Talk:England national rugby union team

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	England national rugby union team is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 20, 2007.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 2, 2007 Good article nominee Listed September 24, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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To-do list for England national rugby union team:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Fully summarise and reference history section Fully reference Twickenham section Delist records section Split history section into separate article, then summarise for this article. (do this once it's fully referenced) Wiki-link positions in current squad Delist notable players correctly format "current squad" section Expand overall, and World Cup records sections Create Six Nations record section Add images to history section England Tours

Contents 1 Template 2 Biased 3 Famous players 4 Current players 5 Notable Players 6 History section 7 Headings etc 8 Infobox 9 To do list 10 Overall results 11 History section 12 fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV / England national rugby union team 12.1 Top try scorer 12.2 fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV as a feautured article 12.3 training structure, centre 13 Entente Cordiale 14 Promoted to be a 'Good Article' 15 Rugby professionalism 16 Nominated for FAC 17 2003 World cup winning squad 18 Change colours 19 Kit Picture 20 The Rose 21 For mainpage on 20 October 2007? 22 POV taken to the extreme 23 Succession box discussion 24 Record verses 25 Tours 25.1 1963 England Tour of Australasia 25.2 1972 England Tour of South Africa 25.3 1973 England Tour of Oceania 25.4 1975 England Tour of Australia 25.5 1981 England Tour of Argentina 25.6 1984 England Tour of South Africa 25.7 1985 England Tour of New Zealand 25.8 1988 England Tour of Oceania 25.9 1989 England Tour of Romania 25.10 1990 England Tour of Argentina 25.11 1991 England Tour of Oceania 25.12 1994 England Tour of South Africa 25.13 1997 England Tour of Argentina and Australia 25.14 1998 England Tour of Australasia and South Africa 25.15 1999 England Tour of Australia 25.16 2000 England Tour of South Africa 25.17 2001 England Tour of North America 25.18 2002 England Tour of Argentina 25.19 2003 England Tour of Australasia 25.20 2004 England Tour of Australasia 25.21 2006 England Tour of Australia 25.22 2007 England Tour of South Africa 25.23 2008 England Tour of New Zealand 26 Record of Tours in Oceania 27 Record of Tours in South Africa 28 Record of Tours in Argentina 29 Summer Tours with Test Matches 30 First Match 31 Other Test Series 32 List of Unofficial Internationals 33 Box for Tours

[edit] Template

[edit] Biased

Isn't making this page a featured article today unfair to the South African team? Surely Wikipedia should be more neutral.

I think so too. If it wasn't planned this way, that's one hell of a coincidence... atychiphilia 17:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous players

Can we have some consenus on the "Famous players" issue? Personally I believe that previous entries have been 'top heavy' towards modern day players and we need to agree on which players from the 'modern period' have really influenced England as a team. In fact, I would suggest that "Famous players" is a misnomer and we should retitle it "Influencial players". What do you think?

RichardLowther 12:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Richard I would prefer that the text refers to famous players and places them in context rather than we include a long list. With lists you always get into a bind over criteria for inclusion and sometimes into rather silly edit wars! PaddyBriggs 18:20, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Paddy, I agree about including them in context within the article rather than at the end (that is what I have done with the Wakefield RFC page) but the problem I have to some extent, is to define Famous. If a player becames an England player does that make him Famous? Some would say so. We could get to the 'silly' situation where we end up with name checking a high percentage of players on those grounds (probably from the modern era because peoples interest/attention spans only go so far). That is why I suggested the 'Influencial' aspect, in the hope that we could focus more on players that have done something *extra* for England (and maybe the game in general) than just worn the white shirt.

RichardLowther 22:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that there should be some list of players that were noteable in some way. I agree that 'famous' is perhaps not an ideal word as few rugby players are geniunely famous outside their sport. I think 'noteable' is better than 'influential'.

I don't think there is any objective way of doing this. If you simply list players that were capped x number of times then you are biasing the list in favour of more modern times when more games are played. I think we'll just have to argue who was or was not important on a case by case basis.

The list is biased post-war but you are free to add in pre-war players that you can think of. The list is there to be edited.GordyB 22:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

If nobody posts again then I will add the list back in. While Paddy may have a point about a list in context. Until someone writes this there is no point not having a at least a list.GordyB 12:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Gordy, I have been trying to compile a list and reasons for inclusions on such and ensure that it is balanced across the ages. Harder than I thought, but it might give us a starting point for discussion. I will post on here when I finish it.

RichardLowther 15:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Happy to await Richard's list. But in principle I think that any list is likely to be problematic. For example have you heard of a scrum half called "J.Spencer", He played once in 1966 (I was there). He was incredibly famous, for about 15 minutes (match programme says that he "spends evenings weaving fashion fabrics on a hand-loom"...and..."lives in a converted air-raid shelter" (I kid you not!). Good story lost in the mists of time! PaddyBriggs 16:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Paddy - Is that the same J Spencer that played for Headingley and is now a RFU 'committee' man? I was hoping to refer to a book on England internationals to aide me in my list but I must have loaned it out. This means that it taking me longer than I hoped to compile the list. RichardLowther 17:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll wait for the list then.GordyB 20:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm adding the list back in as I feel that it is better that there is something even if it is imperfect than there is nothing. When the new list / section is finished then by all means replace it.GordyB 10:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

When the 6 nations is over I plan to change the current players section back to this. I'm just putting it here for safe keeping.GordyB 13:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Henry Monelle - Weston-super-Mare as an Elite player - I suspect some one is pulling someone's plonker! Richard Lowther NLI.82.38.211.251 22:59, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Oops didn't see that. The red lined Bristol players are also news to me but rather more plausable.GordyB 02:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current players

The 2005/06 elite squad is:

Stuart Abbott - Wasps Iain Balshaw - Leeds Tykes Olly Barkley - Bath Andy Beattie - Bath Duncan Bell - Bath Steve Borthwick - Bath George Chuter - Leicester Tigers Ben Cohen - Northampton Saints Martin Corry - Leicester Tigers Mark Cueto - Sale Sharks Matt Dawson - Wasps Louis Deacon - Leicester Tigers Harry Ellis - Leicester Tigers Andy Farrell - Saracens James Forrester - Gloucester Perry Freshwater - Perpignan Mark van Gisbergen - Wasps Andy Gomarsall - Worcester Will Greenwood - NEC Harlequins Danny Grewcock - Bath Andy Hazell - Gloucester Charlie Hodgson - Sale Sharks Chris Jones - Sale Sharks Ben Kay - Leicester Tigers Josh Lewsey - Wasps Lee Mears - Bath

Lewis Moody - Leicester Tigers Jamie Noon - Newcastle Falcons Tom Palmer - Leeds Tykes Phillip Peat - Bristol Rugby Luke Porter - Bristol Rugby Peter Richards - Gloucester Jason Robinson - Sale Sharks Graham Rowntree - Leicester Tigers Paul Sackey - Wasps Simon Shaw - London Wasps Andrew Sheridan - Sale Sharks James Simpson-Daniel - Gloucester Ollie Smith - Leicester Tigers Matt Stevens - Bath Mathew Tait - Newcastle Falcons Steve Thompson - Northampton Saints Mike Tindall - Gloucester Andy Titterrell - Sale Sharks Phil Vickery - Gloucester Tom Varndell - Leicester Tigers Tom Voyce - Wasps Harry Warman - Bristol Rugby Julian White - Leicester Tigers Jonny Wilkinson - Newcastle Falcons Joe Worsley - Wasps

