Talk:Epic of Gilgamesh

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[edit] ...what?

Were the ancients really incredibly bad writers, or am I just reading this wrong? Enkidu is sent as an enemy of Gilgamesh, they have a "mighty battle", and suddenly Gilgamesh is all "HEY DUDE LET'S GO ON A QUEST TOGETHER WE'LL BE BEST FRIENDS FOREVER". What the hell? Gaiacarra 17:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] time-frame Troubles

For the entire history of the Epic, there is: Old Babylonian, Middle Assyrian, and Neo-Assyrian; to pick a 'number', we are dealing with about 1000 to 1500+ (plus) years of a Re-worked, and re-read Epic. The various "tablet notes", (footnotes etc), have the sparse variations in Syllables, phrases, and even additions/ deletions of lines(paragraphs). I still think the "Meteorite" stanzas of Chapter 1 and 2, (the word used 10 times), are the more profound, with their implications to human history. (See Kovacs, reference and translation.) (kisru played against Zikru; the three s's, s, ş and š(sh) and z are all interchangeable in this, basically "No vowel used" language.)...///break apparently UN-signed: (I entered this info many months ago(2005/2006))(It's based on Maureen KOVACS great work, that was 10 years before Simo Parpola's)(My 3rd attempt at tranlating/transliterating(the last 3 paragraphs)-while looking up word usage in all chapters, I found "risque" stuff-I think the "insider" understanding,and reading of this on clay, is to be expected,knowing our species.)SonoranDesert guy-ArizonaUSA--Mmcannis 23:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] old talk

This bit about an untranslated tablet believed to be the twelfth tablet of Gilgamesh... where does the information come from? How come the tablet is "believed to contain" something when it's untranslated? Can anyone provide a link to a more informative news story? _________________________________________________________

I read that the 12th tablet had been translated and does not contain the 12th chapter of the epic. It contains a separate poem about Gilgamesh. In contrast to the first 11 tablets it includes both Shumerian and Akkadian texts.

Moved the passage about the Akkadian versions to the main part, as it did not belong to the 'Sumerian legends'. --Oop 11:15, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)

_________________________________________________________

Although the epic itself was lost for millennia, Hittite versions of it existed. Some people think that it has had an indirect impact on Western literature through the Biblical story of Noah and the flood, a suspected retelling of a portion of the Gilgamesh epic.

I'm a bit confused about the Hittite referrence since the most complete version we have of the Gilgamesh epic comes from the 7th century BC, long after the Hittite empire but also contemporary with the writing of the Bible. I'm going to go ahead and delete that part for now (someone may wish to revert and provide clarification). Grice 06:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Some serious criticism is needed to find out which versions of Gilgamesh epic have influenced the Old Testament the most. So, I would not dare to claim a special status for the Hittite version. While it may have been an important source for the Greek loans, I also would not say the genuine epic was lost for the time whilst Hittite version would have been dominant, as the passage above seems to suggest. Maybe it is only a question of bad wording, of course. --Oop 21:30, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] removed relevant bit

this got tossed out with the "trivia" section and could later be re-introduced into a more detailed version (if correct):

The Great flood from the Epic of Gilgamesh describes a cube-shaped vessel some 60 meters long on each side that was built in only seven days.

dab 19:22, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The purpose of mentioning this is to claim that the bible account is entirely different.

It is important to note that the trivia section failed to mention the similarities.

If the description goes back in then the similarities must be added as well. To fail to do so is not applying NPOV.

There is an article Great Flood which discusses the details of the flood account in the Epic of Gilgamesh. That article is where such detail belongs, if anywhere. And addition to that article also requires the addition of details of the similarities to be an NPOV addition. CheeseDreams 19:34, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

and your point is? the "trivia" section was not mine, and I considered deleting it before. You will note that I only cite the Gilgamesh bit, not the Genesis bit that was there also. Since this article is about the Epic of Gilgamesh, a more detailed summary of the action could eventually include this information. At the moment though, it was, I agree, just trivia. dab 19:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious deletions concerning Gilgamesh

