Equus ferus caballus, all domestic forms. The domestic forms are where some Europeans disagree with the Americans. From what I've read, there's a bit of a common thought in Europe (and I think well-justified) that different types of domesticated horses may have sprung from seperate subspecies and been mixed back and forth over the years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aunukia (talk • contribs) 11:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I think the Zebra page is redudant, it covers some of the same information (although incomplete (species)), and together they would make a much better article. Objections? KimvdLinde 03:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I object, I don't want to have sift through horse information to find zebra.

Agreed. This article should remain separate. What sort of encyclopedia would we be if we didn't feature a page on the zebra? It's not like it's a particularly obscure animal. Michaelritchie200 11:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I object as well, because there is a very well established policy that each species gets its own page. I'm going to take down the merger tags for that reason.--M@rēino 22:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Equus scotti

Shouldn't Equus scotti be found somewhere on this article? Where should it be put? -- 63.226.38.196 15:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 16:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More...

  • Equus alaskae (syn. E. lambei)
  • Equus complicatus (syn. E. eous, E. major)
  • Equus conversidens (syn. E. barcenaei, Onager zoyatalis)
  • Equus crenidens
  • Equus cumminsii
  • Equus enormis
  • Equus excelsus (syn. Asinus aguascalentiensis, Onager arellanoi, Onager hibbardi)
  • Equus francisci (syn. E. achates, E. arrelanoi, E. calobatus, E. quinni)
  • Equus fraternus (syn. E. leidyi)
  • Equus fromanius
  • Equus giganteus
  • Equus holmesi
  • Equus hydruntinus
  • Equus idahoensis
  • Equus jubatus
  • Equus mexicanus (syn. Onager oviedoi, E. midlandensis)
  • Equus nalaikhaensis
  • Equus nearcticus
  • Equus niobrarensis (syn. E. hatcheri)
  • Equus occidentalis
  • Equus pacificus
  • Equus pectinatus
  • Equus pseudaltidens (syn. Onager altidens)
  • Equus tabeti
  • Equus yunnanensis
  • Plesippus (seems widely accepted as subgenus today and may be the correct subgenus for E. simplicidens = P. shoshonensis = Asinus pons)

I don't know whether these are still valid or not.