</nowiki>

[edit] Notable Players

Although there has been a lot of discussion on 'famous players', I have removed all those on the notable list without a wiki article. I'm not going to argue what the criteria should be to be included on the list apart from that they need an article of reasonable quality. Any players who have acceptable articles created about them can be added to the list once thats done. - Shudda ^talk 01:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

They aren't likely to get articles written on them without a link on a major page. I created the list because the previous one was stated to be biased to post-WW2 players. Wikipedia suffers from a huge bias towards what is current with minor club players having articles but major figures not getting a mention.GordyB 05:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the change. Having a red-link is not criteria for not being a notable player. I very much agree with Gordy as well, without a link(s) from a major article, the player will have less of a chance of being created, and then if it is created, it gets that no links to this article template slappedd on it. I must say, I try to create as many footballer pages as is reasonable, including English players, but in all honesty, I would not know where to start without these notable player lists, which somewhat act as a guide for articles that need creating. I also agree with Gordy in that there is a huge bias towards modern players, there are some clubs/franchises that almost have their whole squad created, whereas there are numerous international captains that do not have articles.Cvene64 12:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that if a player is considered notable then they would have an article about them. Removing them from the list until there is an article on them is great motivation for people to create them. However someone unfamiliar with Englands RU team would probably find it interesting that players considered notable don't even have a short article on wikipedia. - 132.181.172.129 04:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not everybody knows how to create an article that isn't red-linked and having the link will act as a suggestion to create an article. If nobody else creates them then eventually I will do so but I have a list of things that I consider more urgent.GordyB 08:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That unsigned post was me above, I hate when i get automatically signed out of wikipedia! I think a better idea would be to move the red-linked names to the talk page until articles are written on them. Those that are contributing to this page and probably in the best position to create quality articles on those players anyway. - Shudda ^talk 23:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It still means a lower likelyhood of the pages being created. I don't see the problem with red links, there are lots of articles with red links. In any case the idea of a list of significant players shouldn't be dependent on there being an article, Carston Catcheside was a significant figure before I created an article on him yesterday.GordyB 12:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Red links are not actually a good look. If people want to create the article then they will probably do so regardless of whether their name is in this article. I'd like to know where someone was supposed to get the information for an article on one of those players if they only knew of them because of a red-linked name? There are many many notable players that could be included in the list, and as subjective as the list is it seems making the primary criteria for inclusion that an article (preferably of reasonable quality) on them exists is a fair one. If you looks at the All Blacks and Australia national rugby union team articles the list of notable players omits (bar 1 in the aussie article) players without articles. - Shudda ^talk 04:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge there is no requirement for articles not to have red links and as for info, it is perfectly simple to make a stub armed only with google. I've created lots of articles on players I've never heard of see Adrian Lungu.GordyB 12:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Could Someone please explain to me how "Jason Leonard OBE, also known as "The Fun Bus", appeared 118 times for England at prop", and yet "The most capped England player is former prop Jason Leonard who made 114 appearances over his 14-year career". So the most capped player played... 4 times less than Jason Leonard? This seems like an error, but I don't know my rugby so i don't want to just run in and correct it haphazardly. Tim 10:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone? Tim 16:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It was 114 - has been fixed. - Shudde ^talk 21:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

The history section here is very large. It needs to be referenced for sure, but I was thinking it be moved into a separate article? Say History of England national rugby team and the information in that main article summarised here? - Shudda ^talk 21:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This page is huge, probably too long for some computers. I don't think it needs to be referenced, because I can't see any massively contestable/dubious statements, and there are a bunch of external links. It would only need to be fully referenced if we want it to be a feature article. I mean sure, if people want to add them, thats a bonus, but yeah, it looks ok. Narrasawa 12:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

So you think a separate article is a good idea? Obviously a summarised history would need to be written by someone. As for the referencing, there is a reason that an article can't be FA without it. I think everything under project RU should be well referenced. The main reason is it's hard to verify anything without them, even if the statements aren't considered "contestable/dubious". I would try to reference as much as possible - Shudda ^talk 03:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Shudda, the history section used to be split, but no one was editing it/seemed to notice, so I moved it back. But I would agree to moving it again if other people think its a good idea. Might be a good idea for Wallabies as well, and maybe Springboks/All Blacks in the future. Cheers. Cvene64 12:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I think it's a good idea. A summary needs to be written first though. I may get around to it one day! - Shudda ^talk 22:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Swing Low Sweet Chariot was regularly sung at Twickenham in the mid 80s when England were spectacularly mediocre. The reference to a couple of school boys starting it is at best laughable.......... Dare I suggest someone on an ego trip has edited it????

Laughable or not, it is referenced and that is what counts. If you know different then find a reference and alter the article.GordyB 14:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I am going to try and summarise the history currently on the page. It can be found at my sandbox. Please feel free to help, once it's done I'm going to move the history currently here to a new article History of the England national rugby union team. Currently the history section (remember it's not at all fully referenced) is 40kb, which is bigger then recommended by WP:SIZE. So even the history section itself may need to be split off eventually. - Shudda ^talk 05:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I reduced the history section from 40kb to about 25kb. However it still needs to be summarised further. Please help with this, should probably aim for about half the current size. - Shudda ^talk 22:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headings etc

There is no need to bold headings, or capitalise subsequent words in the heading. "2007" ---- should not be under a sction that say "2007 fixtures/results" either. Cheers. Cvene64 06:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

In the process of getting All Blacks through FA, including the peer-review done before FAC, there was a consensus reached that the recent fixtures and upcoming fixtures list would be removed. They aren't appropriate in any of the articles, and I've no idea who added them to all the national teams articles. However they should almost certainly be removed from this article as well. Another thing, doesn't the records and statistics section need cleaning up? This article seems to be so heavily weighed down with unnecessary lists! - Shudda ^talk 10:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Shouldn't the InfoBox have a "last updated" date on it, especially with the Records Points Scored changing on a weekly basis? --Dave. 21:03, 17 February

[edit] To do list

I have created a to do list because this article has been getting a lot of contributions lately. It's looking much better then just a week ago. There is still a lot to do though, so please add any suggestions to the todo list. I'm using All Blacks as the standard to aim for for this article. - Shudda ^talk 02:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overall results

I've seen that some editors have added to the overall results table but without completing it or updating the date on there. now if the date is not updated when the rest is updated the table becomes out of sink and incorrect, so in future could anyone updating the Overall results table please add the date they edited it and if you do please edit the whole section (i.e updating the win % and overall win % aswell). Thank you. Noface1 19:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Is this huge section needed if we have the history page itself? I agree there should still be a section in this page but I don't think it shoulld be this long as it's almost the intire thing and to reduce this page was part of the point of creating the history page anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Noface1 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Agree, most articles dont have more than 10 lines when there is a main Jor70 20:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get this info from? Arsenal FC is an example where this is not true, and it's an FA. The history section needs to be summarised further, but that is no reason to delete it all! Rather then removing everything, please help summarise what is already there. It's a work in progress, so please do help. Eventually all the sub sections can be merged into one, but probably not yet. - Shudda ^talk 23:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Arsenal, Liverpool, etc have great main articles, extremely long. There are proportional to their respectives summaries. Here, lot of the info is simply duplicated. I said 10 lines before as an example (may be I exemplified too much ) on how the summary need to be. Perhaps a {{cleanup}} tag within the section would led to the people to help Jor70 00:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Help out. Summarise some of it yourself, many hands etc. A lot of the information will be duplicated, but that's because it's a summary. I don't think a cleanup tag is necessary. It's not a huge amount of work to get this done, so just help me out! :-) - Shudda ^talk 22:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed a reference to a non-existent extra fixture allegedly played by England in Dublin in 1972.

