Talk:Enigma Variations

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To Hyacinth and others: I think the assertion that "the theme all the variations are based on is never heard. Instead, the piece starts straight away with the first variation" is a little confusing.

Yes, Elgar's enigmatic hidden theme, the one he wrote about, is never heard. However, the piece itself does start with the G minor exposition and, although it's been years since I saw the score, I think it is labeled as the theme. It certainly has that function, and it clearly separate from CAE.

So, if you are distinguishing "the first variation" from "variation 1", it's strictly true, but a little confusing? Does anyone agree this should be reworded, or am I missing some point?

(how does this work - do the contributors get email? I'm new to this thing). --David 01:01, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Enigma theories

I boldly rebalanced the discussion of the enigma - I believe the last edit came across too much as a campaign in favor of one particular theory (the never never theory), dominating the section and unbalancing the entire article. For my own part ISTR Neville Cardus was told the secret before Elgar died, and his reaction made me think it isn't as simple as another "tune". David Brooks 05:24, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm a firm believer in the "never, never, never" theory, but that doesn't mean it necessarily was what Elgar had in mind (even if the evidence, to me, seems overwhelming). I guess what goes for an article in a music journal, where the author is pushing a particular point of view, does not necessarily go for Wikipedia. What was Cardus's reaction, by the way? (ISTR = I seem to remember?) JackofOz 05:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be fair to put a reference to any online discussion of the Van Houten article in the References section (I guess the article itself is not online). The "coincidence" about the drumroll and pennies is just wrong; the idea to use coins came first from Henderson at the first performance, and I think he used sovereigns. On Cardus - I confused him with Newman. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A805303: Elgar said something on his deathbed that the Newman swore he would never repeat, but that it was an unexpected illumination of the Enigma. David Brooks 16:25, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Could you illuminate me about the "drumroll and pennies" matter. I've never heard of it. The only "penny" connection I knew about was the one I mentioned in an earlier edit (now deleted), about Dora Penny who, Elgar said, "of all people" should have guessed the enigma. Then the connection was made with the British penny (coin) that had an effigy of Britannia (cf. "Rule, Britannia") on it. JackofOz 23:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Since you asked... The commonly told story is that the original timpanist, Charles Henderson, pointed out that it is impossible to switch from side drum sticks to naturale without a break, as called for in the score. Henderson had the bright idea of holding a penny in each hand, between two fingers (these are the big pre-decimal pennies, of course). And that this tradition continued ever since. So, even with this version of the story, it wasn't Elgar's idea. Van Houten just put together the words "Penny - Britannia" in an vague, misdirected attempt to justify his theory, but thereby damaged it in my mind.
Anyway there are several problems with that story. First, according to a first-person account passed on by Jimmy Blades, Henderson used sovereigns, not pennies, because Elgar decided he didn't like the sound of side drum sticks after all, and not specifically because of the performer's problem. This confirms that, at best, Elgar was making a post-hoc connection with Dora's name; coins were not in his initial intention. Also, as it happens, it is playable as written. I can play it perfectly well with a creative grip on two sticks and a mallet, which I find much more manageable than those damned coins! Not all timpanists today use coins (despite this story of Elgar's preferring them); for example the Boston Symphony Orchestra uses a second player with side drum sticks on a spare drum. I've heard that another conductor has asked for a chain to be put on the drum to make it rattle, and MTT (possibly confusing the story) asked an acquaintance of mine to put the coin on the drumhead. David Brooks 00:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for that. It all sounds pretty improbable and post-hoc to me too. Unlike the "Rule Brittannia/Never, never/Dora Penny/Britannia" theory which has always resonated strongly with me. Cheers JackofOz 01:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm a civilian and I know nothing about classical music, but I find this discussion interesting. What effect does "holding a penny in each hand, between two fingers" have? How does it make it easier to play the piece? Lupine Proletariat 11:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Elgar asked for a timpani roll played with wooden sticks (invoking the sound of a ship's engines), followed immediately by notes played with normal felt sticks, which many players deem impossible (I disagree). The solution was to hold coins between your fingers and rattle them on the heads, while holding the felt sticks at the ready (I can't) and produce much the same sound (it doesn't). Oh dear, was that a POV? :-) Some claim that Elgar came to prefer the coins anyway. David Brooks 18:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I recently took part in a performance of this piece. Our timpanist's solution was to place coins on the heads while hitting the heads with felt sticks, so that the coins rattled on their own.Kazuo Ishiguro (talk) 21:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seventh notes?

