Talk:Enver Hoxha

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Contents

[edit] Chairman Mao

In Enver Hoxha picture,when he is smiling,he kind of looks like chairman mao (the first communist leader of china).

[edit] 2003

The free, democratic world reads with both disdain and shock and anger and complete sadness of the life and times of Albania's mericural dictator/serial killer Enver Hoxha (really pronounced Hogena). Today we see his son, Ilir,write a memoir in which his father, a bold-faced liar who praticed his own brand of knee-jerk communism by isolating his country,jailing and killing thousands and proclaiming that all of this great leadership was necessary to keep Albania shoulder-to-shoulder with Marxism-Leninism. Which is a new/old way of saying, "Im a disctator with no education or real ideas of my own and I always wanted to be a serial killer and execute innocent men, women and children with impunity." It's little wonder, and to our credit and high degree of intelligence, that we reject such bloodthirsty,power-hungry tin-horn dictators and expose them for the true serial killers and pushers of an unwanted brand of hate mongering and isolationalism that they truly are! Look in a mirror Enver Hoxha!

Comes now a book of utter garbage and filth and lies by his son, Ilir Hoxha, in which the apologizer for his fathers failed policies now says, "Gee folks, my dad wasnt a dictator, he was a cool,little man beloved by the world and a true democrat!!" What a forgettable,miserable, and worthless apologizer this son turned out to be. Instead of revealing how his father murdered Defense Minister Koci Xoxe and even murdered Prime Minister Mehment Shehu because basically he was a scared, insecure, and jealous whimp of a "leader", we get easy to see thru lies about how daddy Hoxha was a nice grandfather to his little grandsons! When you commit First Degree Murder Mr. Hoxha you don't have any rights in this world of ours and you will be forgotten and ignored by the whole world as you lie moldering in your worthless, paupers grave. Thats right, in one heroic act, thousands of repressed Albanians removed Enver Hoxhas worhtless remains from the Heros's section of their national cemetery, least his cruel, uncaring soul stink up that scared place of high honor. His body now rightfully lies in a paupers grave fit for a serial killer who couldnt cut it as a simple elementery school teacher, so he became a vengeful dictator instead, thereby plunging Albania into a state of exreme dictatorship in which decent,good people were killed because they dared to worship God, or to critize their misfit of a leader. People were shuinned and starved and women were savagely raped in this "kind" dictators prisons. I guess son thought we'd forget-well we haven't. Ture love and understanding and democracy comes by respecting the rights and the feelings and the preciousness of the indiviual.

Hoxha, the cold, rejected butcherer of Albania was a failure as a teacher and an even worse failure as a leader. He was no John F. Kennedy, he was no Mother Theresa and he was certainly no Skanderbeg either. History will forever condemn Enver Hoxha as the Butcherer of Albania. The dictator is gone, Long live Freedom,human Liberties and respect of the individual and their rights,Long Live Democracy! E.R.R. Seattle,Wa. USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.81.26.17 (talk • contribs) 08:03, 21 April 2003 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree; could someone please fix this article? It is the most one-sided article on a dictator in the whole Wikipedia! He transformed his country from "semi-feudalism to an industrialized" nation; he brought "electricity and intellectual enlightenment". But his human rights abuses are only "alleged" by human rights organizations. For goodness' sake! --McCorrection 22:58, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree that the article was too soft on the regime's repression, but if you'll look at the edit history of the article you'll see that it has been frequently targeted for removal of info that does not reflect well on Hoxha. So it could use some balance from a hostile POV, but don't get out of hand; you just removed some perfectly valid info on improvements in literacy and health, an important feature of his rule. Everyking 00:08, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I rolled back this revision which seems to be a direct copy from this page (though now I notice that Hephaestos did the same) -- Jim Regan 04:13, 14 May 2004 (UTC)


This isn't supposed to be about whatever Enver Hoxha was "evil" or not, this is supposed to tell about his person and his achievements, even if whatever they were good or not is disputable. This page should try to reflect an impartial view on Hoxha and shouldn't be influenced by the writer's political opinions or ideology. Of course you must point out both the bad and the good thing he has done as or else the image of him would become faulty. Some of the things mentioned above are hardly relevant, and clearly seen from an Western and Populistic point of view. Not that I agree with the way Hoxha ruled, I still think you must give a proper image of him, and that doesn't mean that is has to be good, deciding if he was good or not is up to the reader of the article, as always. Never forget that because if you don't write in that manor it isn't informative, then it is propaganda, which is hardly the goal of Wikipedia.