Exile 18:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV / England national rugby union team

Well I tried to look up information about a list of England national rugby union team notable former players with objective rules, its really hard to find. I need too a list of best top scorers ans a list of best tries scorer. I am looking for economic aspects of England national rugby union team : tv rights, coverture, how many english players in rugby union / football / cricket and other major sports in england...

Do you have some information to better english and french articles to do a featured article ?

Thanks a lot... Dd Ddfree 21:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If you are talking about how to construct an objective list of notable players I have a few ideas. With the All Blacks page I had the same problem. I decided that the best way was to have the notbale players list those that had been inducted into the International Rugby Hall of Fame, and maybe also those that had won the IRB player of the year award (although the latter makes the list favour more recent players, the former does not). Then in the record section have the major record holders for the team. So biggest point scorer, most capped player, most capped captain, biggest try scorer. Also maybe record holders at the RWC as well. By the time you add all the players that fit these categories it's a nice number of what I would consider notable players. Hopefully this is what you are asking? - Shudda ^talk 21:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, really...

1. An objective list of notable players

that's the good solution... International Rugby Hall of Fame, or biggest point scorer, most capped player, most capped captain, biggest try scorer. Or IRB player of the year award... ::That's what you do very well in All Black Notable Players: is it possible to do the same thing to better english article ?

2. A list of best top scorers ans a list of best tries scorer.

Have you got some information or can you add it in the article ? Have you got a source ? We could add a complementary article like Satistics and recors of All Blacks...

3. Economic aspects of England national rugby union team : tv rights, coverture,...

Have you got some information ? Have you got a source ?

4. Popularity of rugby union...

How many english players in rugby union / football / cricket and other major sports in england... ? Have you got some information ? Have you got a source ?

Dd Ddfree 06:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

These things are more appropriate at Rugby union in England.GordyB 18:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right for the third and fourth points, but if we want to have a featured article, it would be better... Dd Ddfree 20:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, yes I meant for 3 and 4 not 1 and 2 as well.GordyB 22:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I think point 3 may be appropriate with regards to the club vs country debate though. It seems to be a very serious and important topic for the England team. I agree however that the other issues may be more important at either the Rugby Football Union or Rugby union in England articles though. - Shudda ^talk 22:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Top try scorer

Anyone has the list (or the source) of try top scorer ? Please ? Dd Ddfree 17:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV as a feautured article

I think that fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV is able to be a featured article... Dd Ddfree 11:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] training structure, centre

Please, i don't have this information : have you got in England a structure like:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_national_du_rugby union rugby http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_technique_national_Fernand-Sastre football

?

And in this case, some source ?

Dd Ddfree 18:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Entente Cordiale

Nobody wants (or is able) to better this article in order to make a featured aricle... I hope that fr:Équipe d'Angleterre de rugby à XV will be a featured article... and it should be easier if the english article is better... And it is easier to better english article with the help of french model... Dd Ddfree 17:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Promoted to be a 'Good Article'

I have recently nommed an article for GA consideration & so I do my duty to review this one.

First impressions were that the article is lengthy, comprehensive, referenced throughout, well presented, and inclusive of appropriate images.

With reference to the Good Article criteria ..
1. Standard of writing.
Clear prose, correct grammar. The lead summarises the article content and provokes interest in the subject matter.
2. Accuracy and verifiability. In this respect, it: Referenced throughout. No reason to doubt any of the unreferenced statements.
3. Breadth of coverage.
Historical coverage comprehensive. Twickenham, the Sweet Chariot song, uniforms and symbols and sponsors, six(five) nations performance, world cup performance, notable overseas tours, current squad, list of coaches, overall test record, origins. It's all there.

It is lacking in not treating the issue of Amateurism vs. Professionalism - particularly the acceptance of professionalism starting from about 1995 and its rejection before then. When did the team accept the issue that players could be paid by clubs and materially rewarded for their performances? It was a heavy issue in the 70s and 80s and before. I'm sure some players were rejected from consideration or even expelled because they accepted sponsors' money at times over the years. It deserves mention.

Passed as Good.

4. Neutral.
Factual and informative. Yes.

5. Stable
Talk and history pages briefly surveyed. No issues.

6. Image content
Images all appropriate and informative.

So, congratulations! If you go for Feature Article status, be mindful that full compliance to Wikipedia:Manual of Style will be enforced; both in writing and referencing. May you prepare well.
NonlisteningFriend 03:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rugby professionalism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4392795.stm Timeline ... but it doesn't answer the question of exactly when the English national team did away with the requirement of amateurism.NonlisteningFriend 04:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That decision was not made by the RFU but by the International Rugby Board. It was not a decision made by the England team, but once professionalism was allowed they started getting paid. The club versus country thing is something that can be discussed in this article, but a lot of it is better to be in Rugby union in England as it impacts more then just the national team. - Shudde ^talk 05:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've now added a Club versus country section which covers this in detail. - Shudde ^talk 04:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nominated for FAC

This article is now a featured article nominee. I've done this after addressing the one concern of the GA reviewer, and having had the article copy-edited (by GringoInChile). You can add your comments here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 02:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2003 World cup winning squad

I have removed this. There is already a notable players section, so it's pointless to have this extra section. The 2003 squad would be more appropriate somewhere else (such as a list page 2003 Rugby World Cup squads like 2007 Rugby World Cup squads). I don't see why this squad in particular should be included in the article whilst say the dominant teams of the 1920s are excluded. This is why a notable players section exists, to prevent recentism and point of view additions. - Shudde ^talk 23:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change colours

The picture of the change colours is wrong. The stripe isn't white, it's dark red. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.134.118 (talk) 08:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kit Picture

The kit is wrong, the shorts have a red stripe on 'em (home). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.49.57 (talk) 18:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Rose

I have removed the claim that the rose emblem is the red rose of lancaster, the origin of the red rose is disputed, one legend states that it does indeed come from the red rose of lancaster, another states the rose was intended to be red and white, the royal english rose, but this never came to fruition. the third legend is that the red rose is taken from the crest of Rugby School as a further tribute to the origin of the game. The first standardised rose was desinged by Alfred Wright, this rose was modernised as Nike became the new kit sponsers. Although the colour of the rose may stem from the red rose of lancaster, the design is completly diferent and bears no resemblence (apart from the colour) to the rose of lancaster. The RFU rose has its own history and individual creation, as such I feel it is inapropriate to link it with the rose of lancaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.208.171 (talk) 11:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For mainpage on 20 October 2007?

