Talk:English Channel

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[edit] Main Image

Should the satellite image at the start of the article not say "Isle of Wight" instead of just "Wight"? As far is I'm aware, the former is the island's official name.

[edit] Box conflicting with text

I can see that the box with the Shakespeare quote in it is cutting into the text. Can someone fix this (I am new to editing)?

Also, to help others see what I'm seeing:

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=erroryc1.jpg
--Not Applicable 17:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I've left a note at Template talk:Quote box. If you want to Watch that page, you'll be able to chip in when necessary. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 23:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem, as shown in the screen capture link above, can most likely be fixed by adding a line break tag, e.g., <br>, <br clear=all>, <br clear=left>, or <br clear=right>. Try one of the examples to see what works. I added a <br clear=all> to Template talk:Quote box. See the "before" and "after" by viewing the editing history. —QuicksilverT @ 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Polder in the English Channel?

Did anyone ever propose to reclaim the land under the English Channel? A land-connection between France and the UK could be of huge significance. --Maccaroni 15:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, because it would financially ruin the country foolish enough to endeavor it. Besides, it would annoy the Dutch ;o).--MWAK 09:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid you are not able to do this, contrary to the Dutch ;)--Tom Meijer (talk) 21:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Moat that God built"

re: the "Moat that God built" comment -- this appears to be completely spurious. Google cannot find this text anywhere but in the earlier Wikipedia article. The only allusion I can find to a moat in Shakespeare is John of Gaunt's speech from Richard II:

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England...

But it is 'nature' not God that is described as creating the moat. I have removed the comment from the article. If anyone want to reinstate it, can they please provide a cite to show where Shakespeare uses the phrase?

Google search for "Moat that God Built"

[edit] Mixed Units

Is there any good reason why both miles and km are used as primary units in the same sentence, it doesn't read well... "It is about 350 miles (563km) long and at its widest is 240 km (150 miles)." I have changed the primary unit to kilometres for now, i.e. "It is about 560 km long (350 miles)...", although if someone has a good reason to make the primary unit miles I'm sure that'd work too! Matt Day 12:18, 22 May, 2004 (UTC)

Most likely because the article was edited at different times by an American and non-American. Some Americans still hang on to the forlorn notion that the world is using Imperial units, while the rest of the world, and U.S. industry, have long ago changed to SI units (Heh, heh!). In my opinion, Wikipedia articles should be written using metric units as the primary, and Imperial (parenthetically) as the secondary, if they're mentioned at all. —QuicksilverT @ 20:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

An enthusiastic German contributor has overwritten the entire entry. What's the process for creating 'other language' pages?--dgd

The English channel in Portuguese is known as "canal da Mancha" like in French, in Spanish... the same. and other languages too. Why the English people call it English Channel? Pedro 20:41, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Why shouldn't we call it the English Channel? I don't see why all languages should use identical terms. BTW, the Welsh call it Môr Udd. I'm not sure why-- I heard it was the corruption of the name of an ancient tribe. Marnanel 21:41, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
I've never eard of Welsh language. It's Strange. Normally translations are used. Is there a reason? Cause the channel could be called French Channel by the French.Pedro 22:47, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm sure the French could call it that if they wished; they don't really need to consult the English on the matter any more than the English needed to ask the opinions of French speakers before naming the channel. I don't really see what the problem is: it seems quite reasonable to me that different communities living on opposite sides of the same sea might pick differing names.
As to Welsh-- it has half a million speakers and a fairly active Wikipedia (http://cy.wikipedia.org ). Drop by sometime! Marnanel 01:13, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
And as far as the Welsh name for the English Channel is concerned, 'Môr Udd' is pronounced something like 'More Eeth' with 'th' as in 'there', not 'thank'. 'Môr' means 'sea' (cf Latin 'mare', French 'mer', English 'marine' and 'maritime') and 'Udd' means 'lord'. So an English translation of the Welsh name is 'The Lord's Sea'.
But I'm English and have only a smattering of Welsh. Maybe a Welsh-speaker out there can confirm, correct or amplify as necessary.
I'm curious about the Udd==lord part. The BBC's dictionary[1] doesn't know "udd" and translates "lord" as "arglwydd", which is the only word I've seen used in Welsh-- not that I'm anything of an expert. Marnanel 12:52, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
I've seen the Welsh wikipedia, the language is too obscure. is it widly spoken? Is the first-language of whom? Pedro 00:32, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
It's spoken to some degree by a little more than 20% of the population of Wales: that's about 600,000 people. Several hundred thousand of those speak it as a first language, I believe. All schools in Wales must teach it, and in many it's the primary language of instruction. There's a Welsh-language TV station and it has officially equal status with English in Wales. More information is at Welsh language. Marnanel 00:51, May 9, 2004 (UTC)
The Welsh language is not widely known because it had become essentially a dead language, with the exception of a few small rural communities before it was ressurected by a concerted Welsh nationalistic effort by legislation for bi-lingual schools and signs.Jameskeates 17:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It's Engelska Kanal or a variant in the Scandinavian languages, but Ärmelkanal or similar in other Germanic languages. The isogloss would appear to pass through the Channel, across Jutland and up the Baltic; the Russian is Ла-Манш, clearly a transliteration of the French. The Celtic languages all seem to have their own names; the Cornish is Chanel, similar to the Dutch Het Kanaal, but the Breton is Mor Breizh (Breton Sea?) So it's not purely a case of English chauvinism, likely as that might seem. EdC 14:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I have added a reference to Camden and to a 1450 map. Crococolana 14:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