Please refrain from your habitual deletions on the Gilgamesh articles regarding homosexuality. I am sure this is a misunderstanding. If you view the Epic of Gilgamesh entry and click on the link entitled "Is gay marriage older than the Bible?" you will see all requested information and sources. If you have any questions be sure to bring them up. Thanks. 67.41.186.237 02:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please refrain from adding dubious information to wikipedia. The link is dead. In general, websites are not reliable source if info and in absense of more solid data are disregarded. On my website I may post an article that Gilgamesh is my grandfather and send you to hell. I am perfectly aware that homosexuality was widesplead in ancient world, e.g., in Greece and East, but this is the case that requires solid confirmation, not some sensationalist article circulating in blogs. thank you. mikka (t) 02:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[1] This is hardly sensationalist. Not some personal blog but an acclaimed scholar. Here is a new link since the old one is out of use. 67.41.186.237 02:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The key phrases in a review are he admits he doesn't know Akkadian and Given the incomplete condition of the original, he has not hesitated to fill in some gaps. Feel free to write a wikipedia article about this book. mikka (t)
that review is by a person not a scholar, that fact still stands that a previously untranslated portion of the 12 tablet contained male homosexuality, that is undisputed 67.41.186.237 02:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and the ref. to he filled in the gaps is concerning story line not sexuality, you should read the book 67.41.186.237 03:00, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please stop adding unverified information, otherwise you will be blocked from editing. Feel free to write an article about the controversial book. mikka (t)

this information is verified, you will be blocked for persistent vandalism. it is ibviously verified, a source is given, and this scholar is acclaimed, your edits are contraversial 67.41.186.237 03:05, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The scholar does not know the language, he cannot be acclaimed as translator. You are violating the 3-revert rule. You may be blocked for this. mikka (t) 03:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Mikkalai is an arrogantly vapid twat who needs to check his facts. Try actually reading the book, dipshit. 131.111.195.8 18:37, 6 June 2005 (GMT)
the facts are checked. The book is written by a person who admits he does not know the language of the origin. Hence his work is a pure fiction, a translation from English to English. mikka (t) 17:45, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] homosexuality claims

"Some claim" will not do at all. By a long way. What exactly are the claims, and who published them, when and where? I would be interested to have even oblique references to homosexuality in Gilgamesh, but let's keep this up to academic standards. The more outlandish your claim, the better references you will need. Also, anon, at the stage when you think it necessary to begin calling people names like "dipshit", you probably need to sign up so people have a username to respond to. dab (ᛏ) 16:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is in the reference Mitchell, Stephen (2004). Gilgamesh: A New English Version.
The guy decided that traditional academic translations are very dry, and he decided to translate it into "modern English" (BTW, he confessed he does not know Akkadian. So you may imagine what academic quality this book is.) It amounted to spreading erotism and sex all over the text AFAIK. the rumors that Tablet 12 was suppressed because of homosexy in it is bull. Ancient pederasty has been pretty well known; and it was not suppressed in academia; rather it was not brandished at every possible occasion. mikka (t) 01:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
no, no, I mean a publication where the text is actually discussed, word by word, so that we can quote the actual phrase, with competing reconstructed readings, and their translations, so that we can judge what the allegations are based on. Just saying "there was homosexuality in tablet 12" without discussing the actual text is worthless of course. dab (ᛏ) 08:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • The LGBT Mythology category seems dubious. Having read three different translations, I can't imagine why anyone would conclude that it has any explicitly-stated homosexual themes in it. By applying these types of a loose standards, one could easily classify the Christian Bible as "Incestuous Mythology" based on Gen.19:30-38 and 2S.13:29. I say lose the category until actual text is cited. Most of the text is lost in translation, in my opinion. "Soulmate" citation with regards to Enkidu's relationship with Gilgamesh is archaic is doesn't necessarily imply homosexuality.

I've never heard anyone assert that the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu is concretely homosexual, but I have read many times that it contains abundant homoeroticism, which it clearly does. When Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh weeps for him as he would for a dead wife. You shouldn't have a hard time finding information on that.VatoFirme (talk) 02:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should be merged with Gilgamesh page?