At User_talk:Raul654#Wikipedia:Today.27s_featured_article.2FOctober_20.2C_2007 I have requested this article be the mainpage featured article for 20 October 2007 - the day of the RWC 2007 World Cup Final in Saint-Denis, France. It makes sense to me. Add your support, if you dare. As we all know .. it really does take all 15 men to get the ball over the line.IchiNiSan 10:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Mission accomplished. Brilliant! October 20 should be a great day all round. IchiNiSan —Preceding comment was added at 15:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV taken to the extreme

I love rugby and it's the perfect day to have a rugby article as today's featured article. Having said that, selecting to feature one of two teams the day a world cup final takes place is one of the biggest mistakes I've ever seen when selecting featured articles for Wikipedia. An article about the world cup or about rugby in general would have been great, having Wikipedia endorse one of the two teams in the final (and don't try to deny that that is what this selection is) is a huge blow to Wikipedia credibility. What's next? Should we start picking our favourite politicans and parties to feature when there's an election around as well? Horribly bad decision. That the suggestion was made by a now indefinitely banned user and that now discussion seems to have taken place about it just makes it all the more deplorable. JdeJ 09:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

A tiny bit of an over-reaction. Nominating a favourite politician might influence the way a few people vote. Nominating either England or South Africa will not have any bearing on the game. The nomination had nothing to do with me but perhaps the people concerned thought that being topical was important.GordyB 09:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Nodoby said it's going to influence the result. The issue at hand is that Wikipedia should not endorse specific teams, it undermines its credibility even further. JdeJ 10:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not a good situation but I don't think it's a disaster.GordyB 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Good luck England. Yes I can see how South African wikipedians may feel offended by the featured article today!!!! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^"Talk"? 13:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally I agree with JdeJ. But then, I'm a Scot... atychiphilia 17:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you'd have to be very thin skinned to be "offended". I wouldn't have taken offence if the Boks had been the Feature Article.GordyB 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That is pretty thin-skinned. That said, I do wonder if the tag should be slapped with a "current event" tag, as it is clearly going to have to be amended one way or another in a few hours. --Legis (talk - contribs) 14:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with the original poster, selecting this article for today is a horrendously poor choice, not because it will influence the game or seriously 'offend' anyone, but simply because it is entirely unnecessary POV. Putting this up on Monday, no matter how the final ended, would have been the far better decision. EnemyOfTheState 15:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

He said it himself: "it's the 'perfect day to have a rugby article as today's featured article". Prior to today, Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union tells that this article, Waisale Serevi and Crusaders are the only Featured Article class rugby union articles. I'm glad that today Wikipedia chose the article for the team that not only is playing in the 2007 final but -still holds- the Rugby World Cup from four years ago. This comes back because all the hardworking editors here rolled up their sleeves and really worked to make it an FA by the end of the Cup. Meanwhile Springboks sits back there as a mere B-class article. So get over it.

Invasion of Poland (1939) and Fighting in ice hockey also stand as former mainpage articles, and such fact is only an -endorsement- of nothing more than the vision and perspicacity of the contributing eds. I couldn't give two turds either whether a version of Springboks was on the front page of the Afrikaans-language Wikipedia today, but I'd understand it and I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Whatever happens in the game or in mainpage-choice bickering, the winner ALL ROUND ... is rugby!NewLabourNewLies 16:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm south african and I can honestly say that I don't give a shit. We'll still win though :D 82.11.220.79 18:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

And so you did.GordyB 21:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Putting up this article as the featured one is bad taste.41.241.170.236 21:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Didn't help them win...snap! lol. 203.97.237.98 21:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think only Australia in 2003 have been closer to retaining the World Cup. We did far better than anyone could have expected but South Africa were better.GordyB 21:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a bit of a storm in a teacup. I nominated the article for FAC and am a New Zealander, and have no problem with the article being TFA on the day of the World Cup final. At the moment the South African teams article is not FA so it's not a case of choosing between the two! The other two rugby FAs that have not been TFA are Waisale Serevi and Crusaders (rugby) which are not really related to the RWC. England were the reigning champions, and I don't see how having them a TFA today can be seen as Point of View I really can't. It's good to have a rugby union related article TFA on the 20th and this was the best choice available. Raul made a good decision. - Shudde ^talk 01:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear. Don' B hatin' on our Raul.—Preceding unsigned comment added by NewLabourNewLies (talk • contribs)

[edit] Succession box discussion

A discussion has been started about the breadth and formatting of succession boxes for national rugby union teams at WikiProject Rugby union. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Succession boxes. - Shudde ^talk 22:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Record verses

Why do we not have a page of each country who has played england and have list of all of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.136.163.106 (talk) 15:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tours

Does anyone know about Tour Matches England have had because I want to konw them all not just tours with Test Matches tours without test matches

• 1967 Tour of Canada
• 1971 Tour of The Far East
• 1979 Tour of Japan, Tonga and Fiji
• 1982 Tour of North America
• 1993 Tour of Canada

I also have tours with Test Matches and Here is the Tours (From The Offical England Rugby Miscellany)

[edit] 1963 England Tour of Australasia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Island/Povince	Competition	Winner
Wellington	14	9	18/05/1963	Athletic Park, Wellington	North Island	Tour Match
Otago	9	14	22/05/1963	Carisbrook, Dunedin	South Island	Tour Match	Otago
New Zealand	11	21	25/05/1963	Eden Park, Auckland	North Island	First Test
Hawke's Bay	5	20	28/05/1963	McLean Park, Napier	North Island	Tour Match	Hawke's Bay
New Zealand	6	9	01/06/1963	Lancaster Park, Christchurch	South Island	Second Test
Australia	9	18	04/06/1963	Sydney Sports Ground, Sydney	New South Wales	Test Match

[edit] 1972 England Tour of South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Province	Competition	Winner
Natal	19	0	17/05/1972	Kings Park Stadium, Durban	Natal	Tour Match
Western Province	9	6	20/05/1972	Newlands, Cape Town	Cape	Tour Match
South African Federation XV	11	6	22/05/1972	Newlands, Cape Town	Cape	Tour Match
South African (Bantu) XV	36	3	24/05/1972	Boet Erasmus Stadium, Port Elizabeth	Cape	Tour Match
Northern Transvaal	13	13	27/05/1972	Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria	Transvaal	Tour Match	Draw
Griqualand West	60	21	30/05/1972	De Beers Stadium, Kimberley	Cape	Tour Match
South Africa	18	9	03/06/1972	Ellis Park, Johannesburg	Transvaal	Test Match