  • In Kipling's house in Sussex there is a map of Europe on the wall and the EC is called the 'British Chanel'! It was made around 1900. I have heard this 'British' version elsewhere since then, and it seems it was used till the 1950s at least. Can we amend this section to reflect this?Malick78 18:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Here's a page where "British Channel" is used in an old map. It's used here and here too. I'll add it if no one minds, though some info of when we stopped calling it the GB Channel would be of interest if anyone knows. Malick78 (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Car transfer

Is there any automobile tunnel or any other transfer beneath the Channel? it seems there is only rail tunnel... --Monkbel 08:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it's just for trains (but the two governments might build one for road vehicles). It's... Thelb4! 17:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Le Shuttle is a drive-on, drive-off carriage service.

[edit] French name?

What does the French name "La Manche" directly translate to, in English? -- Mark 05:03, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

From what I've been able to find out, the French name "La Manche" translates as "the sleeve" in English – AxSkov (T) 06:39, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Based on the shape of a medieval sleeve. AnonMoos 03:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pas de Calais and kilometres

AxSkov has removed the French name 'Pas de Calais' claiming it does not belong here, but surely the French name for an important part of the English Channel 'shared' between Britain and France is really very relevant. Readers might want to know this information about the Channel!
And I don't understand the rationale for changing the SI abbreviation for kilometres (km) to the full word, while leaving the abbreviation mi for miles. Don't we normally use 'km' in Wikipedia articles? I am restoring these changes but leaving the other edits AxSkov made. Chris Jefferies 09:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The French name is not relevant to this article and so does not belong here. It belongs on the Strait of Dover article, and if anyone wants to know the French name they can click on the Strait of Dover link. The Strait of Dover article doesn't use "La Manche" for English Channel, as it is not relevent there either. – AxSkov (T) 09:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

That seems quite a strong opinion. What do others think about this? What is the balance of opinion amongst editors of this article? Chris Jefferies 11:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I added after the mention of the Strait of Dover in the intro paragraph that it's Pas de Calais to the French. It's silly to say it's "not relevant" especially because the term is commonly used; I know the term myself and can't read French at all. Tempshill 20:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Rubbish, its not relevant to this article, Strait of Dover yes, English Channel, no. The French version is definitely NOT commonly used in English. I agree with AxSkov, if someone wants to know the French version then they can click on the Strait of Dover link to find out. Mark 04:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
As an idle UK reader I was interested to see what the French called it, so I'd vote to keep that statement if it came down to it ( I shall not, however, be watching this page). --bodnotbod 20:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I was of the understanding that while Pas de Calais is commonly used in English, it refers predominantly to the department (in the context of holidays etc.), rather than the strait itself. EdC 14:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I have heard Pas de Calais in English but didn't understand it to mean the Strait of Dover, more the immmediate coastal area around Calais.

[edit] Narrowest part of the channel

Can someone establish where the channel is at its narrowest, is it:

– AxSkov (T) 11:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Prehistoric geography of the channel

Over on Talk:Human migration it's claimed that, as implied here, the Channel was not only walkable, but probably farmable. Would be nice to include some discussion of when this was the case exactly, and what's been found on the floor of the Channel, if anything. Any farmhouses down there for sale? Tempshill 19:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Exact limits of the Channel

Officially, as far as the French are concerned, The English Channel ends at Cap Gris-Nez, which would tend to put the "Channel Tunnel" in the North Sea. Does anyone have any certain info concerning the limits on the English coastline?