[edit] spanish cival war

did enver hoxha not fight in the spanish cival war in an international brigadeBouse23 15:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Hugh Thomas (The Spanish Civil War, London, Penguin Books, 2003. ISBN-13: 978-0-14-101161-5) says in page 927 "Enver Hoxha was also a veteran of the Brigades". Nothing else is specified.--89.100.212.147 (talk) 07:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On his title

I think it is wrong to call Enver Hoxha a President of Albania. First, there was no President when Hoxha was in power. Second, the Head of State was a collegial body. Third, Hoxha never leaded that body. In the Communist Albania, as in other Communist countries since Stalin, the party leadership by the First Secretary or the Secretary General of the Central Committee was higher than the State leadership. Andres Andres 02:59, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

He may not have been president officially, but he had de facto absolute power in Albania until a few years prior to his death. I guess we should take him out of the list of presidents. Dori 03:08, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So do I. And if we want to have an equivalent to the President then the closest one is the Chairman of the Presidium of the People's Assembly (or something like that). There were three of them during the Communist Albania if my memory doesn't deceive me. Andres 04:32, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Indeed Enver Hoxha was not president of Albania.
Chairman of the Presidium of the People's Assembly were:
Omer Nishani 1946-53
Haxhi Lleshi 1953-82
Ramiz Alia 1982-91
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.14.41 (talk • contribs) 04:26, 22 March 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How do you pronounce his name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grouse (talk • contribs) 21:03, 26 July 2004 (UTC)

Prononce It Ho-cha that's what I've been told by my Book of Famous Communists.--Gustuv 00:54, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The xh is pronounced like the j in English jam. Shorne 19:18, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes i've used Ho-ja pronunciation before also--Gustuv 23:52, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Take the H O XH A letter pronunciations from Albanian alphabet (the ogg file) and put them together to get the approximate pronunciation of the word (you'd have to take out uh sounds after the consonants H and XH to get the actual sound). Dori | Talk 00:09, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Text

However, it should be noted that there were several attempts to overthrow Hoxha, including attempted US and UK-backed invasions by Albanian exiles during the late 1940s and early 1950s. I have not found any evidence of these attempts could someone show proof?--Gustuv 04:40, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's a bit POV, but I believe there were some Albanians who went in with the intent of assassinating Hoxha during one of the May Day parades. They weren'ble to though. If I can find the story, I'll post it. I don't remember if there was an English translation, and I have no idea if that would constitute proof. Dori | Talk 00:00, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
Some stories (no idea if they're true, still haven't found the one I'm thinking of though): [1]. Dori | Talk 00:48, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
See Vol 2 of Barbara Jelavic's History of the Balkans. Online, see [2] or dozens of other articles about Kim Philby. The program was a failure due to the espionage of the Cambridge Spy Ring. Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.93.198 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 25 October 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Albania

Albania was a communist state under Enver Hoxha, I've watched Albanian Propaganda films which say so--Gustuv 01:50, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

User:Mihnea Tudoreanu has replaced the fine-tuned intro that previously existed with this:

Enver Hoxha (October 16, 1908 - April 11, 1985) was prime minister of Albania from 1944 to 1954 and minister of foreign affairs from 1946 to 1953. As the First Secretary of the Albanian Party of Labour, he was also the de facto leader of Albania from the end of World War II until his death. Under Hoxha, whose rule was characterized by isolation from the rest of Europe and firm adherence to Stalinism, Albania emerged from semi-feudalism to become an industrialized communist state.