The "onagers" are probably all American stilt-legged asses. Dysmorodrepanis 00:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think sourcing to something written within the last 5-10 years would avoid edit spats, I am a great fan of footnotes. Montanabw(talk) 03:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, that's why I put the list here and not on the mainpage. Meaning that I got it fromPaleobiology Database (IIRC), which is not (yet) the most reliable source. Each of these horses needs to be validatedt before it is put on the mainpage. The taxonomic status of the Hagerman Horse (E. simplicidens = P. shoshonensis = Asinus pons = Equus (Plesippus) simplicidens?) needs clarification as it is already on several other pages. (As a side note, I am a fan of footnotes giving sources which are then listed, separately, in a nice clean section ordered alphabetically as per first author. Makes handling multiple refs to a single source, single refs to multiple sources, and checking refs for use and completeness so much easier, besides conforming to scientific standard... and the new Wikipedia user will break the code less easily compared to sections whose code is more footnotes than running text. ;-)) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I am no expert in taxonomy, so shall defer to those who are. I am OK with either the "ref name=" tag or your method for streamlining footnotes, though it is very important that if the bibliography method is used (which makes the most sense with books, but not for web pages, where ref name is the better option, IMHO) that the bibliography is carefully reviewed when footnotes are added to be sure the original entry was not removed by another editor.
I take no position on which of the extinct classifications are "real" or "correct," but do like to see best evidence from respected researchers on the topic (as opposed to people who sort of have their own theories). All I know is that some people are dedicated to infinite expansion of these lists to the point that every single fossil is going to be a different subspecies. (sigh) My personal tendency here is to say less is better. I also have concerns of things that are classed as two subgroups of a genetically identical species... I think the evidence is pretty spotty on Hagerman's Horse, but I also don't have the time/motivation/energy to be the one who looks into it.
So have fun. And I sympathize. I spend my time trying to keep the list of horse breeds confined to breeds and not breed subgroups, etc.; not letting the thing get cluttered up with red links, etc. There is also the question of when a horse like the Pzrewalski's horse is a species or a breed, particularly when there are tazonomy disputes. Oh lordy... Montanabw(talk) 19:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Probably "real" (with that I meant: a valid taxon, not a junior synonym): it was discussed in a 2006 article in Ameghiniana -
Montanabw, you really shouldn't be commenting on horse taxonomy or evolution when you yourself admit that you don't have the time or concern to study it. Your implication that Hagerman's Horse is just Equus ferus caballus (Equus caballus) in disquise, for that is almost certainly what you are implying, is not only just plain wrong, it is manipulatively misleading. And I find your comments about 'subgroups' a bit disturbing. It seems as though you believe that subspecies are invalid taxonomic classifications. This is just laughable. If you want to talk about domestic horse breeds go do that on the Horse page. And I can't beleive I have to say this, but you should be made aware that domestic Horse breeds are not of an equal taxonomic status to ancient Horse species. Also, there's really no valid argument against Przewalski's Horse belonging to the same specy as domesticated horses at this point, despite what some zoos might say (zoological gardens, in America at least, are notorious for being slightly behind the times when it comes to proper animal taxonomy). It's pretty well-known that Przewalski's Horse is not a seperate specy. And your use of the word 'breed' to describe Przewalski's Horse proves that you are not qualified to speak on the phylogeny or taxonomy of Equids. Aunukia (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Subgenus Amerhippus [- South American horses] - "todas presentan la misma morfología dentaria, un cráneo grande en relación a la estructura del cuerpo y un acortamiento y robustez característico de las extremidades." though it is not accepted by all authorities
    • Equus andium Branco
    • Equus insulatus Ameghino
    • Equus lasallei Daniel
    • Equus neogeus (Lund)
    • Equus santaeelenae (Spillmann)

These two references seem highly relevant:

  • Prado, J.L. y Alberdi, M.T. 1994. A quantitative review of the horses Equus from South America. Palaeontology 37: 459-481. [1]
  • Prado, J.L. y Alberdi, M.T. 1996. A cladistic analysis of the horses of the tribe Equini. Palaeontology 39: 663-680. [2]

They are (IIRC) online for free. I will go party now and when I'm back and still able to type I will check them out. Especially the latter might resolve nearly the entire list. But it has to be cite-tracked for any more recent revisions. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

No such luck. The papers use only a small sample and are concerned with little else but the validity of Equus (Amerhippus) (the first) and equid genera in general (the second).
But I found others:
But most importantly, Google Books has "Fossil Horses: Systematics, Paleobiology, and Evolution of the Family Equidae" of which p.99 has a wonderful phylo-tree that only needs minor updating to replace the wretched linear sequence on the Evolution page
When I updated the classification section I relied on some of my own knowledge of the subject (scant as it was), but I relied mainly on "Pleistocene Mammals of North America", by Björn Curtén and Elaine Anderson. It's from 1980, so it's a little old, but I'm not aware of anything so concise that's better. I also think we should be working to expand this article to include extinct non-Equus species in the family. Just because they're extinct doesn't mean they shouldn't be documented here. In fact, they most certainly SHOULD be documented in order to give a better understanding of the family as a whole. And before anyone suggests adding that to the Horse evolution page, forget it. Any addition of factual information is doomed to failure on the Horse Evolution page. They're too many people who think about the European Horse, in relation to the rest of the family, the same thing that most Humans think about themselves in relation to the other primates; namely, that the European, domesticated Horse is the end of Equine evolution. This is patently false, of course, but it doesn't really matter in the long run, because too many people think it and there aren't enough people opposing such ridiculous ideas.Aunukia (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oestrus

