User talk:Ephdot

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Hello, Ephdot, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! --Merovingian (T, C) 20:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Robthoburn, PLEASE, take it to the talk page!

{{helpme}}

Fuel efficiency in transportation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

Robthoburn (talk · contribs) is adamantly making contested edits to the Fuel efficiency in transportation page and won't use talk page first. What do I do? I've asked him/her a few times now to discuss them... Ephdot (talk) 15:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution is where you will find all of the information you need. It covers everything from the first steps of resolving a dispute using the talk page to requesting temporary full page protection and even arbitration (which should be used only as a last resort option). But first, I'd suggest adding a message to the said user's talk page (at User talk:Robthoburn) and provide him/her with a link to the article's talk page (at Talk:Fuel efficiency in transportation). Hope that helps. Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 15:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
He's on the talk page now, I think we're working it out. Thanks. Ephdot (talk) 15:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
now someone under 84.65.209.122 (talk) is deleting sections of the page. Any way of checking if it's the same user? This is frustrating... Ephdot (talk) 19:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Only those with checkuser rights have access to that information. Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 19:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I filled out a form. How long do I have to wait? I see there's a backlog. Ephdot (talk) 19:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
CheckUser is done as a last resort thing. I'd suggest making page protection as your FIRST OPTION to let things cool down. Then (if needed) either Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents or Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets to take further action later. Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 20:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. Ephdot (talk) 20:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Can I cancel the CheckUser? It's one and the same user: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AFuel_efficiency_in_transportation&diff=200696813&oldid=200696627

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Robthoburn

Hi, I have delisted your case, I think Robthoburn simply forgot to log in (his edits leave no doubt this is the same person). After a (very quick) glance, I don't think he has broken any rule (specifically WP:3RR). -- lucasbfr talk, checkuser clerk, 13:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC).

OK. If you put both user's/all edits together, there's some very aggressive editing going on there. I'm not looking for punishment, I'd like to see the truth in the wiki page, not the edits of some very aggressive person determined to make rail look more efficient than it is. Ephdot (talk) 14:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sorting problem.

I can't get either of these tables to sort properly...

Using firefox browser.

Summarysm=n
1.4 Lsm=n
2 Lsm=n
19 Lsm=n
1 Lsm=n


Summary
1.4L sm=n
2L sm=n
19L sm=n
1L sm=n


What do you mean by "Sort" --The Helpful One (Review) 12:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

{{helpme}} When you press the sort button on the table, it orders the numbers: 1L, 1.4L, 19L, 2L. It may be new math, but it should be: 1L, 1.4L, 2L, 19L. (I used the sm=n flag, BTW) Do I need to keep using the helpme template when I post a response to a user talk entry? Ephdot (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
See Help:sorting. Depending on what the first entry is (if it's a number or a character in the first row), the table will sort differently. In your case, all of them are alpha - so it's sorting your values alphabetically instead of numerically. I've never gotten that sm=n thing to work either. The best thing to do would be to remove your units like this:
Summary (L)
1.4
2
19
1
Hoof Hearted (talk) 14:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that won't work so well for my actual table... Is there a bugs registry somewhere? Maybe I can fix it. Ephdot (talk) 14:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
There's a HUGE discussion at Template talk:Sort. Actually, you may try {{sortkey}}. This is a clunky way to do it, but look at this code: Hoof Hearted (talk) 14:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Summary
1.4 L
2 L
19 L
1 L
Hmmm, the entries come from a table, so making this work will be tricky. I'll look at the discussion. Thanks Ephdot (talk) 14:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Ephdot,
Actually I'm no sort key expert but instead of
Vehicle Fuel efficency
my car 12 L/100 km (20 MPGe)
your car 20 L/100 km (12 MPGe)
his car 24 L/100 km (10 MPGe)
her car 10 L/100 km (24 MPGe)
how about