First off, the early titles are relatively unimportant and should not constitute the first sentence. The first sentence should refer generally to his role as communist leader of Albania from WWII until his death, as it did before. Also, the country was not a communist state in an economic sense and I will forever resist inserting this dumbed-down formulation into the article. The sentence is plainly referring to the country's economy, and the economy was plainly socialist—as it said before. Everyking 17:22, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And what definition of "socialism" are you using, exactly? Read the socialism article, for God's sake. There are at least 3 different ideologies (Marxism, social democracy, libertarian socialism) which claim "socialism" as their very own. These 3 ideologies further have an immense number of branches and off-shoots, each with their own version of socialism - and these versions are often mutually exclusive (see the Trotskyism vs. Stalinism debate, for example).
The only thing that can be said for certain about Hoxha and Albania is that they were Stalinist. Anything else would mean taking sides in the debate between the supporters of various types of socialism.
If we use the standard (and original) definition of socialism, which states that Socialism is the economic system in which the workers (or the people in general) control the means of production, then Albania was plainly NOT socialist, since the means of production were controlled by a small minority of Party oligarchs.
Further, I certainly agree that the term "communist state" is dumbed-down and inappropriate (not to mention being an oxymoron, since "communism" is a stateless and propertyless system), but this is the term generally used by Wikipedia. If you wish, I will gladly agree to use the term "stalinist state" or "stalinist country" instead. There will be no compromise on your biased use of the word "socialist", however. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Do you plan on removing such references from every article that refers to things as socialism or socialist, since there are so many different varieties and interpretations of socialism? It is commonly accepted and proper to refer to Soviet-style states as having socialist economic systems, and moreover, the intro already refers to Hoxha's Stalinism, so it is placed in context. I don't object to the use of the term "communist state" in a political sense, but it is totally unacceptable in a sentence about economics. To remove the mention of socialism makes it difficult to give a proper introductory summary of the economic transformation of Albania in these years, but if you can think of a better wording, I'm open to compromise. Perhaps there is a way we could briefly define the kind of socialism that existed in Albania during the Hoxha years without getting into too much wordiness and hairsplitting? Everyking 18:46, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A "communist state" is more than a political entity. It also implies a certain kind of economic system. I believe this is already mentioned in the communist state article (and if it isn't, then it should be). However, if you remain intent on not using the term "communist state" in a sentence about the economy, then I will try to think of an alternative description that can be accepted by all sides. In the mean time (until we resolve this dispute), perhaps we should leave the first paragraph saying "...an industrialized state", with no additional adjectives. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:53, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In that context, however, it makes sense to read it as referring to the economy. Anyway, I don't know how you can justify removing any mention of the Albanian economy in these years as socialist. We can't use the commonly accepted term for that economic system because a few segments of the left object to it? We can't call the USSR socialist either, logically, and we have to remove all direct references to socialist economics from all articles pertaining to Soviet-style systems, their leaders and sympathetic political parties? Forgive me when I say I am afraid. Everyking 19:06, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A "few segments" of the left object to it? Everyone on the left objects to it! No socialist wants to have anything to do with any communist states - and least of all with one as... unusual as Albania. And the communists - virtually all the communists - also reject any connection with Albania. Enver Hoxha managed to become the enemy of every other communist on Earth, remember? Albania wasn't even seen as a socialist country by its fellow communist states! That is, in essence, the reason why I object to calling Albania socialist: Not a single socialist or communist outside Albania saw that country as being socialist. At least the Soviet Union was considered "socialist" by most of its fellow communist states, and by most communists in general. This was not the case for Albania.
In addition, let me once again make clear my position on the matter of socialism: Socialism is the economic system in which the workers (or the people in general) control the means of production. That's it. I don't add any other conditions. I am by no means "sectarian" as one of your comments accused me of being. I'm not even picky on the issue of whether that popular control over the means of production has to be direct or indirect. As long as the people control the means of production, or control an institution (such as the state) which, in turn, controls the means of production, then we have a socialist system. But if the means of production are controlled by an all-powerful oligarchy, then I'm afraid we don't have socialism, no matter if that oligarchy calls itself the "Communist Party" and claims to be the "vanguard of the proletariat". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm with Everyking. Communist state is not established usage at Wikipedia—or, if it is, it shouldn't be. It is indeed a dumbed-down and deceptive term. The correct term for a state like Albania under Hoxha is socialist.
Saying "an industrialized state" is ridiculous. If you want to dance around socialist, how about "Hoxha led Albania to industrialization? Shorne 19:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
First of all, see my reply to Everyking above. Second of all, I'm afraid "communist state" is established usage at Wikipedia. And third of all, I have nothing against the phrase "Hoxha led Albania to industrialization". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Was Hoxha a suicide also?

I'm pretty sure that I've heard it suggested that Hoxha's death was also a suicide? Is there anything to this? - Rlquall 16:54, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You probably mean Mehmet Shehu, whose death was officially reported as suicide. Hoxha had diabetes and heart problems, I've never heard it suggested that it was suicide. Everyking 17:08, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Shehu committed suicide while I was stationed in Germany, I think, perhaps it was more noted there that it would've been in the U.S. Maybe this made enough of an impression on me that later when Hoxha died I somehow just associated the death of Albanian communist leaders with suicide. Thanks for your help. - Rlquall 20:40, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hoxha did not commit suicide. He died of a ventricular fibrillation. Shorne 19:23, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Probably the best thing is that he did die. - Rlquall 13:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He was pretty much out of it (mentally) by the time he died. I don't think he could have committed suicide on purpose. Some people have floated rumors that his doctors might have killed him, but it's pretty much a loony theory as far as I know. Dori | Talk 00:03, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Predecessor as leader of Albania

It really seems like a stretch to say the Victor Emmanuel III was the de facto leader of Albania. He (and the Axis) certainly considered himself to be the de jure leader, and I don't ever remember reading who the Allies considered to be such, if anyone. If we are going to say that Hoxha was proceeded by a de facto leader, I would suggest that person would be Benitio Mussolini, since he really ran things in that era. Victor Emmanuel wasn't even the de facto leader of Italy during the Fascist period, if we are going to use that term in its true meaning. - Rlquall 19:08, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the statement doesn't make much sense, but I have no idea what is meant by de facto anyway. I'm trying to stay out of editing the article, as last time I tried I had a tough time being neutral. I believe the article in the current state skews toward a sympathetic POV (heck, even the picture is an artist rendition from his regime days, anyone notice the resemblence to the Stalin, Mao portraits?). Dori | Talk 00:13, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Industrialisation

There is a pretty obvious contradiction in this article, regarding industrialisation of Albania under Hoxha.