Anon 65.247.226.93 wrote "although Elgar's use of accented seventh notes would have been a decidedly nineteenth-century adaptation". Not sure what this means - presumably it's referring to the descending minor seventh intervals, but they don't seem particularly accented to me. Can the anon, or someone else, clarify? There aren't any "seventh notes" (there aren't even any septuplets). David Brooks 18:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm betting you're right -- that Anon was referring to the descending sevenths. Elgar himself said these sevenths were important, if memory serves. But they have no accent marks in my Dover facsimile of the Novello orchestral score.Herbivore 02:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The GRS variation

The very brief lines in the main article miss a great deal, I think. The whole Dan-the-bulldog bit only really occurs in the first five measures...what does one say about the rest of the variation? To me, it clearly depicts an organist. Listen to the bass-line statement of the theme: sure, it could be Dan paddling in the river but it also sure sounds like an organist playing the pedals. Then when the brass come in a moment later with the theme again, it sure sounds to me like an organist using the full organ with solo reeds. GRS was also a rather forceful, exuberant personality as I recall. Wspencer11 16:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always had the same reaction. But I've never seen it mentioned in print, so it probably counts as original research :-( David Brooks 17:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe the Ian Parrott book on Elgar mentions this; I wrote a large research paper ages ago on the Variations and the puzzles therein and feel pretty confident I didn't think this up all by myself. Wspencer11 18:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, now I've run the variation in my head, I only thought of the last few measures (the brass chorus) as the explicit organ reference. But now I see your point about the pedals. Of course, Elgar was capable of referring to two things at once. David Brooks 18:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Dan is marked in EE's hand in the MSS, where he barks on emerging from his dip in the Wye, but Sinclair and his energy are certainly there too - some including me hear the Bach organ pedal exercise echoed. --Straw Cat 01:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genesis of the work

As I recall, Elgar himself told the story of the tiring day of teaching, of how he played the theme "aided by a cigar" (though his word order was a little ambiguous...I have always wondered if the cigar aided his teaching or his playing of the theme [!]), and then improvising sketches of his friends and associates using the theme. If someone can confirm that then I think the current vague non-attribution should be eliminated in favor of a stronger stateement to this effect. Yea/nay? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 14:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have this citation somewhere & will post it here, assuming I can dig it up.... Herbivore 19:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical speculation

I dunno, the latest addition to the page seems a bit far-fetched to me. Should it be reverted and discussed here first? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 04:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

It's curious and interesting. Problem is, it seems to be the opinion of one or more Wikipedia editors, not that of an independent author whose work we're citing. Thus, it's original research and therefore out of bounds for our articles. It should be removed unless we can find an external reference for it. -- JackofOz 07:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I am relocating my entry regarding the Pi theory to this area as JackofOz suggested. I hope to get it published in a Journal later this year. Since this is a better place for new theories to start, I offer the following Pi theory.

In 2007, a new theory was revealed on public radio's "Performance Today." Elgar dedicated his Enigma Variations to "My Friends Pictured Within." As a "variation" of this, Elgar could have written, "To My Circle of Friends." In mathematics, characteristics of all circles are related by a universal constant, Pi. A common approximation of Pi is 22/7, which equals 3.142857. When the first four numbers of Pi, 3-1-4-2, are played on a musical scale, with 1 being the root, 3 being the third, etc., we hear the opening Theme of his Enigma Variations. Elgar's first four notes are a cipher for Pi.

Sir Edward enjoyed jokes and ciphers, both of which are involved in his "Enigma." The "dark saying" could be a clever reference to the line from the very familiar English nursery rhyme, "Four and twenty BLACKbirds baked in a pie/Pi." Blackbirds are certainly dark, and the pun based on Pi is an unmistakable hint.

Pi could easily be described as "the chief character (who) is never on the stage." This 3-1-4-2 theme is the basis for all of the variations and is heard many times throughout the piece, but Pi itself is hidden.

Sir Edward's clue in 1929 was one more reference to Pi. After referring to the opening crotchets and quavers (eleven quarter notes and eighth notes), Sir Edward advises, "the drop of the seventh in the Theme (bars 3 and 4) should be observed." After the first eleven notes there are two drops of a seventh. In other words, 11 notes x 2/7 = 22/7 = the common approximation of Pi. This clue is not addressed by any previous theory.

Sir Edward, speaking of the Enigma, told Dora Penny in 1899, "It is so well known that it is extraordinary that no one has spotted it." Pi is universally taught as part of primary education and it is "very well known." Many of the previous theories are quite complex.