I'm wondering about some of the statements about oestrus ('estrus', in US spelling). I'm sure these are true of horses, but is it certain that they're also true of zebras? Some of them live near the equator, where the day length doesn't really change, and there is no 'winter', as such. Of course, they do have dry seasons on the savannah, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they synchronise breeding with those, instead. But possibly not by length of day? Anaxial (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point, and I don't know the answer. But, the original text was flat-out wrong to say equids were fertile only a few months of the year, so that was the problem I was fixing. If someone has info on zebras (wonder if Zebra article helps?) it would be good to note, if different. For that matter, the same question would apply to any equid living in equatorial regions, such as horses or donkeys living in Brazil. Montanabw(talk) 23:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horse-centric bias?

I note that the "see also" section has now been trimmed back (ok) to include only horse-based articles (not ok). Is this a problem with links, or a problem with the titles of the other articles? (for example, perhaps the Evolution of the horse should be Evolution of the Equid). This probably also ties in with the issue immediately above. FiveRings (talk) 20:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, while I cannot really disagree, it's a tricky one, because no one has bothered to do up any articles on reproduction in zebras or wild behavior of donkeys, etc... when those people care enough to add in appropriate material, I see no problem with increasing the balance. I haven't paid a lot of attention to how or if the evolution article explains how the modern species of zebra, ass and horse split off, though such a section is probably a good idea if someone has the expertise to add it. That said, the vast bulk of research is on horses, so while there is a lot of weight to horse stuff, that is where the source material is, too. I don't really have a solution, other than to encourage those who care to develop appropriate material with appropriate sources. May be title issues, though hard to say without a review of all the articles. I know that equine nutrition covers all domestic equids in various sections, though weighted toward horses (partly because donkeys are less fussy about feed). Montanabw(talk) 23:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and on the "trimmed back" issue, what was trimmed was the list of all the species that were already listed in the section above. What remains are related articles other than those about various subspecies...and while we are at it, an argument COULD be made (I'm not making it) that the subspecies section is ass and zebra-centric in its bias because there are more ass and zebra links (I mean that makes about as much sense.) Just food for thought. Montanabw(talk) 23:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In terms of reproduction, I did confirm from my sources that zebras (and asses) have the same gestation period as horses, have a foal every other year, and so on, so that much stands... I just don't know about the oestrus. I do certainly agree that this article, since its about equids in general, should strive to be general, where possible - the horse article can cope with the specifics of that species. As for Evolution of the horse, I suspect that most people who'd want to look it up would search by that title, or something like it, so that's not unreasonable. Have Evolution of the equids as a redirect, by all means, of course. It's 95% the same anyway, since the various species only branched apart in the relatively recent past, after all that interesting stuff with hooves had already happened. Anaxial (talk) 00:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
If you want to use the ref tags to add a bit about the every other year cycle in zebras, go for it, but DO add the footnote. (I have noticed that "my sources" need specific cites and once they do, the edit wars usually stop). As for the links to horse behavior and horse anatomy, people may be interested in more info on anatomy and herd psychology, that's why they are there, but it's not a huge deal either way. There is wisdom to perhaps redirecting or renaming them as "equine anatomy" and, maybe "equine behavior" (except that I really haven't the time to research and properly source material on wild burros or zebras, to the extent that their behavior differs). Maybe I can do a few redirects, and I will check with the editors of the anatomy article to see if anyone cares if I move it to Equine anatomy, as there aren't a lot of fundamental differences there, as far as I know... Montanabw(talk) 17:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Just created a redirect named "Equine evolution" and another named "Donkey evolution." I really doubt anyone will search for "Equid evolution" or "Equidae evolution", as you have to know a bit about taxonomy to even think of that term first, but I have no objection to the creation of any logical redirects to help people find what they are looking for. It most certainly isn't a moral issue! (grin) Montanabw(talk) 17:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The cite for 'every other year' is already there. Anaxial (talk) 17:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Tweaked it, as it isn't accurate for some wild horse herds. Interesting. Montanabw(talk) 18:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major tweaking?