[edit] 1973 England Tour of Oceania

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Island	Competition	Winner
Fiji	13	12	28/08/1973	Buckhurst Park, Suva	Viti Levu	Tour Match
Taranaki	3	6	01/09/1973	Rugby Park, New Plymouth	North Island	Tour Match	Taranaki
Wellington	16	25	05/09/1973	Athletic Park, Wellington	North Island	Tour Match	Wellington
Canterbury	12	19	08/09/1973	Lancaster Park,Christchurch	South Island	Tour Match	Canterbury
New Zealand	16	10	15/09/1973	Eden Park, Auckland	North Island	Test Match

[edit] 1975 England Tour of Australia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Povince	Competition	Winner
Western Australia	64	12	10/05/1975	Perry Lakes, Perth	Western Australia	Tour Match
Sydney	10	14	13/05/1975	Sports Ground, Sydney	New South Wales	Tour Match	Sydney
New South Wales	29	24	17/05/1975	, Sydney	New South Wales	Tour Match
NSW Country XV	13	14	20/05/1975	, Goulburn	New South Wales	Tour Match	NSW Country XV
Australia	9	16	24/05/1975	SCG, Sydney	New South Wales	First Test
Queensland	29	3	27/05/1975	Ballymore, Brisbane	Queensland	Tour Match
Australia	21	30	31/05/1975	Ballymore, Brisbane	Queensland	Second Test
Queensland Country	42	6	03/06/1975	, Townsville	Queensland	Tour Match

[edit] 1981 England Tour of Argentina

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Province	Competition	Winner
San Isidro Club	20	14	16/05/1981	, Buenos Aires	Buenos Aires	Tour Match
Northern Region XV	36	12	19/05/1981	, Córdoba	Córdoba	Tour Match
Buenos Aires Selection	34	25	23/05/1981	, Buenos Aires	Buenos Aires	Tour Match
Southern Region XV	47	3	25/05/1981	, Mar del Plata	Buenos Aires	Tour Match
Argentina	19	19	30/05/1981	Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires	Buenos Aires	First Test	Draw
Littoral Region XV	25	21	02/06/1981	, Rosario	Santa Fe	Tour Match
Argentina	12	6	06/06/1981	Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires	Buenos Aires	Second Test

[edit] 1984 England Tour of South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Competition	Winner
Currie Cup "B" Section	31	21	19/05/1984	Kings Park Stadium, Durban	Tour Match
South African Federation	23	21	23/05/1984	Danie Craven Stadium, Stellenbosch	Tour Match
Western Province	15	15	26/05/1984	Newlands, Cape Town	Tour Match	Draw
South African Rugby Association	30	8	29/05/1984	Border Rugby Union Ground, East London	Tour Match
South Africa	15	33	02/06/1984	Boet Erasmus Stadium, Port Elizabeth	First Test
Country Districts	33	12	05/06/1984	DP de Villers Stadium, Sasolburg	Tour Match
South Africa	9	35	19/06/1984	Ellis Park, Johannesburg	Second Test

[edit] 1985 England Tour of New Zealand

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
North Auckland	27	14	18/05/1985	Okara Park	Whangarei	Tour Match
Poverty Bay	45	0	22/05/1985	Rugby Park	Gisborne	Tour Match
Auckland	6	24	25/05/1985	Eden Park	Auckland	Tour Match	Auckland
Otago	25	16	28/05/1985	Carisbrook	Dunedin	Tour Match
New Zealand	13	18	01/06/1985	Lancaster Park	Christchurch	First Test
Southland	15	9	04/06/1985	Homestead Stadium	Invercargill	Tour Match
New Zealand	15	42	08/06/1985	Athletic Park	Wellington	Second Test

[edit] 1988 England Tour of Oceania

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Queensland Country	39	9	17/05/1988		Mackay	Tour Match
Queensland	22	19	22/05/1988	Ballymore	Brisbane	Tour Match
Queensland B	19	7	25/05/1988		Toowoomba	Tour Match
Australia	16	22	29/05/1988	Ballymore	Brisbane	First Test
South Australia Invitation XV	37	10	01/06/1988		Adelaide	Tour Match
New South Wales	12	23	05/06/1988		Sydney	Tour Match	New South Wales
New South Wales B	25	9	08/05/1988		Wollongong	Tour Match
Australia	8	28	12/06/1988	Concord Oval	Sydney	Second Test
Fiji	25	12	16/06/1988	National Stadium	Suva	Test Match

[edit] 1989 England Tour of Romania

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Romania	58	3	13/05/1989	Dinamo Stadium	Bucharest	Test Match

[edit] 1990 England Tour of Argentina

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Banco Nación	21	29	14/07/1990		Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Banco Nación
Tucumán Selection	19	14	18/07/1990		Tucumán	Tour Match
Buenos Aires Selection	23	26	21/07/1990		Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Buenos Aires Selection
Cuyo Selection	21	22	24/07/1990		Mendoza	Tour Match	Cuyo Selection
Argentina	25	12	28/07/1990	Vélez Sársfield	Buenos Aires	First Test
Córdoba	15	12	24/07/1990		Córdoba	Tour Match
Argentina	13	15	04/08/1990	Vélez Sársfield	Buenos Aires	Second Test

[edit] 1991 England Tour of Oceania

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Fiji	28	12	20/07/1991	National Stadium	Suva	Test Match
Australia	8	28	27/07/1991	Sydney Football Stadium	Sydney	Test Match

[edit] 1994 England Tour of South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
South Africa	32	15	04/06/1994	Loftus Versfeld	Pretoria	First Test
South Africa	9	27	11/06/1994	Newlands	Cape Town	Second Test

[edit] 1997 England Tour of Argentina and Australia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Argentina	42	20	31/05/1997	Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry	Buenos Aires	First Test
Argentina	13	33	07/06/1997	Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry	Buenos Aires	Second Test
Australia	6	25	12/07/1997	Sydney Football Stadium	Sydney	Test Match

[edit] 1998 England Tour of Australasia and South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Australia	0	76	06/06/1998	Lang Park	Brisbane	Test Match
Junior All Blacks	10	18	13/06/1998	Rugby Park	Hamilton	Tour Match	Junior All Blacks
New Zealand Academy	32	50	16/06/1998	Homestead Stadium	Invercargill	Tour Match	New Zealand Academy
New Zealand	22	64	20/06/1998	Carisbrook	Dunedin	First Test
New Zealand Māori	14	62	23/06/1998	International Stadium	Rotorua	Tour Match	New Zealand Māori
New Zealand	10	40	27/06/1998	Eden Park	Auckland	Second Test
South Africa	0	18	04/07/1998	Newlands	Cape Town	Test Match

[edit] 1999 England Tour of Australia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Queensland	39	14	19/06/1999	Ballymore	Brisbane	Tour Match
Australia	15	22	26/06/1999	Stadium Australia	Sydney	Centenary Test

[edit] 2000 England Tour of South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Western Transvaal	52	22	13/06/2000	Olën Park	Potchefstroom	Tour Match
South Africa	13	18	17/06/2000	Loftus Versfeld	Pretoria	First Test
Griqualand West	55	16	20/06/2000	ASBA Park	Kimberley	Tour Match
South Africa	27	22	24/06/2000	Vodacom Park	Bloemfontein	Second Test
Eastern Transvaal	36	27	28/06/2000	Bosman Stadium	Brakpan	Tour Match