The intro says "Under Hoxha...Albania emerged from semi-feudalism to become an industrialized state."

And later we read: "The vaunted industry of Albania was, in fact, completely fictional"

Camillus McElhinney 21:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Albania did become industrialised under Enver Hoxha. I do not know who your sources are, alas, they are not mentioned, but I have plenty of sources and statistics on Albanian industry under Enver Hoxha. Please update this article as it is one of the poorest I have the displeasure of reading on wikipedia.

[edit] "an even worse failure as a leader"

Unless you count his achievements..... No matter what your opinion, the whole point of Wikipedia and indeed intelectual development is to look at the facts. The truth is with Hoxha there were both huge steps forward for Albania, and also the aforementioned human rights abuses etc. The O' Donnell book on Hoxha is pretty much the best, balanced history, it doesn't pull its punches, but it also acknowledges the huge leap taken by the PSR of Albania into the 20th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.91.243 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Comments by 69.209.133.220 (talk · contribs) 02:38-2:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC) are here.
Well, unfortunately for Hoxha apologists (and that includes relative "moderates" of the field, such as O'Donnell), subsequently to the fall of the communist regime the Albanian borders opened to the world, and it became clear how well the "strides forward" mythology stood to critical examination (that is, not very well at all). And no amount of revisionist history, even of the kind admitting to communist Albania's purges and repression, can change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.97.62.65 (talk • contribs) 12:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is filled with POV assessments of Hoxha's rule and needs major work, as well as citations and references. Kwertii 09:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. More of the good things about his rule should be mentioned, such as vastly improved education, sharp life expectancy rise, stopping clan fighting in the north, womens rights, etc. Then again, I'm pro-Hoxha. --Mrdie 21:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "former Muslim"

Absolutely no evidence is given in this article that he was ever Muslim or that he ever renounced it. So I'm removing him from Category:Former Muslims and List of former Muslims. I'm pretty fuzzy on the "atheist" thing, too. Citations needed, although I'll leave it for the moment. — coelacan talk — 06:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Communists infiltrating wikipedia - trying to spread lies about the dictator

What is this? Can we get a citation?

By 1950, many reforms were instituted. Illiteracy dropped from around 80-85% to 31%, the regime confiscated farmland from wealthy landowners and consolidated it into collective farms, imprisoning and executing thousands in the process, though also averting famine and greatly improving the quality of agriculture, making it nearly self-sufficient.

"A Stalinist and fervent nationalist, Enver Hoxha, left, led Albania for 40 years after World War II. Hoxha brought life to Albania’s economy and modernized the nation, but at the cost of human rights. Increasingly isolationist, he moulded Albania into a firmly controlled, self-sufficient outpost of hardline Communism." - MSN Encarta. I added in that part you mentioned to the article from various sources. Hoxha wasn't perfect, but he was treated like he absolutely ruined Albania's economy and made no progress at all before my edits. Even the part I added says "the regime confiscated farmland from wealthy landowners and consolidated it into collective farms, imprisoning and executing thousands in the process".

Furthermore, even the "Killer files" website says good things about him.

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hoxha.html

"By the late 1980s the level of illiteracy will have been turned around, with the number of students in the country rising from fewer than 60,000 in 1939 to more than 750,000 by 1987. By 2000 only 15% of the adult population are illiterate." --Mrdie 06:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Maoism??

I note that this is part of the series on Maoism and even mentions Enver Hoxha's "swing to Maoism". I think this is quite inappropriate, Enver Hoxha considered Mao, at one point and time, a great Marxist-Leninist, but he never elevated Mao Tse-tung Thought to the point that he considered it the third component of Marxism, nor did he ever say he was a follower of Mao Tse-tung Thought, anyone who has read Enver's "Imperialism and the Revolution" knows that he declared Mao Tse-tung Thought an Anti-Marxist ideology and devotes nearly half of the entire book on denouncing Maoism and the Chinese Revolutionary period led by Mao. So, to call him a Maoist in any sense of the word is quite inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.183.91.215 (talk) 20:24, August 27, 2007 (UTC)