Because this page is not what the title says. It is about the genus, not the family, not even the tribe Equini. The information is strewn about here and in the evolution article and it's not really good from a systematic standpoint (if this is about Equidae, where is the redlink to Kalobatippus waiting to be done? ;-) (Is Kalobatippus still valid? Since when is it an equine?) ). In a nutshell, there is no serious taxonomic page on the entire equids before true horses. Equids are probably the only really well-known animals on Wikipedia for which no serious phylogenetic info exists at all. Not even a flimsy cladogram - which I'd advise against as it would probably be even more misleading in equids than in any other major group. The chokepoint Merychippus blasts every attempt at a clean dichotomous tree to bits, and such trees are what today's software is designed to calculate.

If this is Equidae, the first genus in the list (basal) should be Hyracotherium. For Equinae (grazing equids), Merychippus. For Equini (horses and relatives) the basal polytomy, that is Protohippus, Pliohippus, Astrohippus and whatnot, versus the Equus proper lineage and its subgenera. For these, see above. The crucial point is that what we consider "horses (+zebras, donkeys...)" is essentially the Equini (of which only a single genus survives). Plains-living grazers who stand on 4 toenails, one per leg. Most of the Equinae, let alone the Equidae, was more like a large duiker than a horse. Megahippus must have been a totally zonked out critter. (This is also very interesting)

I suggest everyone interested in horses read Bruce MacFadden's opus magnus, or at least look at pp 99-100. It is (perhaps) in dire need of updating in some crucial points but from the general style of writing MacFadden seems to be pretty careful not to claim what was really unresolved 15 years ago. he might make some honest mistakes though; I know next to nothing about horse evolution, but what I do know seems pretty much in line with this book. It might be used as a general reference for Equidae and Equinae (Equini and Hipparionini might not yet be necessary, at least not the latter). These are is then easily improved by more current sources, which can e.g. simply be found by cite-tracking on Google Scholar.

Equini might really be about Hipparionini and the Merychippus radiation, whereas the Equini would well deserve their own article for the reasons above - it contains everything that ever lived that we today would have readily recognized as horses, if we knew that donkeys and zebras were basically sorts of horses too .

Does anyone know a reliable and current (post-2005?) online source on which the species/subgenera of Equus can be completed?

An easy-to-build structure would be to list the contained (genera mostly, and subgenera in Equini) and write a brief intro: age, range, notable features. Discuss subgroups in short sections, link to proper articles (if available, e.g. Zebra). For the higher-rank articles, a paragraph noting peculiar or evolutionarily important genera (/species?) is probably all that is needed as of now.

