Template talk:Episode list/archive 1

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Archive
Archives
  1. May 06 - early August 06
  2. August 06 - early December 07

Contents

Initial Template Discussions

This is a direct copy of Template:Digimon episode. I hope to have this turned into a generalized template for ALL episodes. Likely this will include a HUGE list of variables in the template which will account for any specifics for episode lists. Anyway, I hope to make a few adjustments to this template sometime soon so we can begin using it for any episode list. Contributions are welcome and encouraged. --Will2k 03:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Depending on how many variables and if we can group some together it might be easier to make a few templates. No real example comes to mind currently, but I can image that those variables could get rather complex.. -- Ned Scott 07:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking about just making some optional fields like just "Variable1", "Variable2", "Variable3" which can be used for whatever is appropriate for the episode (eg. Stardates, Japanese title, etc.). The syntax of the template looks complicated to me so I'm not entirely sure how to add this on. By the way, thanks for joining the project. I'm trying to put some wheels under this thing again and would gladly welcome some help. --Will2k 05:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Test entry

Here's some ideas I've thrown together, the parameters are:

{{Television Episode
 |Image=
 |Title=
 |AltTitle= (optional)
 |Aux1= generic column 1 (optional)
 |Aux2= generic column 2 (optional)
 |OriginalAirDate=
 |AltDate= next significant air date, such as the first English air date of an anime (optional)
 |ProdCode= (optional)
 |EpisodeNumber=
 |ShortSummary= (optional)
 |LineColor= when none is specified it defaults to #CCCCFF
}}

Example:

# Screenshot Title Original airdate Production code
01 "Cartman Gets an Anal Probe"  August 13, 1997 101
Space aliens implant a transmitter in Cartman and abduct Kyle's brother. 
02 "Weight Gain 4000"  August 20, 1997 102
Cartman tries to bulk up using "Weight Gain 4000". Mr. Garrison attempts to assassinate Kathie Lee Gifford. 

Works great so far. Also note that I fixed some of the extra space found in the originals (List of South Park episodes#Season 1: 1997-1998) o.O -- Ned Scott 07:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Generic variables

Here's an initial list of items I think can be applied to all episode lists:

  • # (as in chronologically - which number is it)
  • Directed by
  • Episode Number (as in according to the show's convention - which number is it)
  • Original airdate
  • Screenshot
  • Summary
  • Title (or name?)
  • Written by

Am I missing any?--Will2k 05:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I kinda like the list as proposed above. I think that adding more info to it is just gonna clutter it up (esp. directed/written by). For most lists this info isn't really important. You might as well look it up in another directory (which probably will provide more relevant information), by using the info of the list. Or in case the show has TV episode articles, in the article itself. I'm still pondering about the airdate issues. I mean we can't go adding airdates for all english speaking coutries of course. Personally i think definetly "original airdate" (in coutry of original broadcast) should be there. However how to go from there, i'm not really sure. Aditionally I'm thinking we might link to tv.com entries for eps or something simpler. I'm just a little afraid because I don't want ppl getting into an argument over "which review site is better/should be used". - The DJ 19:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The second airdate would only be listed once, for example, only the first time the episode aired in English, not every time it aired in an English speaking country. -- Ned Scott 19:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking at this template, i just realise that even though a summery is optional, an image is not. I propose the following layout, which would allow this, in it's most expanded and shortest mode. - The DJ 21:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

# Screenshot English title (top)
Japanese title (bottom)		 Aux1 Aux2 Original
Air Date		 English
Air Date		 P#
1 Image:Wikipedia-screenshot.png "the title of this episode"
"title2"		 aux1 aux2 date1 date2 prod#
blablablabla
# Title Original Air Date
1 "The title of this episode" date1


The only problem with this, and with all optional feilds, is that if one entry displays an image, and the second does not, the table will look like this:

# Screenshot English title (top)
Japanese title (bottom)		 Original
Air Date
1 Image:Wikipedia-screenshot.png "the title of this episode"
"title2"		 date1
blablablabla
2 "The title of this episode" date1