[edit] See alsos

I've taken out automatic and English Canal from the see alsos because I can't see why they are relevant. If I'm missing something then don't hesitate to put them back. Mucky Duck 09:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French Name

Why is this mentioned? Yes the french don't like the English name but have had no part in defining the English language. Can anyone come up with a reference using the French term or its English translation use in normal language? josh (talk) 22:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Danube mentions the local name of the river in the states it flows through; as do Rhine, Elbe, Oder River and probably others. Mediterranean Sea gives some local names; as do Baltic Sea, Archipelago Sea, North Sea and so on. The Manche name is used by some cross-border bodies: University of the Transmanche, Transmanche Ferries, and widely used to refer to the Cross-Channel Euroregion. I really can't see a problem. Man vyi 06:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Walliams

Is David Walliams' crossing really of encyclopaedaic importance? Worthy as the charity is is it it appropriate to advertise it here? Gerry Lynch 11:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I question it too. Widefox 22:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table

I think that the big table about notable channel crossings looks not so good. I would suggest writing it as an article section instead of a table? Anyone agrees? --¿¡Exir Kamalabadi?!Join Esperanza! 13:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fastest ever crossing by any vessel

I can't find any information on Google about the fastest crossing in a speedboat. I would guess a time of about 15 minutes. Anthony717 17:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archaeology (Shipwrecks)

I've just watched a programme called "Journeys to the Bottom of the Sea: The Mystery of the M1" which stated that the English Channel has more shipwrecks per square mile than any other body of water. Can anyone find a source to support this statement so we can add it to the article? Ninja-lewis 18:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's probably comforting to know that if you are shipwrecked there you have a good chance of being preserved for archaeology! I remember one museum saying there were 250,000 wrecks around the UK coast ..and a very fine collection on the Goodwin sands. I don't know if there is any better academic source http://www.ryemuseum.co.uk/shipwrec.htm

JRPG 23:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The authority on wrecks is the Wrecks Office of the UK Hydrographic Office. Given that they quote over 70,000 wrecks in their database, which extends beyond the UK, 250,000 seems hopefull. http://www.admiraltyleisure.co.uk/diveSite.asp --GraemePotter 19:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that hopeful is the right word! The museum concerned was in Cornwall and was called something like the Shipwreck museum but it seems to have disappeared. Unfortunately the reasoning behind the estimate wasn't given but I assume it is an estimate of all wrecks over a period of at least 3 millenia. http://www.shipwrecks.uk.com/info3.htm is trying to produce a complete index of known wrecks at a cost. JRPG (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The swimming section...

...is a mess:

  • There's no explanation of why the Channel Swimming Association was dissolved in 1999 and replaced by the two new bodies;
  • There's inconsistent capitalisation in phrases such as "Channel Swimming". I can't see why the word "Swim[ming]" should be capitalised other than in names of organisations, any more than "Cross-Country Running" would be correct;
  • It's mentioned that the "King of the Channel" title is disputed, but then we get "The "King of the Channel" title is held by Kevin Murphy..." with no qualification;
  • The last part, giving the various totals, is very unclear and for example does not explain what "ratified" means (by whom? When? Who accepts this?)
  • For goodness' sake put in some subsection headings!

And so on and so forth... 81.153.110.14 04:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, to be brief: The original Channel Swimming Association split, with much acrimony (too much to go into detail here), into the CSA ltd and CSPF ltd in 1999, with long standing members of the original body founding both movements. Both are ratified by the British and World swimming governing bodies (ASA and FINA) and are able to authenticate channel crossings, a point that the CSA for reasons known only to itself has continued to ignore, actually refusing to recognise CSPF swims, despite every other official body (including the Guiness book of records) recognising both bodies. Hence the 'dispute'. A good analogy would be the Football League refusing to recognise the Premiership and stubbornly declaring that Sunderland, not Manchester United were the English football champions! Both organisations operate to virtually identical rules, upholding the traditions of channel swimming but seem to be unable to agree, however the CSPF will recognise all CSA swims as valid. The fact that the CSPF is the larger organisation, with the most sucessful male and female swimmers of all time serving in their ranks gives them the slightly higher profile and status. The CSA has often been accused of operating as a 'closed shop', and reportedly offer little real help until one is a fully paid up member. The CSPF have gained great credit due to help and advice freely given, and hold free training camps all summer in Dover, welcoming swimmers of both bodies, and those world wide

I wonder whether given remarks by Widefox, Exir Kamalabadi and others if the consensus is that the Channel Swimming section would be better in Swimming with just a link from here. This particularly applies if the section needs further expansion. Logically people interested in Channel swimming are more likely to be interested in other aspects of swimming than in Channel geology whilst UK defence historians will take no comfort whatsoever in the fact that the Channel can be swum in ever faster times!! JRPG 20:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a new record. I don't know who did it but I think it should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.64.150 (talk) 08:09, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] St. Helier population

that list of populations seems rather bizarre to me. Where does the '48,997 inhabitants in St.Helier' figure come from? The actual St.Helier article gives it somewhere around the 20,000 mark. Also, why is Guernsey not there? It seems completely arbitrary.