This way, there would be the basic structure in a nice and concise way for the entire Equidae, the zebralessness of this page would be eliminated, and the Evolution page could be expanded with the new information to tie it all together nicely. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 04:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, so page 112 in MacFadden one should probably forget about. E. caballus and the quagga s.str. closer to each other than to any other Holocene equid? Hardly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dysmorodrepanis (talk • contribs) 04:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
You lost me somewhere in there. Basically, I don't know what other articles on canine, feline, bovine, etc. cover, but the way I see this one is that we start with the modern members of the equidae family, explain all the branches of the family tree that exist in modern times, and to the extent that evolution of the horse doesn't dovetail into this article properly, build some text and links so that the two work together, whether it is text here or there. All I can say is if you know this taxonomy stuff better than I do (and I believe you do), go ahead and tweak, but stick to what can be verified with footnotes; the evolution page has had some rather fierce edit wars in the past, and I also don't think this page needs to repeat the evolution article. One problem I do see is the question of whether, say, the variety of equus caballus that became extinct in North America was a wholly different subspecies from the branch domesticated in Eurasia, and so on. (You may also want to skim domestication of the horse too, big rewrite happened there within the last month or so.) Anyway, I guess my thinking is to proceed with care but proceed... Montanabw(talk) 22:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Articles on Felidae, Bovidae, and so on deal primarily with the living members of the family, so it seems to me that Equidae is in line with all of those, and follows standard Wikipedia practice. In some of those cases, there is also a discussion of fossil forms and general evolution of the group - but here we also have Evolution of the horse, so it's less needed. So I'd certainly be careful not to duplicate anything - that's why the Evolution section here is so short - and to consider which page information on fossil species would best belong on. There may be a place for some this information here, but as Montanabw says, I'd proceed with caution. Anaxial (talk) 22:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, Montanabw, there is no such thing as Equus caballus. That is a domesticated animal. The proper name is Equus ferus caballus - unless domesticated Horses somehow come from Zebras or Asses... Also, there is no consensus that Equus ferus ever set foot on the North American continent (before the advent of Europeans), though I personally believe Equus lambei may be a subspecy of Equus ferus. Thirdly, and most importantly, and I hope EVERYONE is listening here when I say this, Equus ferus caballus, the domesticated Horse IS NO MORE native to the North American west than Chihuahuas are to the Canadian tundra. Domestic forms are native NOWHERE. Period. The domestic Horse is RADICALLY different from it's wild ancestor. And Dysmorodrepanis, the reason all the Equine articles are so Horse-centric is because a very large number of vociferous (and outright foolish) people are unhealthily obsessed with horses. Unfortunately, many of these people also think themselves expert enough to declare a domestic animal native to a continent it never inhabited simply because they like to watch them run. Seriously, that's all it is. They like looking at them. It's certainly not an environmental issue. Horses are wildly destructive to their surroundings. They eat more than cattle! And an obscene amount more than the native Pronghorn (which, by the way doesn't trample its food to death like the Mustangs do with they're enormous, heavy-stepping hooves). The only argument the Mustang and Burro worshippers have to use (and they milk it good, let me tell ya) is the similarity of Equus lambei to Equus ferus. But, Equus lambei has not been proven to be synonymous with Equus ferus (though it is a possibility), and even if it were it would be more closely related, by far, to Przewalski's Horse than to Mustangs! E. lambei was tiny! It was like four feet tall at the shoulders! And all the other North American Equids are pretty well-known to not be synonymous with Equus ferus (including E. caballus). Not by a long shot. This is why the Horse Evolution page (and every other page dealing with equines) has been changed back and forth so many times. The people who know what the heck they're talking about try to add useful information and correct blatant lies or grievous mistakes and the people who like pretty ponies go back and try to convince the world that Spanish horses have roamed every continent including Antarctica, Mars and the Sun since before Dinosaurs walked on two feet. I made the ridiculous mistake of trying to add factual information to the Mustang article and, if I remember correctly, it was changed WITHIN THE HOUR. The person doing the changing even removed the scientific names I inserted! The Mustang article has absolutely no indication of what specy the Mustang belongs to now! I swear this endless struggle between the My Little Ponyites and REAL BIOLOGISTS is like the Evolution vs. creationism argument, only dumber. Like I said, these people aren't calling for us to turn our rotweillers loose into the nearest forest, but why not? I mean, it's the same specy as the Gray Wolf. Domestication doesn't matter, if you listen to these people. If that's the case then why aren't we restocking mature Oak forests with farm raised white turkeys? I mean, it's the same specy, after all. Oh. And this is my favourite. Where Wild Asses are actually native they're critically endangered. But I have not read ONE WORD from the Cult of the Mustang and Burro about saving them from ACTUAL extinction, but get this, they want to have the Mustangs and Burros in America declared endangered species. How's that for mentally inept and savagely hypocritical? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aunukia (talk • contribs) 12:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I don't know how to do it, but I think this article could use a pronunciation at the beginning, see as the -ae suffix is not one commonly encountered in modern life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.20.28 (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)