This is also my current dilemma for the "Aux" and "AltDate" fields as well. I've been reading the Help:Advanced templates help pages to see what options there are. But yeah, if I can figure something out then image will also be an optional field. -- Ned Scott 22:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

hmmm, good point :D. The easiest for Image is to simply add UseImage, i have seen that in several other templates. However for Aux, etc it becomes more difficult of course. - The DJ 23:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Can we just make a default image for unspecified screenshots: for example . I don't think it should be the concern of this template if a field is different from the other ones in the same list. It should be up to the one building the list to ensure that all the right fields are filled in with a ? or some other kind of filler until all the right data is entered (ala Comparison of web browsers). Maybe we can build a corresponding template which says something to the effect of "Some fields in this list are incomplete. You can help complete the list by filling in the missing data."--Will2k 22:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
mm, i don't like the picture idea much either. I propose a {{#equals|{{{Image}}}|empty}} (or whatever it's called) in which case you would insert the "tabular" markup, in case {{{Image}}} truly is empty, then we remove the column. Same procedure can be used for the other optional rows.
a third idea is to introduce a "layout" paramater which we can #switch in order to provide the right layout (simple|complex) and a columns option to provide extra columns (1 ==extra date, 2 == aux1, 4 == aux2) values can be added up to provide multiple extra columns. so 7 gives you all three additional columns. - The DJ 14:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking forget the simple vs. complex. It should be assumed that, as a wiki, we put the complex version in for all episode lists and they will eventually get filled. The template could use a default ? for all unspecified values.--Will2k 22:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I really feel that images should be optional. I mean lets be serious, we are talking about 6000 TV shows and counting. Who's gonna make screenshots of all that stuff ? Hell some tv episodes don't even EXIST anymore physically. I feel stronger about this then about an optional "ShortSummary" field. - The DJ 22:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. How about this: no image parameter==image column gone&&episode number=1 row, blank image parameter==exactly two rows for a default image && episode number=2 rows, image parameter provided==exactly two rows for the specified image && episode number=2 rows. Also, I do not believe Short summary should be optional. If the episode actually exists, someone should be able to provide a summary for the episode.--Will2k 04:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes i think this is a proper construct. Do you know how to do that? It goes just a tad beyond my Advanced Template knowledge. - TheDJ (talk • contribs) 18:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I found how to do it {{#if:{{{image}}}|{{{image|noimageparam}}}|emptyimageparam}} - TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 13:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I think our best bet is not to make a single template, but rather lets look at why we have the template. The template's most useful not necessarily for existing lists as much as it is for helping build new lists. Being able to lable the fields instead of having the user guess or count the row spaces, or perhaps not understanding what one column represents. I think we could make a couple of basic templates with variables and such, and then allow other users to request assistance in any further customization (basically, making the template for them if they don't know how to do it, or providing a guideline for others to make a similar "easy data entry" template. Template substitution (although I don't think we'd need to subst our these templates) brings up some good reasons not to have a unified template for a large number of articles, such as them being targets for vandalism. In any case, the goal is to make it easier, and maybe for us as well. I don't think a mass of templates should be made, rather when a "custom" situation comes up we could easily also adapt that template with similar custom requests. Also, I notice that a lot of these pages also include DVD and video release lists, we could also provide templates for these as well. -- Ned Scott 19:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Am I correct in concluding that my "optional image column"-system allowing for optional images while still being able to retain the column in case a single entry in a list does not have an image See this is no longer in place ?
If you have a list with images, and one episode does not have an image, it will have a blank cell-space for the image, and things will still line up correctly. -- Ned Scott 06:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
But it is no longer possible to completly remove the column, as with my change I think. You can see it in action here: User:TheDJ/Sandbox - TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 07:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct, but I have been playing with an alternative template that uses all the same variables and pretty much works the same, but has no image column and the episode number is on the left hand side. Template:No image episode list. Since it uses the same variables, one can easily switch between the two without having to re-write all the information, just the name of the template. -- Ned Scott 07:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The idea being that one would use the Episode list template to encourage eventual screenshots, and the No image episode list template for lists that want to display just the text info. -- Ned Scott 07:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I think TheDJ's was right on the episode number row span thing.
# Title Original airdate Production code
01 "Blah Title"  August 01, 2013 101
This is a short summary. 
Shouldn't the episode number span to the begining of the short summary row? His TheDJ/Sandbox does exactly that... also I'm working on The Colbert Report LOE and quite frankly it's close to impossible to screencap every episode. --Samic 05:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Can we get a couple more auxiliary fields added? Or better yet, can we get "writer" and "director" added as standard (but possibly optional) fields, leaving "Aux" for truly auxiliary, series-specific information? I'm thinking of "mytharc" episodes for The X-Files, character flashbacks for Lost, or celebrity cameos for The Simpsons -- Soren.harward 15:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Towards a working version