Yes. And if there's not going to be any mention of the influence (or "possible influence") on the Bible (and subsequently the Avesta, Qur'an, etc.), than at least put the link to the Great Flood article here. Otherwise it looks suspiciously POV. Khirad 08:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some mention of the relationship between the flood story in the epic and other flood myths, including the biblical version. However, as far as the merge is concerned, as yourself one question; would you want to merge The Odyssey and Odysseus? Filiocht | Talk 13:45, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some more New Talk - The 11/12 "Chapters"

Some common lengths of the Chapters, is about 315 lines. For a 3-column tablet, with say, 52 lines per column, that gives 2 (3-Column) "tablets" per Chapter.( The pictured Tablet has about 50 lines, but represents probably 56-60 lines, some doubled)

I do not know the facts about the Ashurbanipal archives. However, the 1997, Parpola, "Computerized" work, (with a couple of typos only, that I saw), list all the tablets, in all the Museums, collections, etc. The average, with duplication, is about 5 tablets per chapter, about 65 tablets, and probably another 15-20 "pieces". ( 80 % are 3-Column )

I don't have anything against calling the 12 Chapters, 12 Tablets. Parpola's, "Archives of Assyria", work does list everything as Tablet 1, through Tablet 12. So that is consistent with this Wiki page. I just wanted to point out that the Sumerians to the Neo-Assyrians called their Chapter = Tablet. That is the ultimate reasoning why it is Tablet 1 thru Tablet 12. It is really the naming that the Neo-Assyrians stuck with. The chapters, (the 12 'tablets') are really, composed of multiple, mostly 3-Column tablets, 2-Column, as well as some 1-column, and etc.,.. including school tablets.....

Sorry, reread some things; Chapter 12 has 155 lines, 29/30 line columns, up to column VI. 6 times the 30 gives or 29 gives, 174,slightly different than the 155. There are 4 tablets listed for Parpola Standard Babylonian version, tablets A,B,C,D, also e. e is NB Neo-Babylonian, A-D are NA, or Neo-Assyrian (Ashurbanipal's time). (The last ( of the 155 )2 lines are Title Page lines and are separted by spaces.)..(All the 12 Tablets, have an item on the last two lines ( the "colophon"?), which states "Ending, and the title of the next chapter coming up". ) ( The Colophon is also used as a "signature", line or lines. }..M McAnnis


The whole topic could be confusing to one who knows nothing of the 12 Tablets. They really are 12 Chapters, but originally called 12 Tablets. .....Michael McAnnis,YumaAZ


The reason for 'Chapter' discussion. I read a little of the above discussions, and it is not as easy as just grabbing ( 1 ) "tablet" and translating it. It just sounded like every body was talking about one "tablet" to study for chapter 12, or whatever. That's not the reality of it. MMcAnnis

[edit] Note on Tablet 11?

This seems to be very technical and somewhat out-of-place. Is it worth having in the article?--Rob117 19:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. I had a hard time trying to figure out what it is saying. At the very least it needs to be rewritten in a less technical format. --71.242.182.172 04:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trivial?

Though oft pic w a bow, he didn't actually carry 1, but a battleax called Might of Heroism (or so I've read...) Trekphiler 17:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Noah's ark page

I'd be grateful if any experts on the subject could have a look at the Noah's ark page, other flood accounts section, which I've just revised. Please note that I'm only after fact-checking - explicit parallels with the Genesis account are not encouraged, being of a highly inflammatory nature. Thanks. PiCo 02:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest work of literature

Let's talk here about how we should phrase the first sentence, i.e., is it "The oldest known" work of literature, "one of the oldest known", "arguable the oldest known", etc. Given the possibility of other texts, I think it should read "is arguable the oldest work of literature" with a [1] at the bottom of the page explaining the uncertainty. AdamBiswanger1 00:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Works for me. Change it to "arguably," though for grammatical correctness. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Some more info - see Ancient literature. I'm not sure if it's so arguable, so maybe "one of" is better... — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence on later Epic Literature

The source cited for influence on the Odyssey (Kakridis) is rather old, and also unavailable in English. It should be replaced by a reference to something more recent and in English. I'd suggest e.g. M.L. West 1997, The East Face of Helicon. I don't have a copy to hand so can't do it myself. Petrouchka 22:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

this should be included in the gilgamesh disabiguation page

[edit] Arabian mythology?