I agree. Listing the populations of major English cities is likely to fail due to frequent boundaries changes. Where does Portsmouth or Southampton begin and end? Surely it is adequate just to say the 10 largest cities are ..and then provide a link. I note User:MacRusgail is a contributor to this section and maybe he has more experience of this than we have. I'll ask him for his comments. JRPG 20:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact limits of the Channel 2

Could anyone specify where the Channel ends? As someone asked above, is it at Cap Gris Nez that the North Sea starts? --Hooiwind 14:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Hooiwind, given the recent addition to the geography section, the North sea stopped at the Cap Gris Nez-Dover chalk dam which formed the land bridge to Europe, it seems even more logical to say that that is the boundary though of course, Dover Straits TSS traffic is monitored over a much greater range, see shipping. I would expect some academic to define the other end at some point, possibly as the Atlantic shore before the land bridge collapsed but Lands End-Ushant will do for now. On that basis I've moved a few battles(!) from the Channel into the North Sea. JRPG 21:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


The authority is the International Hydrographic Office S-23 Limits of Oceans and Seas http://www.iho.shom.fr

On the west - From the coast of Brittany Westward along the parallel (48 deg 28 min N) of the East extreme of Ushant (Ledenes), through this island to West extreme thereof (Pointe de Pern), thence to Bishop Rock, the Southwest extreme of the Scilly Isles, and on a line passing to the Westward of these Isles as far as the North extreme (Lion Rock) and thence Eastwards to the Longships (50 deg 04 min N) and on to Lands End.

On the east - The Southwestern limit of the North Sea. Which is defined as - A line joining the Walde Lighthouse (France, 1 deg 55 min E) and Leathercoat Point (England, 51 deg 10 min N).

--GraemePotter 20:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shipping section needs work

"Accidents will happen. A combination of radar difficulties in monitoring areas near cliffs, a failure of a CCTV system, incorrect operation of the anchor, the inability of the crew to follow standard procedures of using a GPS to provide early warning of the ship dragging the anchor and reluctance to admit the mistake and start the engine led to the MV Willy running aground in Cawsand bay, Cornwall in January 2002. The Marine Accident Investigation Branch report makes it clear that the harbour controllers were actually informed of impending disaster by shore observers even before the crew were themselves aware! The village of Kingsand was evacuated for 3 days due to very serious risk of explosion and the ship was stranded for 11 days."

Poor POV. Also the next part about swimming shouldn't belong under shipping, it should be under the Swimming section.71.202.212.85 10:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I wrote this section and welcome any suggestions to improve it. The objective was to provide a numeric description, a description of how shipping controlled and an indication that it is still quite a hazardous waterway. I didn't mention the problems they have with rogue vessels going the wrong way in the shipping lanes. I don't understand the comment about "poor POV". MV Willy was merely one of the more startling accidents. Feel free to email me or make further suggestions on how it can be improved. JRPG (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youngest ever?

The youngest ever swimmer, age 15 in 1972, seems to conflict with the story of Leonore Modell, who appeared on I've Got A Secret in 1964 and had become the youngest person to have done it at age 14. This episode just aired. A little web searching finds a number of notes about her doing so. Fact conflict? TheHYPO (talk) 01:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Petty bickering

>>The titles "King" and "Queen" of the Channel [...] are taken seriously by the swimming community and there has been some controversy over the childish refusal by some to recognise others' swims.

>>The righful "King of the Channel" title was conferred by the CSPF on Kevin Murphy (34 crossings, including three doubles) and then dubiously by the CSA on Michael Read (with 33 crossings of the English Channel authenticated by the CSA.[neutrality disputed]


This kind of crap has no place on wikipedia. Obviously CSA proponents are going to call the CSPF declaration dubious. There is no citation indicating dubiousity on either side and this is clearly some whiner's opinion [I should note that I neither know nor care about either side of the argument]. TheHYPO (talk) 01:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Isle of Thanet

The Isle of Thanet wikipedia page seems to suggest that the English Channel was formed in 6500 BC. Could someone who knows about these things please correct it? Thanks.

84.71.229.192 (talk) 10:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic Sea

The Celtic Sea is not separated by Cornwall from the English Channel. The Celtic Sea stretches all the way to Brittany and abuts the Channel directly, forming its western border. Image:UK Radar1940.JPG sort-of shows this correctly. Image:Carte de la Manche.png is inaccurate and ought to be amended or removed. jnestorius(talk) 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)