Talk:English personal pronouns

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[edit] Dialect

"you guys"? Really? Which dialect is this? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

They say it in Iowa Maestro tomas 19:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Throughout the Midwestern U.S., really. Ruakh 13:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Midwest. I, an Ohioan, use it regularly. ChaosMaster 23:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More material to add

The following table and text were originally in the article on pronouns. I think they're more appropriate for this page, since they deal specifically with English, but it needs to be combined with the table that already exists. FilipeS 13:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The English personal pronouns including nonstandard ones and related pronouns and determiners are shown below. Reflexive pronouns are used as the object of a sentence when the subject and object match. Possessive pronouns are used to show ownership. The possessive determiners are more commonly treated as the genitive pronouns, but that analysis doesn't reflect real usage, since his, her, etc. don't substitute a noun or noun phrase.

personal pronoun possessive
pronoun		 possessive
determiner
nominative accusative reflexive
first-person singular I me myself mine my
plural we us ourselves
ourself 1		 ours our
second-person singular standard you you yourself yours your
archaic thou 2 thee thyself thine thy
plural standard you you yourselves 3 yours your
archaic ye 4 you yourselves yours your
nonstandard you guys
you all
y'all
youse
youse guys
you-uns		 you guys
you all
y'all
youse
youse guys
you-uns
yous
yis
 yourselves
y'all's selves		 yours
y'all's
yous's		 your
y'all's
third-person singular masculine he him himself his his
feminine she her herself hers her
neuter it it itself its its
plural they 5 them themselves theirs their
  1. Ourself is used when we is actually singular as in the royal we, the editorial we, and the nurse's we, e.g. "We seem a bit displeased with ourself, don't we?"
  2. Sometime between 1600 and 1800, the various forms of thou began to pass out of common usage in most places, except in poetry, archaic-style literature, and descriptions of other languages' pronouns. Thou refers to one person who is familiar, though as in other European languages, it is also used of God. Thou still exists in northern England and Scotland, and in some Christian religious communities. See also thou.
  3. The only common distinction between singular and plural you is in the reflexive and emphatic forms.
  4. In Scotland, yous is often used for the second person plural (particularly in the Central Belt area). However, in some parts of the country, ye is used for the plural you. In older times and in some other places today, ye is the nominative case and you is the accusative case. Some English dialects generalised ye, while standard English generalised you. Some dialects use ye as a clipped or clitic form of you.
  5. Although using singular they when sex is not known or is not important is often condemned by traditionalists, it is often found in informal speech. In fact, it is a revival of an earlier usage and may one day become standard usage because it is so common; it also avoids awkward constructions like "he or she". This usage is authorised and preferred by the Australian Government Manual of Style for official usage in government documents.

English regional dialects sometimes use variant pronouns.

I think that this table would be an excellent addition to the page. If it is added or replaces the existing one, consider putting the archaic forms in italics.--A12n 16:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Singular "they"

I note the above comment re singular they. I would like to see the main article amended to reflect this but do not consider myself competent to edit this article. (Not that that has always held me back before elsewhere at WP!) Paul Beardsell 01:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. :-) FilipeS 22:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One?

I know it's out of current usage (but so are thou and thee), but why is there no mention of the gender neutral 3rd person pronoun "one"?

eg "One should aim to eat 5 portions of fruit and vegetable's per day." or "Buying a house is often the greatest financial commitment in one's life."

There's also the related pronoun, "oneself" - and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.

I don't feel competent to accurately add "one" and "oneself" to this article. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the subject can do it?

--204.104.55.241 12:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I am also not well qualified to analyze English usage, but it seems that pronoun "one" is relatively more legitimate in this article (and the useful table in it) than the archaic pronouns like "thee".
My brief web search indicates that American usage of "one" is considered quite formal, and there is some advice to avoid it. However, I did not see any claim that it is archaic or nonstandard.
In addition, as the separate article on One_(pronoun) mentions, its reputation as (overly) formal may have been counteracted in more recent (20) years as a valuable tool to more easily write Gender-neutral_language_in_English. Using pronoun "one" can help avoid writing awkward sentences or passive voice or using confusing gender switches in the third person.
Like the previous Talk poster, if I had more confidence I would have edited the article myself.
Vectorizer 14:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

"One" has a more restricted use than "he", "she" or "it", though, doesn't it? It's not just "gender-neutral", it's also generic. You can't speak that way of a specific person. FilipeS 15:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

Regarding the proposal to merge Modern English personal pronouns into this article: Support. —RuakhTALK 05:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I Support the proposed merger.—Jorge Padrón 17:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. FilipeS 16:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accusative?

Labeling the objective forms of personal pronouns as purely accusative seems odd to me. After all, in English, there is no distinction between the direct and indirect object other than placement in a sentence. The same pronouns are used whether they are in the accusative case or the dative case:

He met me. [Accusative]

He gave me the mail. [Dative]

I think the "Accusative" column should be re-labeled to either "Accusative/Dative" or (more correctly, IMHO) "Objective." Jorge Padrón 17:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Or "oblique". In my opinion, either term is suitable, as English makes no distinction between accusative and dative. FilipeS 21:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)