[edit] 2001 England Tour of North America

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Canada	22	10	02/06/2001	Fletcher's Fields	Markham	First Test
British Columbia	41	19	05/06/2001	Thunderbird Stadium	Vancouver	Tour Match
Canada	59	20	09/06/2001	Swangard Stadium	Burnaby	Second Test
United States A	83	21	12/06/2001		Los Angeles	Tour Match
United States	48	19	16/06/2001	Balboa Stadium	San Francisco	Test Match

[edit] 2002 England Tour of Argentina

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Argentina A	24	29	17/06/2002		Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Argentina A
Argentina	26	18	22/06/2002	Vélez Sársfield	Buenos Aires	Test Match

[edit] 2003 England Tour of Australasia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
New Zealand Māori	23	9	09/06/2003	Yarrow Stadium	New Plymouth	Tour Match
New Zealand	15	13	14/06/2003	WestpacTrust Stadium	Wellington	Test Match
Australia	25	14	21/06/2003	Colonial Stadium	Melbourne	Test Match

[edit] 2004 England Tour of Australasia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
New Zealand	3	36	12/06/2004	Carisbrook	Dunedin	First Test
New Zealand	12	36	19/06/2004	Eden Park	Auckland	Second Test
Australia	15	51	26/06/2004	Suncorp Stadium	Brisbane	Test Match

[edit] 2006 England Tour of Australia

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Australia	3	34	11/06/2006	Stadium Australia	Sydney	First Test
Australia	18	43	17/06/2006	Colonial Stadium	Melbourne	Second Test

[edit] 2007 England Tour of South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
South Africa	10	58	26/05/2007	Vodacom Park	Bloemfontein	First Test
South Africa	22	55	02/06/2007	Loftus Versfeld	Pretoria	Second Test

[edit] 2008 England Tour of New Zealand

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
New Zealand			14/06/2008	Eden Park	Auckland	First Test
New Zealand			21/06/2008	Jade Stadium	Christchurch	Second Test

Need to do List

Tours not Done

• 1989 Tour of Romania
• 1991 Tour of Oceania
• 1994 Tour of South Africa
• 1997 Tour of Argentina
• Tour Matches for 1991, 1994, 1997 (Argentina)

Need Stadiums for Tour Matches

[edit] Record of Tours in Oceania

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Competition	Winner
Wellington	14	9	18/05/1963	Athletic Park, Wellington	Tour Match	England
Otago	9	14	22/05/1963	Carisbrook, Dunedin	Tour Match	Otago
New Zealand	11	21	25/05/1963	Eden Park, Auckland	First Test	All Blacks
Hawke's Bay	5	20	28/05/1963	McLean Park, Napier	Tour Match	Hawke's Bay
New Zealand	6	9	01/06/1963	Lancaster Park, Christchurch	Second Test	All Blacks
Australia	9	18	04/06/1963	Sydney Sports Ground, Sydney	Test Match	Wallabies
Fiji	13	12	28/08/1973	Buckhurst Park, Suva	Tour Match	England
Taranaki	3	6	01/09/1973	Rugby Park, New Plymouth	Tour Match	Taranaki
Wellington	16	25	05/09/1973	Athletic Park, Wellington	Tour Match	Wellington
Canterbury	12	19	08/09/1973	Lancaster Park, Christchurch	Tour Match	Canterbury
New Zealand	16	10	15/09/1973	Eden Park, Auckland	Test Match	England
Western Australia	64	12	10/05/1975	Perry Lakes Stadium, Perth	Tour Match	England
Sydney	10	14	13/05/1975	Sydney Sports Ground, Sydney	Tour Match	Sydney
New South Wales	29	24	17/05/1975	, Sydney	Tour Match	England
New South Wales Country XV	13	14	20/05/1975	, Goulburn	Tour Match	New South Wales Country XV
Australia	9	16	24/05/1975	Sydney Cricket Ground, Sydney	First Test	Wallabies
Queensland	29	3	27/05/1975	Ballymore, Brisbane	Tour Match	England
Australia	21	30	31/05/1975	Ballymore, Brisbane	Second Test	Wallabies
Queensland Country	42	6	03/06/1975	, Townsville	Tour Match	England
North Auckland	27	14	18/05/1985	Okara Park, Whangarei	Tour Match	England
Poverty Bay	45	0	22/05/1985	Rugby Park, Gisborne	Tour Match	England
Auckland	6	24	25/05/1985	Eden Park, Auckland	Tour Match	Auckland
Otago	25	16	28/05/1985	Carisbrook, Dunedin	Tour Match	England
New Zealand	13	18	01/06/1985	Lancaster Park, Christchurch	First Test	All Blacks
Southland	15	9	04/06/1985	Homestead Stadium, Invercargill	Tour Match	England
New Zealand	15	42	08/06/1985	Athletic Park, Wellington	Second Test	All Blacks
Queensland Country	39	9	17/05/1988	, Mackay	Tour Match	England
Queensland	22	19	22/05/1988	Ballymore, Brisbane	Tour Match	England
Queensland B	19	7	25/05/1988	, Toowoomba	Tour Match	England
Australia	16	22	29/05/1988	Ballymore, Brisbane	First Test	Wallabies
South Australia Invitation XV	37	10	01/06/1988	, Adelaide	Tour Match	England
New South Wales	12	23	05/06/1988	, Sydney	Tour Match	New South Wales
New South Wales B	25	9	08/05/1988	, Wollongong	Tour Match	England
Australia	8	28	12/06/1988	Concord Oval, Sydney	Second Test	Wallabies
Fiji	25	12	16/06/1988	National Stadium, Suva	Test Match	England
Australia	6	25	12/07/1997	Sydney Football Stadium, Sydney	Test Match	Wallabies
Australia	0	76	06/06/1998	Lang Park, Brisbane	Test Match	Wallabies
Junior All Blacks	10	18	13/06/1998	Rugby Park, Hamilton	Tour Match	Junior All Blacks
New Zealand Academy	32	50	16/06/1998	Homestead Stadium, Invercargill	Tour Match	New Zealand Academy
New Zealand	22	64	20/06/1998	Carisbrook, Dunedin	First Test	All Blacks
New Zealand Māori	14	62	23/06/1998	International Stadium, Rotorua	Tour Match	New Zealand Māori
New Zealand	10	40	27/06/1998	Eden Park, Auckland	Second Test	All Blacks
Queensland	39	14	19/06/1999	Ballymore, Brisbane	Tour Match	England
Australia	15	22	26/06/1999	Stadium Australia, Sydney	Centenary Test	Wallabies
New Zealand Māori	23	9	09/06/2003	Yarrow Stadium, New Plymouth	Tour Match	England
New Zealand	15	13	14/06/2003	WestpacTrust Stadium, Wellington	Test Match	England
Australia	25	14	21/06/2003	Colonial Stadium, Melbourne	Test Match	England
New Zealand	3	36	12/06/2004	Carisbrook, Dunedin	First Test	All Blacks
New Zealand	12	36	19/06/2004	Eden Park, Auckland	Second Test	All Blacks
Australia	15	51	26/06/2004	Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane	Test Match	Wallabies
Australia	3	34	11/06/2006	Stadium Australia, Sydney	First Test	Wallabies
Australia	18	43	17/06/2006	Colonial Stadium, Melbourne	Second Test	Wallabies