I have done some editing and cleaned things up a bit. I have managed to get the entire first season of South Park working with this template. It can be found in my sandbox here. I can't figure out why the South Park table doesn't have all the lines there. Anyone? --Will2k 01:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I got it working completely now. Check my Sandbox. - TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 14:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Works for me. I'm comfortable making this live. --Will2k 18:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh and we should update the example at the top as well--Will2k 18:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

template name change

I know we still have some lose ends to tie up on the template and such, but I was thinking that maybe we should change the name of the template to Template:Episode list or something like that. -- Ned Scott 21:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

sounds fair to me.--Will2k 15:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

episode number

I moved the episode number to be listed at the other end of the listing, as it's done in some of the featured lists. I think I can add a thing to make it so one can select either side, but I figured this should be the default. -- Ned Scott 13:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to the left because I liked it better there. It feels more like an ordered list. I am not passionate about this though--Will2k 18:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
In addition to making which side the episode number will be on optional, I'm also playing around with a second template with no image and optional airdate, so only episode number and title are required. This template would have the episode fixed at the left. The idea being that this could be an alternative template (like a starter template, or just for use with very little info episode lists), with all the variables the same so if one wants to "upgrade" to this template they could do so by just replacing the top part of the template text. -- Ned Scott 01:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Now that I think about it, even though I haven't seen it done this way, it would probably make more sence to have the number on the left and the image then put on the right... hmm, just a thought. -- Ned Scott 13:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think image on the right would look right.--Will2k 14:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Colour

I don't believe english colour codes are working (eg. white instead of FFFFFF). Can someone confirm or deny?--Will2k 18:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

For some reason putting # in one of the template's if statements causes it to freak out, so I made it so the # is outside of the problem area. But the side effect is when it tries "white" it does "#white", so it works with hex but not english. I'll see if there's a way around this, there probably is and I'm just not seeing it. -- Ned Scott 23:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Can't we just test for the existance of #. If it's there, assume hex, else English.--Will2k 04:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
That's what I'm having problems with. Putting # inside any of those #if functions seems to break it, etc. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Row Colors

It would be nice if we could also set the primary and secondary row colors so we don't have to be stuck with drab grey. If there already is an easy way to do this feel free to smack me upside the head and point me in the right direction. --Argash 06:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the "inspiration" for this was from lists such as The Simpsons (season 2), and it was intended to make color choice an option, but I must have gotten side tracked.. I'll throw something together as a test in a bit, since right now my mind is mush and can't seem to think of whatever it was I was supposed to do just now... or .. something.. But yeah, it's a good idea and hopefully whatever optional parameter it will become won't be too confusing or whatever. -- Ned Scott 06:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

ImageSize

I noticed that List of Stargate SG-1 episodes used a format of 150px for their images, so I made an ImageSize parameter. Still defaults to 125px when none is defined. -- Ned Scott 09:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't work very well at all

Although a good idea in itself, I find this template unnecessary. The table markup was actually simpler and easier to read! By trying to standardise, you've introduced a hundred variables to account for the fact that episode lists aren't standardised. You should start a discussion for a Wikipedia policy on standards for episode lists, and then cut down the variables. Alternatively, this template can be used on some episode lists but not all.