Vehicle L/100 km MPGe
my car 12 20
your car 20 12
his car 24 10
her car 10 24
Even if it doesn't fix the sort key problem, it'll make the table easier to read. As for having a second max. avg. table ... why not, it couldn't hurt. Jɪmp 01:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
After a little experimentation I've pretty much convinced myself that this will work and hope you don't mind if I swoop down on the MPGe templates to get it working. Jɪmp 01:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd rather you didn't... The "sm=n" should be fixed, not (over)worked around. I know my fix isn't pretty, but once the problem is fixed, only two lines need to be removed. Plus it will hopefully add to the impetus to fix it.
Also, you'll need to find a way to make the L/100 km and MPGe values look together. If you really want to do it, do you mind copying a version to the talk page so we can discuss it? Ephdot (talk) 02:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I like the white on white cheat - looks much better. Ephdot (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
We wouldn't be working around it but eliminating the need for it. I'll outline what I've got in mind at Template talk:MPGe#Suggestions. Jɪmp 03:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Why can't it just be fixed? There are other tables on wikipedia that aren't working properly, perhaps nobody noticed? Ephdot (talk) 04:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
As I mentioned, I'm not the sortable expert but it looks like it's not {{smn}} but sortable which is broken. If I'm right, it'll probably take a developer to fix it. They are probably not likely to notice the malfunctioning table on MPGe. If you hope to have things fixed, you'd probably be best reporting the problem. P.S. I've made a start on the promised Suggestions section. Jɪmp 06:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] {{helpme}}

I have a fix for the "sm=n" sort problem. See the Template talk:MPGe#table sort fix.. I can't insert it into the .js page. Can someone else verify and do this? Ephdot (talk) 14:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you are going to have to post this on WP:AN to get an admin to look at it for you. GtstrickyTalk or C 16:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
OK. I wanted to be sure the fix didn't go on this side before I create an account on the bugs server thingy. Thanks. Ephdot (talk) 16:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fuel efficiency in transportation

The fuel efficiency in transportation page has references to MJ/km (electric) converted to gasoline equivalents using the full caloric value of the fuel ~35 MJ/L (I think). This is absolutely wrong because maximum theoretical efficiency is 83% (even for fuel cells). We're closer to 33% (25%..40%) in real applications at the moment.

The MPGe page looked like a good metric to use for comparison, only it turns out this measure is not so common plus isn't metric. Converting other fuel equivalents using caloric values seems quite common and uncontested, but the name varies: MPGE, mpgge and MPGe.

There doesn't seem to be a common measure compatible with SI. Commonly used L/100 km isn't exactly an SI measure (according to the wiki litre page) though conversion is simple.

Finally, even with an explicit value chosen, 11 kWh/US gallon or 2.9 kWh/L which represents Coal efficiency at creating power and also the common 33% efficiency of heat engines, there is no agreement for allowing a fair comparison between electric and fossil fuel powered vehicles.

What a mess. Ephdot (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Should we, perhaps, then forget about engergy to volume-of-given-fuel conversions altogether? Should we not just report what is in the source without making any assumptions? If the source gives mi/BTU give a straightforward conversion to km/kJ? Jɪmp 04:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, the whole point is to compare fuel (energy) efficiency in transportation. If limited to fossil fuels and heat engines, whether internal or external, we have a relatively good comparison basis with MPGe. If you throw in non-fossil-fuel power generators into the mix, like wind energy, this comparison breaks down. The other idea (which is OR) is to take the generating plant out of the equation whether for internal of external power generators. Then you're comparing power MJ/km, that is required to move a vehicle along without power plant efficiency considered. This would require some method of accounting for an internal power generator (engine). Ephdot (talk) 16:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course, it's not up to us to assume a 33% efficiency. We should only report what we've got sources for. Let's stear clear of OR and from conversions and units of our own invention. Jɪmp 09:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uncategorising your subpage

I always feel bad editing someone else's subpage. Do forgive the intrusion by I removed the categorisation of User:Ephdot/MPGe. Jɪmp 04:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to do just that (and other things) but a network problem (not on my end) prevented it. Thanks for fixing it. Ephdot (talk) 11:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New {{MPGe}} Code

The following should do the same.