Are you joking? There were no Arabs in Mesopotamia in the 26th century BC. Arabs did not arrive until the 6th centruy AD. So please remove this inaccurate information. It would be like saying that Aztec mythology is the same as Castille mythology. Worse, since there is over 3000 years time difference between Arabs in Iraq and Gilgamesh. Gees.... Tourskin

[edit] Huh...wha...

What the hell? This article is incrediably rubbish. It does not explain the actual story. Please someone, make a paragraph describing the whole story. This article has it all tangled up with archealogical information about different versions - and what about the actual epic? Come on. Its disorganized. It needs to be clearly paragraphed. Seperate out the info about different versions and different dates (which has been repeated twice, once at the beginning and the middle) from the actual story / poem. Tourskin

Lots of typos, too. Wish I had time to fix it, but in the meantime, I'll just point the fact out. :-)

[edit] Picture

This tablet is first of all not from the Ur III period but from the Akkad period and therefore predates all Gilgamesh references. The text on the cylinder seal also doesn’t mention Gilgamesh and the image is reversed. Mesopotamian cylinder seals depict a lot mythological scenes without making clear what exactly the story behind it is. Heroes fighting animals is a frequent motive and has most likely nothing to do with Gilgamesh. Notice how one of the figures fights a lion unlike the Giglames epic. I removed the picture. Djaser 09:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Gilgamesh and the story of Noah's ark in Genesis

The article says, "Some aspects of the Gilgamesh flood myth seem to be related to the story of Noah's ark in the Bible, see deluge (mythology)." This is understated, since some details of the flood myth in the Gilgamesh, such as releasing birds to test whether the flood has subsided and placing the rainbow in the sky, in this case Ishtar's necklace, to guarantee that the world will not return to the primal chaos, are obviously related. Both the J source and the P source in Genesis attribute all actions to one god, whereas the Gilgamesh has one god as destroyer and another as preserver. Jim Lacey 18:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A 2-day Library-trip, by a Scribe

OK, take this as a proposal: A scribe who decides to make another copy of the 11(12) Tablets(for another CITY, or TOWN) decides to undertake the task, BUT he(she?) hasn't read every chapter SEQUENTIALLY in say 4 to 5 years. So he, goes to the library and decides to read the 11 tablets in a 1-1 one-half day mini vacation. He takes the wife, and two kids, and she focuses on food, kids, play, etc....and he reads, maybe jotting notes. MY POINT: yes the populace, the people knew this story. It was part of their SOCIOLOGY, part of their STRUCTURE, and relationships in their societies, ...but the story, what was said in the words, ...maybe the phrases, the nuances,...I contend there was a lot of inside knowledge known, or thought, or discussed by the scribes(ONLY BY The SCRIBES). I've worked on 30 to 40 Amarna letters, and I wish the general public has GOOD access to side by side Translations, and transliterations. The phrases, and the words are Wonderful: A scribe(The King of Mitanni-Tushratta) talks about the Scribes being detained in Egypt (for 8(?) years) and getting over the "hurdle", the "impasse", of the discussion: the word used in Akkadian is: "Mountain", for Hurdle. It is wonderful stuff, trying to get over Hurdle discussions. ....But you have to do some translating... without the cheat sheets... (and 'SOME' of the side by side translating is called: Part-of-speech tagging with Text corpus'es)(like the Amarna letters Text corpus)--....SonoranDesert fellow/ -ArizonaUSA- ...Mmcannis 00:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit]

[edit] Blank....

Last I looked (7:10 am PST, Oct 30), this page was completely blank....anyone willing to fix this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.173.76 (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


Siduri was a fish? In tablet 10 it states that "Gilgamesh meets the alewife Siduri", the "alewife" links to the page of the fish. 81.129.125.71 (talk) 14:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] These sentences makes no sense.

"The history of the epic is divided into two periods: old, and late. Many versions exist from this almost 2,050 year span, but only the old and the late periods have yielded significant enough finds to enable a coherent intro-translation."

These are badly written sentences, and the second sentence is written like there were more than the two periods listed. I don't understand what the writer meant, or I'd fix it. 138.192.86.254 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sumerian version

I'm not sure where the unreference Old-Babylonian section comes from, but I added a new section on the Sumerian version, as per the ETCSL.

Does anybody know where the Old Babylonian section comes from, and could they reference it? IansAwesomePizza (talk) 18:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)