However, even on the pages it is being used, it is quite a nightmare. It seems to introduce empty rows and ugly lines, disrupts the column headers, breaks apart the whole style of the article. This kind of template-ification is just not needed and is actually a step in a worse direction. The table markup was clean, simple and short.

With List of Stargate SG-1 episodes in mind, I would not like to use this template. Furthermore, I think that WikiProject Television really needs to look into making this template work better, or otherwise scrapping it and just generating a non-template-ified policy for episode list standards. -- Alfakim --  talk  14:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be confused. Also, what web browser are you using? This template was made by WikiProject Television's Daughter project, WikiProject List of Television Episodes. Our WikiProject already is the discussions about standardizing episode lists. List of South Park episodes was one of the lists to follow the project's suggestions. Aside from the division line, the template applied to the Stargate list was identical to it's previous version. No other articles are having any problems with this template. Could you take a screen shot for us of how it looks on your computer? Although, I don't see how it could be any different on your computer, since it should be generating almost the same HTML code when the article renders.
The template's own complexity was put in place since so it would be compatible with in-progress lists. I'm not sure what your understanding is of Wikipedia's templates, but it's actually fairly simple compared to many other infoboxes, character boxes, and other templates used on Wikipedia. And how complex the template is doesn't really matter, all that code is not injected into the article, rather, when you visit a page on wikipedia, the templates then render the parameters that are used, and the same HTML code is generated.
Like I said before, the best part of the template is helping with new and in-progress lists. It has been well received at over 20 articles via it's "Japanese" version at Template:Japanese episode list (see Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Japanese episode list). Within days of the template being applied, it has encouraged editors to upload tons of screen caps and write episode summaries.
The template looks fine, works great, but I understand if you don't wish to use it for a list that's already generated or doesn't plan on making any changes. But I don't understand your experience with it. Breaks table headers? Introduces empty rows? I really want to know more about this. -- Ned Scott 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Any issues with the template or formatting style of any episode list including Stargate SG-1 need to be taken up here. . Be sure to check out the Wikiproject to ensure your questions haven't been covered already.
Also, the claim that
|-
|rowspan="2"| [[Image:Children of the Gods 1.jpg|150px]] || '''[[Children of the Gods (Stargate SG-1)|Children of the Gods (Part 1)]]''' || [[July 27]], [[1997]] || 101A 
|-
|colspan="6"| The Stargate programme is brought back into action when the alien [[Apophis (Stargate)|Apophis]] attacks Earth through the gate. He is of the same race as the dead [[Ra (Stargate)|Ra]]. [[Jack O'Neill]], with new recruit [[Samantha Carter]], are sent to locate [[Daniel Jackson]].

is easier to read than

{{Episode list
 |Image=Children of the Gods 1.jpg
 |Title=[[Children of the Gods (Stargate SG-1)|Children of the Gods (Part 1)]]
 |OriginalAirDate=[[July 27]], [[1997]]
 |ProdCode=101A 
 |EpisodeNumber=1
 |ShortSummary=The Stargate programme is brought back into action when the alien [[Apophis (Stargate)|Apophis]] attacks Earth through the gate. He is of the same race as the dead [[Ra (Stargate)|Ra]]. [[Jack O'Neill]], with new recruit [[Samantha Carter]], are sent to locate [[Daniel Jackson]].
}}

is utter nonsense to me. Any problems with header widths are usually the fault of an improperly formatted table header. If it looks funny to you, as suggested, post a screenshot and point out the issues. The template is purposely flexible enough to account for nearly any issues. --Will2k 20:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