In two separate letters written to Dora in 1901, Sir Edward used the first four notes of the Enigma Variations as his signature, giving Dora an extra clue. Sir Edward then told Dora, "I thought that you of all people would guess it." These first four notes, the Enigma Theme, are a simple four-character cipher for Pi, the numbers 3-1-4-2. That is why he thought Dora, of all people, would guess it.Dnlsanta 02:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting--fascinating, actually--and if you get it published in a peer-reviewed journal we can add it to the proposed theories. I had thought that the "Rule Britannia" theory had been winning out over the others in recent years; I heard a very convincing lecture-demonstration on it on NPR (US) some years ago. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 03:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, very fascinating—something the world may have wished it knew 100 years ago? —  $PЯINGrαgђ  03:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I know it is trivial, but quite a coincidence that the posting time of the previous entry "is" Pi, 3:14. Maybe Sir Edward is watching us and trying to give us one more clue. Ha Ha. Dnlsanta 00:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

No actually it is my mind control which is slowly taking over the whole musical world. Muahahaha! :P —  $PЯINGrαgђ  00:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that Elgar might be having the last laugh. It's possible that he combined two enigmas in one, and everybody has been searching for a single key all these years when the solution is two-fold. Dnlsanta's theory is the most interesting new one I've heard in a long time, and it bears further discussion out there in the external world of Elgariana (or Enigmiana). Once it gets reported in a reputable publication, then we can include it in our article. Not until then, though. The two-fold proposition, yet to be conclusively proven, is that "Rule Britannia" and the Pi theory both fit all the clues. These include not just the fact that Britannia was on the penny - the shape of which was of course circular - but also that Dora Penny was mathematically inclined. It's a whole gestalt of clues, not just one or the other in isolation. Maybe Elgar is also alluding to the fact that one can try as they might to enumerate all the digits of Pi but will never, never, never get to the end because it's a transcendental number. What an ingenious mind this man must have had. So, if this theory holds water:
  • Pi, whose digits never, never, never end, connects to circles
  • circles connect to the shape of the penny
  • the penny connects to both Britannia and Dora Penny
  • Britannia connects to "Rule Britannia"
  • "Rule Britannia" brings up "never, never, never" again
  • Dora Penny connects to mathematics and, in particular, Pi
  • and round and round we go. :)-
The only stumbling block I can see is that the number 3.142857 (= 22/7), on which the theory hangs, is only a very rough approximation of Pi; a more exact value is 3.1415926535. So, it's not certain that his reference is to Pi at all, but merely to the fraction 22/7. But that makes it a much less evocative theory, and 22/7 has no intrinsic connection to circles (of friends, or anything else). On the other hand, the actual value of Pi rounded to 3 decimal places is still 3.142.
On a side note, I once read a theory that Elgar must have been the reincarnation of Robert Schumann, who died less than a year before Elgar was born, and who was also extremely taken by puzzles and ciphers. I rather think this theory will be much harder to prove. But who knows! Are there any Schumann quotes in the Enigma Variations? -- JackofOz 01:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that unfortunately, using these sloppy, untestable methods of 'proof', one can 'prove' almost anything. Elgar could have written "Circle of friends" - but he didn't. There are dozens of nursery rhymes and poems which have 'dark' things in them: what is special about blackbirds? What has 'four and twenty' got to do with pi? Has pi really been a universal part of primary school education for the last century?? Every piece of music abounds in numerical values, and with enough mathematical ingenuity these values can be rearranged into almost any form a person wants. The "derivation" of 22/7 is simply numerological mystification. Why exactly should one multiply 11 by 2 and then divide by 7, rather than any other set of operations on these three numbers? The decimal expansion that goes on for ever begins 3.14159, but the rounding is 3.142: you can't have it both ways, at least considering a melody where you have to choose either '1' or '2'. --Tdent (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Schumann certainly had a very large brain, didn't he? B-) I should listen to my recording of the Variations (with Elgar himself conducting) and see. —  $PЯINGrαgђ  04:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

How does the "Never, Never" theory relate to Sir Edward's 1929 clue about, "the opening crotchets and quavers" (eleven quarter notes and eighth notes) and "the drop of the seventh in the Theme (bars 3 and 4) should be observed."  ?????? 70.238.206.243 12:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The Pi theory seems interesting to me, and I don't understand why we can't post it in the article already. We could just make clear that it is a recent theory that is being submitted for formal review. If you want a reference, you could cite the Performance today interview. It seems on par with the other theories in the article, in that none of them are really proven yet, and most of them don't even have citations themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.250.73 (talk) 23:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)