Talk:Enoch Powell

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[edit] Views on Northern Ireland

There seems to be a lack of clarity in the article about Powell's views on Northern Ireland's devolved government vs. direct rule from Westminster:

"he opposed, with increasing vehemence, Heath's approach to Northern Ireland, the greatest breach with his party coming over the imposition of direct rule in 1972."

Then,

"he believed that it [The United Kingdom] would survive only if the Unionists strove to integrate fully with the United Kingdom by abandoning the devolved rule that Northern Ireland had until recently enjoyed."

And

"He claimed the ambiguous nature of the province's status, with its own parliament and prime minister, gave hope to the PIRA that it could be detached from the rest of the UK"

So, which was his attitude on direct rule? If he held both views at different times, this should be mentioned more explicitly, along with when and why he changed his mind.

These are not quite the same thing. He used to say he thought the status of Northern Ireland should be no different from that of (say) Yorkshire. This would mean not having an elected assembly for N.I. but the corollary would be that its number of MPs at Westminster would be increased to the same ratio to the population as for England & Wales. "Direct rule" in 1972 abolished the N.I. Parliament but did not increase N.I.'s MPs at Westminster, so there was what would nowadays be called a "democratic deficit" because there had always been reduced representation in the UK parliament to compensate for having its own local parliament. Woblosch (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it true that Enoch Powell and Ian Paisley did not get on at all well? Millbanks (talk) 22:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there was any great affection between the two. Powell always viewed Paisley as a demagogue who had no respect for Parliament. From reading Heffer's biography they had a few public clashes. In 1981 Powell called Paisley a "bully and a coward" and claimed that what Paisley really wanted was a Protestant Ulster outside the Union. In 1982 Powell called for voters to reject the "Protestant Sinn Fein" of Paisley and said Paisley wanted devolution to use it "as a launching pad for unlawful action and rebellion". Paisley then denounced the "venomous hatred and the mad rantings of the arch-Unionist Enoch Powell". In 1983 Powell said Paisley "would do better to stay away and abuse this House and parliament from long range instead of coming here to make a mockery of it by his presence". Paisley then claimed if Powell was in charge during the Ulster Crisis the Unionists "would have been sadly betrayed and sold to the enemy" because of Powell's belief in the sovereignty of Parliament, and that Powell knew nothing about Ulster people.--Johnbull (talk) 23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Views on America

"He was also immensely suspicious of American foreign policy after what he deemed to be the American betrayal of British interests during the Suez Crisis."

This is not quite true. Powell had thought America was Britain's enemy while serving in the army during the Second World War after talking with some senior American officers in Algiers which had confirmed, to Powell, that one of America's main war aims was to end the British Empire and undermine Britain.

Powell was opposed to the Suez campaign of 1956 because he thought that when in 1954 the British decided to leave Suez they did so because they could not maintain themselves there and so any attempt to reclaim Suez was illogical.

Also in 1954 Powell changed from a believer in an "Empire of positions" (an imperialist) where Britain could be a world power through military bases around the world to a British nationalist where Britain should get rid of her nuclear weapons, get rid of the Commonwealth, not join the E.E.C. and keep Ulster.

Powell in the 1980s claimed that America was pressurising British Governments to get Ulster into a united Ireland so that the all-Ireland state would join NATO and so have complete mastery of the Atlantic.

one of America's main war aims was to end the British Empire and undermine Britain - what utter twaddle. RickK 21:23, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

No he really did believe that.

And he was not the only one. Certainly by 1945 Roosevelt and Churchill were at loggerheads over the future of the Empire.

Hey Rick, please read the facts documented in The Collapse of British Power by Corelli Barnett and then see if you still think it is twaddle that America wanted to finish the British Empire - AG, Stockport, UK.

A reading of the 'Atlantic Charter' and Churchill's doubts about US insistence on certain aspects of it is instructive.

[edit] "Some regarded as racist"

Way to down play the racism of Enoch Powell, a speech "that some regarded as racist"? What is unclear about Powells racism in that speech? (or more generally?) I agree, racism is 'controversial', something that is given little significance in this article at all, despite it being a defining element of Powells character/ideas

Of course, it all depends on what you mean by "racist". I personally, along with a great deal of other people, would not consider Powell racist. Certainly, saying it was "a defining element of Powells [sic] character/ideas" is not only intellectually lazy, but wrong as well.

Powell was not racist in that he never believed in white supremacy or wanted repatriation because the immigrants were non-white. He didn't want immigration because the immigrants were foreign and had a different culture. Powell would often say he never understood the concept of 'race' because no one could tell him what it was - "are an Englishman and a Welshman the same race, or different ones?" to quote Powell. Also, he added that if the immigrants were German or Russian there would still be a big 'problem'. Powell even admitted in an interview it was not 'impossible' for a black man to be British - just 'very hard'. To Powell it was about culture and nationality, not colour of skin.

Alot of what powell said has come true in todays "multicultural" society, he should be seen as a visionary rather than a racist

I think you've confused 'visionary' with 'bigot'. --209.166.75.105 10:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, people are not going to agree on this issue. As a result, it is perhaps prudent to leave the text as 'some regard as racist' unaltered. Our opinions don't really matter on an encyclopedia.81.152.241.156 17:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Housman's influence

...he completed his education at Trinity College, Cambridge, where he fell under the powerful influence of A. E. Housman...