Missing 1991 Tour and 10 Stadiums for the Tour Matches

[edit] Record of Tours in South Africa

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Competition	Winner
Natal	19	0	17/05/1972	Kings Park Stadium, Durban	Tour Match	England
Western Province	9	6	20/05/1972	Newlands, Cape Town	Tour Match	England
South African Federation XV	11	6	22/05/1972	Newlands, Cape Town	Tour Match	England
South African (Bantu) XV	36	3	24/05/1972	Boet Erasmus Stadium, Port Elizabeth	Tour Match	England
Northern Transvaal	13	13	27/05/1972	Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria	Tour Match	Draw
Griqualand West	60	21	30/05/1972	De Beers Stadium, Kimberley	Tour Match	England
South Africa	18	9	03/06/1972	Ellis Park, Johannesburg	Test Match	England
Currie Cup "B" Section	31	21	19/05/1984	Kings Park Stadium, Durban	Tour Match	England
South African Federation	23	21	23/05/1984	Danie Craven Stadium, Stellenbosch	Tour Match	England
Western Province	15	15	26/05/1984	Newlands, Cape Town	Tour Match	Draw
South African Rugby Association	30	8	29/05/1984	Border Rugby Union Ground, East London	Tour Match	England
South Africa	15	33	02/06/1984	Boet Erasmus Stadium, Port Elizabeth	First Test	Springboks
Country Districts	33	12	05/06/1984	DP de Villers Stadium, Sasolburg	Tour Match	England
South Africa	9	35	19/06/1984	Ellis Park, Johannesburg	Second Test	Springboks
South Africa	0	18	04/07/1998	Newlands, Cape Town	Test Match	Springboks
Western Transvaal	52	22	13/06/2000	Olën Park, Potchefstroom	Tour Match	England
South Africa	13	18	17/06/2000	Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria	First Test	Springboks
Griqualand West	55	16	20/06/2000	ASBA Park, Kimberley	Tour Match	England
South Africa	27	22	24/06/2000	Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein	Second Test	England
Eastern Transvaal	36	27	28/06/2000	Bosman Stadium, Brakpan	Tour Match	England
South Africa	10	58	26/05/2007	Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein	First Test	Springboks
South Africa	22	55	02/06/2007	Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria	Second Test	Springboks

Missing 1994 Tour

[edit] Record of Tours in Argentina

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	Competition	Winner
San Isidro Club	20	14	16/05/1981	, Buenos Aires	Tour Match	England
Northern Region XV	36	12	19/05/1981	, Córdoba	Tour Match	England
Buenos Aires Selection	34	25	23/05/1981	, Buenos Aires	Tour Match	England
Southern Region XV	47	3	25/05/1981	, Mar del Plata	Tour Match	England
Argentina	19	19	30/05/1981	Ferrocarril Stadium, Buenos Aires	First Test	Draw
Littoral Region XV	25	21	02/06/1981	, Rosario	Tour Match	England
Argentina	12	6	06/06/1981	Ferrocarril Stadium, Buenos Aires	Second Test	England
Banco Nación	21	29	14/07/1990	, Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Banco Nación
Tucumán Selection	19	14	18/07/1990	, Tucumán	Tour Match	England
Buenos Aires Selection	23	26	21/07/1990	, Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Buenos Aires Selection
Cuyo Selection	21	22	24/07/1990	, Mendoza	Tour Match	Cuyo Selection
Argentina	25	12	28/07/1990	Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires	First Test	England
Córdoba	15	12	24/07/1990	, Córdoba	Tour Match	England
Argentina	13	15	04/08/1990	Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires	Second Test	Los Pumas
Argentina A	24	29	17/06/2002	, Buenos Aires	Tour Match	Argentina A
Argentina	26	18	22/06/2002	Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires	Test Match	England

Missing 1997 Tour and Stadiums for the Tour Matches

[edit] Summer Tours with Test Matches

Flag	Nation or Nations	From	To	Test Matches				Tour Matches				Total Record
				P	W	D	L	P	W	D	L	P	W	D	L	%	PF	PA	PD
	1963 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 0–2 New Zealand England 0–1 Australia	18th May	4th June	3	-	-	3	3	1	-	2	6	1	-	5	16.67%	54	91	-37
	1972 Tour of South Africa Test Series England 1–0 South Africa	17th May	3rd June	1	1	-	-	6	5	1	-	7	6	1	-	85.71%	166	58	+108
	1973 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 1–0 Fiji (Tour Match) England 1–0 New Zealand	28th August	15th September	1	1	-	-	4	1	-	3	5	2	-	3	40%	60	72	-12
	1975 Tour of Australia Test Series England 0–2 Australia	10th May	3rd June	2	-	-	2	6	4	-	2	8	4	-	4	50%	217	119	+98
	1981 Tour of Argentina Test Series England 1–0 Argentina (1 Draw)	16th May	6th June	2	1	1	-	5	5	-	-	7	6	1	-	85.71%	193	100	+93
	1984 Tour of South Africa Test Series England 0–2 South Africa	19th May	9th June	2	-	-	2	5	4	1	-	7	4	1	2	57.14%	156	145	+11
	1985 Tour of New Zealand Test Series England 0–2 New Zealand	18th May	8th June	2	-	-	2	5	4	-	1	7	4	1	2	57.14%	146	123	+23
	1988 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 0–2 Australia England 1–0 Fiji	17th May	17th June	3	1	-	2	6	5	-	1	9	6	-	3	66.67%	203	137	+66
	1989 Tour of Romania Test Series England 1–0 Romania			1	1	0	0	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-		-	-	-
	1990 Tour of Argentina Test Series England 1–1 Argentina* England Won the Series on Points*	14th July	4th August	2	1	-	1	5	2	-	3	7	3	-	4	42.86%	137	129	+8
	1991 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 1–0 Fiji England 0–1 Australia			2	1	-	1	5	2	-	3	7	3	-	4	42.86%
	1994 Tour of South Africa Test Series England 1–1 South Africa* South Africa Won the Series on Points*			2	1	-	1	6	2	-	4	8	3	-	5	37.5%
	1997 Tour of Argentina and Australia Test Series England 1–1 Argentina* England 0–1 Australia England Won the Series on Points*		12th June	3	1	-	2	4	3	-	1	7	4	-	3	57.14%
	1998 Tour of The Tri Nations Test Series England 0–1 Australia England 0–2 New Zealand England 0–1 South Africa	6th June	4th July	4	-	-	4	3	-	-	3	7	-	-	7	0%	88	328	-240
	1999 Tour of Australia Test Series England 0–1 Australia	19th June	26th June	1	-	-	1	1	1	-	-	2	1	-	1	50%	54	36	+18
	2000 Tour of South Africa Test Series England 1–1 South Africa* Shared Series on Points*	13th June	28th June	2	1	-	1	3	3	-	-	5	4	-	1	80%	183	105	+78
	2001 Tour of North America Test Series England 2–0 Canada England 1–0 United States	2nd June	16th June	3	3	-	-	2	2	-	-	5	5	-	-	100%	253	89	+164
	2002 Tour of Argentina Test Series England 1–0 Argentina	17th June	22nd June	1	1	-	-	1	-	-	1	2	1	-	1	50%	50	47	+3
	2003 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 1–0 New Zealand England 1–0 Australia	9th June	21st June	2	2	-	-	1	1	-	-	3	3	-	-	100%	63	36	+27
	2004 Tour of Oceania Test Series England 0–2 New Zealand England 0–1 Australia	12th June	26th June	3	-	-	3	-	-	-	-	3	-	-	3	0%	30	123	-97
	2006 Tour of Australia Test Series England 0–2 Australia	11th June	17th June	2	-	-	2	-	-	-	-	2	-	-	2	0%	21	77	-56
	2007 Tour of South Africa Test Series England 0–2 South Africa	26th May	6th June	2	-	-	2	-	-	-	-	2	-	-	2	0%	32	113	-81

