Talk:Epiphany (holiday)
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Why is there an illustration of Theophany and not Epiphany on this page?Guille 03:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
An event in this article is a January 6 selected anniversary
From the 25th of December to the 6th of January is THIRTEEN days, not twelve. The twelfth day of Christmas is the 5th of January.
- Not sure, but I think that counting may have had December 25 as the 0th day of Christmas, the 26th as the first day, etc. Liturgical day counting can be strange some times; East and West have different ways of coming up with 40 days of Lent, for instance, by counting weekends slightly differently or some such. Wesley 17:44, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
"Epiphany was traditionally a Christian feast..." may need to be NPOV-ified, since it is still practiced in Orthodox Christianity (hence not past-tense).
Epiphany still is a Christian feast. The twelfth day of Christmas is 5 January, and its evening is Twelfth Night: Epiphany is not in Christmastide, but the start of a new season. The Revised Common Lectionary says that if Epiphany is celebrated on a Sunday it should be celebrated on the Second Sunday after Christmas: that is the Sunday before Epiphany, not after it. What is the evidence to support the observance of Epiphany Sunday after Epiphany? Gareth Hughes 14:00, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Does anyone fancy working on WikiProject Christian liturgical year? Gareth Hughes 10:55, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The article currently states:
"Thus in the Latin church, the feast of Christmas was established before that of Epiphany. Over time the western churches decided to celebrate Christmas on December 25. The eastern churches continued to treat January 6 as the day marking Jesus's birth. This has given rise in the west to the notion of a twelve-day festival, starting on December 25, and ending on January 6, called the twelve days of Christmas, although some Christian cultures — especially those of Latin America — extend it to forty days, ending on Candlemas, or February 2 (known as Candelaria in Spanish)."
The difference between January 6 and December 25 is not a liturgical distinction, but one of calendar. When the Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar by the civil authorities in predominantly Orthodox countries, in many places the Orthodox church kept the Julian in effect for liturgical observances, creating a situation where two calendars are in effect. Right now, there are 13 days of difference between the two, placing Old Calendar Christmas right on top of New Calendar Epiphany.
The feast of Epiphany, however, has always been separate from the feast of Christmas, not only in substance but in date. The Annunciation has been celebrated on March 25 for over a millenium, which places Christmas squarely on December 25 regardless of what calendar is used to observe the feast.
- The article is correct. The division between East and West over the Feats of the Nativity occurred in the third century. It seems that various churches began to suplant pagan winter solstice festivities with a celebration of the incarnation of Jesus. In Egypt and Syria, 6 January in the Julian calendar was considered to be the traditional date of the solstice. In Rome, 25 December was the traditional date of the solstice. Finally, there was compromise and both dates were accepted. However, the shift of the Roman Empire eastwards led to 25 December becoming the main feast of the two. As you have already pointed out, the issue is complicated by the Gregorian and Revised Julian calendars being now 13 days out of step with the Julian calendar. This gives us:
- 25 December — Gregorian and Revised Julian Christmas.
- 6 January — Gregorian and Revised Julian Epiphany.
- 7 January — Julian Christmas.
- 19 January — Julian Epiphany and Armenian Christmas.
Note the Armenian Apostolic Church has always considered Christmas to be on the 6 January Julian, and has never adopted 25 December. --Gareth Hughes 20:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Rewrite for clarity
Quote: Prior to 1970, the Roman Catholic Church (and prior to 1976, the Anglican churches) reckoned Epiphany as an eight-day feast, beginning on January 6 and continuing through the Octave of Epiphany, or January 13. Many traditionalist Catholics continue to use this calendar, and celebrate the feast of the Holy Family on the Sunday within the octave. More recently, most Roman Catholics in the United States mark Epiphany on the Sunday after the first Saturday in January (before this the Sunday between January 1 and January 6, in years when there was one, was designated the Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus), and most Catholics and Anglicans (along with many other Protestants) now formally end the Christmas season on the Sunday immediately following January 6, or, for American Catholics, the ensuing Monday in years when the Epiphany falls on January 7 or January 8. In either case, the feast of the Baptism of the Lord is observed on the latter day, after which the first installment of Ordinary Time begins. (But note that some Churches, such as the Anglican Catholic Church, and some groups of Roman Catholics, still use the pre-1970 calendar; for these bodies, Christmas still has twelve days and ends on January 5, and Epiphany is still celebrated on January 6 with an 8-day octave.)
Are you DELIBERATELY trying to be obtuse?
There must be a better way to organize this information...
- 128.107.253.41 03:06, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I am adding back in the link to the traditional Catholic customs of Epiphany and Twelfhnight because I think they are complete guides to how the Feast and its eve are celebrated by traditional Catholics and that the information is useful to them and to others who are interested in present and historical Catholic customs. Malachias111 15:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I guess what I don't understand is that there's a link to a generic Christian resource center, a link to "the Epiphany customs in Greece"--but there's nothing about how the Feast and its Eve are celebrated by Catholics (the biggest "denomination" in the Christian world) except for very basic stuff in the Christian resource center page. The Fisheater pages are much more complete and have readings, rites, customs, folklore, recipes, etc. (Actually, this can be said about all of the "Feast" pages--Advent, Lent, Christmas, Easter, Brigid of Ireland, Candlemas, Martha, Mary Magdalen, John the Baptist, etc. The Fisheaters pages are just so complete...)Malachias111 01:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
The article on the Epiphany is not very clear and needs some inprovement. You can hardly understand it and what it means please when you edit this please get your information from the correct sources.
[edit] Name
Might it not make more sense to have the disambiguation in parentheses be (feast) or (holiday)? Those strike me as much more natural and intuitive. --Gwern (contribs) 22:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. The article states that tradition says that the wise men were called Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar. True, yes, but that is what you might call church tradition, not Biblical tradition. The Bible says that there were three gifts, but not three wise men. The Bible is silent on how many wise men there were. There may have been three, but there may have been four, or eight or ten. What the original Greek says in Matthew 2 in the New Testament is Magi. Could there have been wise women and men?? I don't know. Just speculating there. L. Thomas W. 11/28/06
[edit] Pictures
would you be interested in this pic? the divers are shown, the Cross is kissed by the one who found it, it's winter and there are many people and also there is an island Church in the background. Mykonos, Greece. i like the pic with the Cross in the air too. could we fit that pic somewhere too? a thumbnail maybe? good or bad? 
CuteHappyBrute (talk) 05:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