I haven't got the books to hand, but I recall reading that by the time Powell arrived at Cambridge, Housman (in his mid seventies) was more or less withdrawn from active teaching, and that the only thing Powell learnt from him was the correct way to crack nuts or some other matter of social etiquette! True Housman may have still dominated the discipline but that isn't the same thing as implied above. Does anyone know for sure? Timrollpickering 01:32, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am guilty of the above comments based on a half-remembered radio profile I think. However, now I check the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography it says Under the influence of A. E. Housman he developed his skills as a textual critic... Of course, Powell's poetry was obviously influenced by Housman's so I think that the comment stands. Cutler 13:35, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

"fell under the influence"? Sounds a little sinister. Is the implication that Housman and Nietzsche led him to his xenophobic politics? How about just "was influenced by"? Col pogo 23:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toning down

Not sure why we're so scared of the word controversial, Powell was certainly that. Cutler 11:21, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not scared of it, I dislike it. It's a feeble cliche. Virtually all politicians are "controversial." Adam 11:37, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's only "controversial" if you disagree with it. For instance, at the moment, it says that one of his controversial policies was opposition to Britain's entry to the EEC. There's nothing controversial about that. It may be against the tide of popular opinion, but it's not controversial.

[edit] The Pogo stick story

The Times of 1962 has a story of a press photographer going through a London square and spotting Enoch Powell, the Minister of Education, bouncing around on a pogo stick. Anyone care to investigate further?

It's well known and reproduced in several biographies. (He was promoting a keep-fit campaign.) There was even a website a few years ago devoted to trying to find pictures of modern politicians doing similar stuff. Timrollpickering 17:34, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Certainly a bizarre image even if not seen.

It can be seen on the front page of Statesman or Skatesman?. Timrollpickering 22:12, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)


This link is non-functional 16 September 2005: would like to see it. Perhaps pogo-sticking and other interesting means of locomotion should be encouraged among present day politicians should be encouraged - might get the voters interested :)

Try this link to a version saved on the Internet Archive. --Spondoolicks 15:23, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Link here [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.179.225.229 (talk) 23:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "He was a staunch monetarist"

I'm not sure that there was such a thing as monetarism in the 1950s and even if there were, I'm not convinced that it was possible to be a staunch champion thereof. Nobody doubts Powell's free market credentials but to burden him with the baggage of a discredited fiscal strategy of the 1980s seems partisan. Any views? Cutler 02:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he was, but they called it deflationism in those days. See the Roth book. Woblosch 15:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
That pompous ass, Heffer, would have us believe Powell invented the whole bloody thing and handed it to Thatcher with a cherry on the top. As usual, the old coot is trying too hard. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"Although a strong monetarist, his views were often socially relaxed. He voted for relaxed divorce laws in 1965 on the grounds that two unhappy people should not be forced to maintain their unhappy state. He also voted for relaxed abortion laws, claiming that such actions are on the conscience of the individual, not the government."

This paragraph could do with improvement. I don't see what monetarism has to do with anyone's social views.

[edit] Conversion to Anglicanism

Should it be mentioned that he converted from atheism to Anglicanism? http://www.nndb.com/people/382/000095097/ Homagetocatalonia 22:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thatcher an Atlanticist?

'analysis was taken seriously by the Atlanticist Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher' was Margaret Thatcher really an Atlanticist? Mdecker london 06:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The article on Atlanticism gives this definition: Atlanticism is a philosophy of cooperation among European and North American nations regarding political, economic, and defense issues. One who believes in Atlanticism is known as an Atlantist or an Atlanticist. I'd certainly say definitely she was an Atlanticist.--Johnbull 15:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I've never heard of Thatcher's attempt to get Gorbachev to halt German reunification. Please could we have a citation to back this up.

NBeddoe 14:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

No cites forthcoming, so I removed that sentence.-Wikianon (talk) 11:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "a right-wing politician"

I took out the phrase "right-wing" in the opening sentence because it is not very objective. Powell was far from being a standard, penny-in-the-slot right-wing Tory. He was certainly on the right in economic terms (as demonstrated when he resigned in Jan 1958 with Thorneycroft and Birch over monetary policy). But his views on homosexual law reform, on the death penalty, on empire (once India was lost), and on nuclear weapons and Britain's defence needs generally, were all pretty much the opposite of what one would expect from a right-wing politician. These aspects are reasonably well explained in the body of the article, so readers can make up their own minds about whether or not he can be called right-wing. Woblosch 10:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Epbadge2.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Epbadge.jpg

Image:Epbadge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Epbadge2.jpg

Image:Epbadge2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 23:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Epbadge.jpg

Image:Epbadge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 23:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited Trivia moved

from article to Talk, here:-Wikianon (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The practice of moving trivia sections to the talk page was abandoned some time ago, as was their complete removal. Please see WP:Trivia sections. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:12, 31 Dec 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

I've rearranged text into a chronological order as per every other article on UK politicians. I've removed a lot of unsourced text too.--Johnbull (talk) 22:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

The criticism section is basically collection of refutations of criticism of Powell, all of them unsourced and voiced as Wikipedia. 141.151.238.72 (talk) 00:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I do see it as being ridiculously long and a collection of statements, which is what it shouldn't be. I know very little of this guy, so if you would, you can edit it, jsut as long as it isn't biased. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)