Talk:English-language vowel changes before historic l

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[edit] From the old Talk:Salary-celery merger talk page

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 1 October 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

Many sentences in this article remind me of a post I originally made on this post. But I didn't actually write this article. (There's also a phrase that looks word-for-word from something by Brynmor Thomas who has published on the New Zealand merger.) Please don't do that again—ask first! —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 14:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Is the stereotype that Australians in other states without the merger often reverse /{l/ and /el/ true? 64.200.124.189 15:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other Vic-NZ shared features?

The article has just been changed to say that the salary/celery merger is one of few changes, rather than the only change, NZ and Vic have in common that the rest of Oz skips. What are the others? I can't think of any, but then, as a Victorian I mightn't notice them. Is this just a rewording to make the statement less absolute, rather than an actual acknowledgement of change? —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 04:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong symbol?

I'm 99% sure that the phonetic symbol that should be here is /ɛ/, not /e/, and am changing the article accordingly. 151.196.55.136 22:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Because the front vowels of Australian English are generally higher than those of British or American English, /e/ is standardly used. See Australian English phonology for discussion and references. --Angr (t·c) 22:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
There you go. That's 1% of doubt for you. Same goes for NZE ... actually more so for them. Jimp 22Dec05

[edit] From the old Talk:Foot-goose and full-fool mergers page

Rubbish! AusE foot is [fʊt] whilst AusE goose is [gʉs]. The distinction is both length & position. Jimp 21Dec05

You've misread it. It was talking about /ʉː/ before /l/, where for many Australians (at least) the position is nearly merged & length becomes the primary or only queue. I've clarified the para (I hope) and removed the dubious template. —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 13:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I see. Jimp 22Dec05

[edit] From Golf-gulf merger

I'm moving all this here in case it's deleted. User:Jimp 22Dec05 If it's decided that this should be kept then I suggest merging Golf-gulf merger here. Jimp 07:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article:Golf-gulf merger

The golf-gulf merger is a conditioned vowel merger that occurs in some varieties of Australian English that causes /ɐl/ as in gull to merger with /ɔl/ as in doll when it occurs before a consonant, making gulf and golf homophones, that occurs in some variaties of Australian English. The merger does not occur when /ɐl/ and /ɔl/ occur at the end of a word, so dull and doll are still distinct as [dɐl] and [dɔl], but golf and gulf are merged as [gɔlf]. In some other varieties of Australian English /ɐl/ before a consonant merges with /əʉl/ instead of /ɔl/ making 'culture' sound like coal-ture, but hull and hole are still distinct because the /ɐl/ and /əʉl/ occur at the end of a word rather than before a consonant.

An exception to both these mergers before a consonant sound is when the consonant sound occurs across a morpheme boundary, as in gulls, which usually remains being pronounced [gɐlz].

A similar but reverse merger occurs in some forms of New Zealand English, particularly in the North Island. In this, it is the sound /ɔ/ that is being lost, replaced by /ɐ/. It is notable in words like warrior, which in some instances is indistinguishable from worrier.

[edit] Talk:Golf-gulf merger

Are there any words besides gulf subject to this so-called merger? And can anyone provide published evidence of the existence of it? --Angr/tɔk tə mi 2 July 2005 20:06 (UTC)

Yes: multiply; pulse; bulk; culture (as the article says) etc. In general, any monomorphemic word with the sequence /ɐ/ + /l/ + consonant. No. — Felix the Cassowary 05:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Also cult and colt. I believe it's real. Felix and I both being Aussies have it. However, I don't have any published evidence on hand and without that I'd have to say it should perhaps go. Jimp 06:31, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] map

A map for comparing the fill-feel and full-foolmergers would be a greataddition to this article. Circeus 23:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yolk-Yoke Merger?

I've heard the word "yolk" both pronounced with the letter L in it and without, almost exactly like the word "yoke", but with a bit more lip-curling (I think that's it.. I haven't studied phonology too much), almost as if the lips were curling to form a W sound before the K.

I've also noticed some people pronouncing "poke" and "polka" similarly, as well as "folk."

I haven't found these items on Wikipedia and was wondering if they should be added someplace on this page.

This isn't really a merger. The "l" sound in "yolk", "polka" and "folk" was lost long ago. Some people may pronounced "yolk" with an "l" today, but that would be a spelling pronunciation. I've added a section about it at phonological history of English consonants. Voortle 23:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced Mention of Victorian Usage of Salary / Celery

From article: "The salary-celery merger is a conditioned merger of /æ/ (as in bat) and /e/ (as in bet) when they occur before /l/, thus making salary and celery homophones.[1][2][3]

This merger occurs in the English spoken in New Zealand and the Australian state of Victoria. "

There are no references for the latter statement in this article. I have deleted the statement. Please add a referenced version if you can find it.

Note also that reference 2 above is a 404.

It is too referenced at the end of the paragraph, ie, as by Cox & Palethorpe, 2003. 203.220.171.69 12:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have mentioned this issue and this external publication in this other discussion, and I have specified that Cox and Palethorpe's testing utilised just one group of Victorian speakers: 13 fifteen-year-old girls from the same school in Wangaratta. If we are going to use it as a reference in an article that makes claims about all of Victoria, it's fair to point out that this study tested just one homogenous group in one small regional area of Victoria, with no one in Melbourne or surrounding areas being tested. Asa01 23:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] salary-celery merger original research

This bit sounds a bit like original research to me: It is one of the very few features that New Zealand and Victoria share that the rest of Australia doesn't also share with New Zealand.

This article lays out what Cox and Palethorpe discovered. By this further synthesis of those findings seems like it is getting into murky OR territory. Asa01 00:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Los Angeles South Bay

This is definitely happening in Southern California. I've noticed it since starting to hang around with people from the South Bay (Torrance, Carson, etc.). I'll get the phonetic transcription soon, but for now I'll just say that they say "tal" instead of "tell"; "Hallen" instead of "Helen"; "allay" instead of "ellay" for "LA"; etc.

I haven't done any formal research, but I have a Masters degree in linguistics, so I know more or less what I'm talking about. Is anyone interested in studying this? Can anyone recommend what I should do to study it properly?

Forgot who I was. Jerry 15:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

This is California Vowel Shift. The lowering of (I'm using X-Sampa here) /E/ to /{/, especially after /l/ or dark-l /5/. Very common in SoCal actually. --190.0.133.177 (talk) 07:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "chulldren"

Should there be a mention somewhere of the seemingly ever more common pronunciation, in BrE at least, of the word children as "chulldren" (first syllable rhyming with "pull"). Listening to a radio documentary about education on the BBC some time ago I was struck by the number of contributors -- not least, the "child care professionals" -- using this pronunciation. Anyone know of any references to this phenomenon? -- Picapica (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)