[edit] First Match

England's 1st match against Scotland in 1871 wasn't lost 4-1, but 1-0 ie 1 goal to 0 (points hadn't been introduced then)

Exile 18:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get this information from? The scoring systems was complicated, and often different in different countries at this point. However going by rugbydata.com the score was 4-1 with two tries and a conversion to one try; see the reference here. We should use the sourced score. - Shudde ^talk 20:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(Bumping this down to the bottom of the page for further discussion). rugbydata is wrong then (and the same error appears on a lot of websites for some reason). The RFU site contradicts it with "Scotland won by 1 goal, 1 try to 1 goal", but I'd say that is wrong as well. Exile is right as far as I know, and I'd say the history of rugby union page has it best with "The game, played over two halves, each of 50 minutes, was won by Scotland, who scored a goal (a try followed by a successful conversion kick). Both sides also scored a try, but these did not count as the conversion kicks were missed." which it sources from a book. That's supported by this scoring through the ages page, as well as scrum.com and best of all, the official Scottish rugby site --Travis Basevi (talk) 02:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The scrum.com reference says 1t 1g to 1t, yet credits two Scottish players with scoring tries? None of the references you give really confirms what the score would have been, because like i said above, the scoring values depended where you played. One reason the IRB was formed was because during early international rugby in the 1880's the winner of a match would be different depending who's scoring system was used. Until it was standardised, it was generally the home countries scoring system that was used. Your reference to the rfu's rules regarding scoring is somewhat irrelvant due to this (plus the fact that the RFU was formed after the match was played). To say that rugbydata is wrong however is probably pushing it. I don't mind changing the description of the score to one (or two) tries and a goal to one goal, but certainly not to 1–0. A footnote may be the best option, as detailed information regarding the scoring system is prob. a little unnecessary. - Shudde ^talk 04:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we'll have to discount scrum as a source because of that discrepancy. Anyway, upon looking further I did find this description of the match at rugby football history:

The first ever international game: Scotland v England played at Raeburn Place in Edinburgh, March 27th, in front of a crowd of 4000 (Scotland won by one goal and one try to one goal, the teams were 20-a-side and Halves were 50 minutes each). The try was awarded after a 10 minute argument, leading to a famous aphorism by Dr. HH Almond, the Scottish umpire: "I must say, however, that when an umpire is in doubt, I think he is justified in deciding against the side which makes the most noise. They are probably in the wrong."

The scores for Scotland were obtained by Angus Buchanan, from whose try W. Cross kicked a goal, but he was unsuccessful in his attempt to convert the second try which he scored himself. The English try was credited to R. H. Birkett, but F. Stokes, the English captain, was unsuccessful with the place kick.

And that bizarrely contradicts itself by saying that that Scotland scored 1 try England scored 1 goal in the first paragraph but it was actually 2 and 0 respectively in the second paragraph. Maybe it was the amateur ethos, but it really is an indictment on rugby that there can be so much confusion over such a significant event in it's history. Perhaps it's this confusion that should be noted in the main article. The only thing that I'd say is not in doubt is that the idea of points by saying Scotland won 4-1 did not exist at the time. --Travis Basevi (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other Test Series

Flag	Nation	From	To	Total Record
				P	W	D	L	%	PF	PA	PD
	1997 Series v New Zealand England 0–1 New Zealand (1 Draw)	22nd November	6th December	2	-	1	1	0%	34	51	-11
	2003 Series v France England 1–1 France	30th August	6th September	2	1	-	1	50%	61	31	+30
	2006 Series v South Africa England 1–1 South Africa	18th November	25th November	2	1	-	1	50%	37	46	-9
	2007 Series v France England 1–1 France	11th August	18th August	2	-	-	2	0%	24	43	-19

[edit] List of Unofficial Internationals

Scores and results list England's points tally first.

Opposing Teams	For	Against	Date	Venue	City	Competition	Winner
Canada	29	0	30/09/1967	Empire Stadium	Vancouver	Tour Match
Japan	27	19	24/09/1971	Kintetsu Hanazono Stadium	Osaka	Tour Match
Japan	6	3	28/09/1971	Chichibunomiya Stadium	Tokyo	Tour Match
Hong Kong	26	0	30/09/1971	TBC	Hong Kong	Tour Match
Singapore	39	9	03/10/1971	TBC	Singapore	Tour Match
Ceylon	40	11	06/10/1971	Longden Place	Colombo	Tour Match
Ceylon	34	6	08/10/1971	Longden Place	Colombo	Tour Match
Fiji	13	12	28/08/1973	Buckhurst Park	Suva	Tour Match
United States	37	11	15/10/1977	Twickenham	London	Tour Match
Argentina	15	15	14/10/1978	Twickenham	London	Tour Match	Draw
Japan	21	19	13/05/1979	Kintetsu Hanazono Stadium	Osaka	Tour Match
Japan	38	18	20/05/1979	Olympic Stadium	Tokyo	Tour Match
Fiji	19	7	20/05/1979	Buckhurst Park	Suva	Tour Match
Tonga	37	17	01/06/1979	Teufaiva Sport Stadium	Nuku’alofa	Tour Match
Canada	43	6	29/05/1982	TBC	Burnaby	Tour Match
United States	59	0	19/06/1982	Dillon Stadium	Hartford	Tour Match
Fiji	60	19	16/10/1982	Twickenham	London	Tour Match
Canada	27	0	15/10/1983	Twickenham	London	Tour Match
Italy	15	15	10/05/1986	Stadio Olimpico	Rome	Tour Match	Draw
Japan	39	12	11/10/1986	Twickenham	London	Tour Match
Soviet Union	53	0	07/09/1991	Twickenham	London	Tour Match
Canada	12	15	29/05/1993	Swangard Stadium	Burnaby	Tour Match
Canada	19	14	05/06/1993	Twin Elm Rugby Park	Nepean	Tour Match

That is NOT a "group hug"; They are stretching out their lateral dorsimus and upper back... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.114.58.46 (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Box for Tours

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