While I agree the objections to the template are.. well, silly, our WikiProject isn't to enforce how people generate the table. Rather, the template is just a tool. -- Ned Scott 05:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Well said. It should be used for new lists, not arbitrarily applied to ones that are already perfectly ok. I am a bit of a self-proclaimed master of templates as it happens. I didn't mean this one was complicated relatively, nevertheless the code isn't readable straight off. I was aware of all your points above. I'll condense my own too. When this template was used, column-widths changed unexpectedly, and column headers misaligned and broke. I am using IE7 so that may be the reason.-- Alfakim --  talk  03:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like more of an issue of the table headers not being formatted correctly, and / or the fact that some of the parameters are optional and change the number of columns in reach row depending on if the parameter is defined or not. I've been trying to find ways to better handle the whole optional parameter / column thing, so hopefully something will work out better for this in the near future. -- Ned Scott 03:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Image

For template calls without an image, the template should default to this image: Image:No_Screenshot.svg. Nothing else is neutral enough for fair use, without being obtrusive. Having a default image helps to keep cells the right size, and stops the table from looking plain shoddy and incomplete. -- Alfakim --  talk  14:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing else is neutral enough for fair use? What? Also, the table header can be used to keep the cells the right size.. Having a default image is no problem, we experimented with it before. But I don't think it's necessary. The template is attempting to be flexible, if one wishes to use that image as "default" then they can simply use that image when the parameter calls for an image. -- Ned Scott 15:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Kk. I'm just going for consistency here. It would be a little nasty to have multiple "no screenshot" images all around wikipedia. Please mention this image at your wikiproject to be used as a standard one for empty cells (if at all). what i meant about fair use was that some lists are in the habit of using a title picture to fill space, which isnt fair use. -- Alfakim --  talk  03:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Template usage feedback

I used the template to make the List of Dirty Jobs episodes and found a few issues with the template:

  • The WikiTable example in the Using the template doesn't work for the no image template.
  • ProdCode doesn't appear to be "optional" as if the ProdCode isn't known, EpisodeNumber is used in the Production Code column.

On an unrelated note, might I suggest using a fake episode instead of a Southpark episode for the Example? While I'm sure it's a funny episode, the episode title might distract from your goal of widescale usage. -- Gogo Dodo 09:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Updated the talk page to more clearly show how you need to adapt the wikitable header. - TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 11:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Doh! I just remembered that I meant to make it so that EpisodeNumber is optional if ProdCode is used, and vise versa. -- Ned Scott 03:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing the WikiTable example. Having an example of the WikiTable header for use with the no image template would be a good idea, too. If you have one, I'll probably flip the List of Dirty Jobs episodes over to the no image template. I can't do screen shots and screen shots wouldn't quite do Dirty Jobs justice. -- Gogo Dodo 05:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Line Color not working in IE

While this template was being used for List of Xiaolin Showdown episodes, we figured out that the LineColor parameter does not yield any effects in Internet Explorer. Is there any way to ameliorate this? Ryulong 00:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's an error in how IE renders HTML tables all together. I recall hearing that the line separator didn't render a while back, but I would have thought MS would have fixed such an issue by now.. I'm a Mac user and MS stopped updating IE for Mac, so I don't have any real way to test things right now, but I'll see what I can find out. -- Ned Scott 01:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Empty Cells

This doens't seem to work with empty cells. I'm trying to make a page for Third Watch here but I don't want to have to fill in every single entry at one time. How do I fix this? Is seems like this is worse than a simple table with rowspan ="2" and colspan="5" although I agree the || || || || isn't as nice. For example

Image Title Credited Writers Director Original Airdate #

If that's the only way to have empty cells then we should switch. I must be missing something. - Peregrinefisher 04:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For the short term the only thing I could think up of was to just put something in there to trigger the cell, like a blank space via  . The optional cell thing has been bothering me, and there should be a better way to handle it, but I'm not really sure how yet. I'll post on some talk pages, maybe leave a message at the village pump, and see if anyone has any good suggestions. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)