<includeonly>{{formatnum: {{sigfig|{{#switch:{{{2}}} <!-- comment here? -->
|Gas/100 km=   {{#expr:(({{{1}}}))}}
|Diesel/100 km={{#expr:(({{{1}}}) / 0.88)}}
|JetK/100 km=  {{#expr:(({{{1}}}) / 0.897736144)}}
|BTU/100 km=   {{#expr:(({{{1}}}) / 115000)}}
|kWh/100 km=   {{#expr:(({{{1}}})) }}
|mpgus=
|mi/USGas=     {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}}))}}
|mi/USDiesel=  {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}}) * 0.88)}}
|mi/USJetK=    {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}}) * 0.897736144)}}
|mi/BTU=       {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}}) * 115000)}}
|mi/kWh=       {{#expr:1 / (({{{1}}}) /1.609344)*100}}
|mpgimp=
|mi/ImpGas=    {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}})/1.20095042)}}
|mi/ImpDiesel= {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}})/1.20095042 * 0.88)}}
|mi/ImpJetK=   {{#expr:235.214584 / (({{{1}}})/1.20095042 * 0.897736144) 
}}|{{{3|}}} }} }} {{#switch: {{{2|}}}  <!-- comment here? -->
}}{{#switch: {{{2|}}}
|mi/kWh=kWh
|kWh/100 km=kWh
|L
}} /100 {{#ifeq:{{{p|}}}|on|p·}}km {{#switch: {{{2}}} <!-- comment here? -->
|kWh/100 km=
|mi/kWh=
|({{formatnum: {{sigfig|{{#switch: {{{2}}}
|Gas/100 km=   {{#expr:235.214584 /({{{1}}})}}
|Diesel/100 km={{#expr:235.214584 /({{{1}}}) / 0.88 }}
|JetK/100 km=  {{#expr:235.214584 /({{{1}}}) / 0.897736144 }}<!--
|BTU/100 km=   BTU per hundred kilometres -- what's this? -->
|mpgus=
|mi/USGas=     {{#expr:({{{1}}})}} 
|mi/USDiesel=  {{#expr:({{{1}}}) * 0.88 }} 
|mi/USJetK=    {{#expr:({{{1}}}) * 0.897736144 }}
|mi/BTU=       {{#expr:({{{1}}}) * 0.115000 }}
|mpgimp=       {{#expr:({{{1}}})/1.20095042 }}
|mi/ImpGal=    {{#expr:({{{1}}})/1.20095042 }}
|mi/ImpDiesel= {{#expr:({{{1}}})/1.20095042 *  0.88 }}
|mi/ImpJetK=   {{#expr:({{{1}}})/1.20095042 *  0.897736144 }}
}}|{{{3|3}}} }} }} {{#ifeq:{{{p}}}|on|p·}}{{#ifeq:{{{lk}}}|on|[[MPGe]]|MPGe}} US)
}}</includeonly><noinclude>

This Template formats mpg into [[MPGe]]<sub>US</sub> and L/100 km

*Gas/100 km=litres Diesel per hundred kilometres
*Diesel/100 km=litres Diesel per hundred kilometres
*JetK/100 km=litres Jet fuel per hundred kilometres
*kWh/100 km=kWh per hundred kilometres
*BTU/100 km=BTU per hundred kilometres
*mi/USGas=miles per US gallon of Gasoline 
*mpgus=miles per US gallon of Gasoline 
*mi/USDiesel=miles per US gallon of Diesel
*mi/USJetK=miles per US gallon of Jet Fuel (Kerosene)
*mi/BTU=miles per BTU
*mi/kWh=miles per kWh
*mi/ImpGas=miles per Imp gallon of Diesel
*mi/ImpDiesel=miles per Imp gallon of Diesel
*mi/ImpJetK=miles per Imp gallon of Jet Fuel (Kerosene)

Usage:

* {{MPGe|10|mpgus|lk=on}}: {{User:Ephdot/MPGe|10|mpgus|lk=on}}
* {{MPGe|10|mpgus}}: {{User:Ephdot/MPGe|mpgus|10}}
* {{MPGe|50|mpgus|3}}: {{User:Ephdot/MPGe|50|mpgus|3}}
* {{MPGe|10|mpgus|p=on}}: {{User:Ephdot/MPGe|10|mpgus|p=on}}

Options:
* The second parameter is decimal precision (default 1 decimal)
* p=on adds p· for passenger miles
* Make units [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)|wikilinked]] by attaching <code>|lk=on</code>.
*:The [[WP:MOS|manual of style]] suggests that you only link the first instance.
<!--
[[Category:Conversion templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]-->
</noinclude>

What I'd had in mind was entering the fuel and input unit as seperate parameters. It might made the template call somewhat clearer on the user's end, if slightly more cumbersome (you'd have to type an extra pipe). It should also make the template code a little simpler. Jɪmp 00:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I had thought of pulling the formatnum and sigfig out, but wasn't sure what would happen with the empty fields. Plus it gives more flexibility (if you wanted different sigfig for kWh for example). Two fields might not make it simpler, but if it makes it clearer, it might be worth doing. I was more Ephdot (talk) 11:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
BTUs is sometimes used for diesel operations. As long as it refers to a heat value from hydrocarbons, it's OK. Ephdot (talk) 11:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
What do you think about this:
  • MPGe | (mi/,/km,/100 km) | (BTU, kWh, MJ, Diesel, JetK, Gas) | imp=on
Ephdot (talk) 15:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It should be fine with the empty fields because the last two switches are placed one inside the other. What I was thinking was more along the lines of
  • units: mpgus, mpgimp, l/100 km, mi/BTU, mi/kwh, kWh/100 km, MJ/km, etc. and
  • fuel (or source): gasoline, petrol, diesel, JetK, electric, etc.
So, e.g. {{MPGe|123|mpgimp|diesel|3}}. I might be clearer ... would it do as good a job? JｴѦρ 18:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, there is overlap, which multiplies the arguments, though your way is more explicit. If you have kWh/100 km, why not Gas/100 km (which is what I had earlier)? The imperial system is being replaced by the metric system which is now accepted in the UK. Not the case with the U.S. (unfortunately). I'm liking the imp=on switch even more now, it makes things a little simpler.
What about a system=(imp, US, metric or SI) switch? All the (yucky) conversions would be handled there? imp => mpgimp, US => mpgus, metric => /100 km and SI => /km
So, MPGe | value | {BTU,kWh,MJ,gas,diesel,jetK} | {Imp, US, Metric, SI} Ephdot (talk) 18:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Could it not be a little confusing since SI is metric? Gas/100 km is kind of strange since gas is not a unit whereas kWh is. There are many ways to skin a cat though. JЇѦρ 19:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, L/100 km isn't exactly SI, should be m3·m-1? It just looks better than "/100 km"... If it's confusing, there's always RTFM... Ephdot (talk) 19:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
How about MPGe | value | {Heat,Electricity,Gas,Diesel,JetK} | {Imp, US, Metric, SI}? Ephdot (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
No, "l/100 km" is not SI. What I was hinting at was that "MJ/km" and "km/MJ" are both both metric and SI. Or from another angle "l/100 km", "km/l", "kWh/km", "km/kWh", "MJ/km", "km/MJ", etc. are all metric. Similarly, "BTU/mi" and "mi/BTU" are both imperial and US customary. "kWh/mi" and "mi/kWh" are hybrid imperial/US customary-metric. So how do you know what units you're getting out of this or that template call? I'm sure it'll all be explained on the talk page but it'll leave other users bewildered as to why the units are not input directly. ... Actually ... I'm curious, what input will give what units? JЇѦρ 04:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Your way is better. I'll make the changes when I have some time. Ephdot (talk) 12:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
See user:Ephdot/MPGeV2 for a first draft. Ephdot (talk) 21:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)