Talk:England and Germany football rivalry

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Contents

[edit] The 1899 games

[edit] The proposal

The Times, Tuesday, Oct 10, 1899; pg. 9

FOOTBALL
The FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION

The Selection Committee of the Association considered last night, at a meeting held at the offices in Chancery-lane, the proposal for sending a representative English team to Germany and Austria towards the close of November for the playing of three matches - two with Germany and one with Austria. No definite decision was arrived at; but in all probability a side, wholly amateur in its constitution, will be sent to the Continent for a ten days' tour. The subject will be further dicussed in a few days and the final arrangements will be settled at a meeting of the sub-committee on the 28th inst. at Sheffield. The absence of any professionals in the side is determined really by their employers, the League clubs, who can scarecely be expected to risk anything for the championship, on their position in which their "gates" so largeley depend. Continental footballers, since the visit from University players, are quite anxious for the visit. Berlin, Prague, and Postsdam are the places that will probably be selected for the decision of the matches.

[edit] Confirmation

The Times, Tuesday, Oct 17, 1899; pg. 7

FOOTBALL

The Football Association have decided to send a representative English team to play four matches with Germany during eight days following November 20. Berlin will have two of the fixtures and Prague and another city one each. The English Association Committee meet on the 28th inst. to select their side, which will no doubt be mostly amateur in its constitution, for the professional clubs in the height of the season could scarcely be asked to let off their men for nearly a fortnight. Before agreeing to the tour the Football Association made it a condition that all four matches should be rigidly representative.

[edit] The squad

This is what I've been trawling through for in particular. The TimesTuesday, Nov 14, 1899; pg. 11

FOOTBALL

The German tour was definitely arranged and the English players will include C.Wreford Brown (captain), G.P. Wilson, H.R. Barrett, W.H. Waller, E.D. Brown and Stanley Briggs, with the following professionals - Back, Sunderland; Needham, Sheffield United; Crabtree, Aston Villa; Cox, Deby County; Chadwick, Brunley; Rogers, Newcastle; and Fred Foreman, Notts Forest. November 20 is the day of sailing. There will be two matches in Berlin and one each in Carlsruhe and Prague.

Okay that last one is the one I was really looking for. With those players it was obviously not some Mickey Mouse tour. This was a fully representative English FA side. There were top players of their day. Jooler 17:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On the boat

Team corrections The Times, Tuesday, Nov 21, 1899; pg. 12

FOOTBALL
ASSOCIATION RULES

The English team organized by the Football Association to play a seires of matches in Germany left Holborn Viaduct Station last night for Berlin via Flushing. there was a large crowd to see them off. C. Wreford Brown was unable, at the last momemt, to join the party, and the constitution of the side was as follows - G.P. Wilson and S.S. Taylor, Corinthians; W.H. Waller, Richmond; E.D. Brown ans Stanley Briggs, Clapton; O.E. Wreford Brown, Old Cathusians; Bach, Sunderland; Crabtree, Aston Villa; Cox, Derby County; Bassett, West Bromich albion; Holt, Reading; Chadwick, Burnley; Rogers, Newcastle United; and Fred Norman Notts Forest. The tour consists of two matches at Berlin to-morrow and Thursday, one in Prague on the 25th, and the final at Karlsruhe on the 28th.

[edit] The first game

The Times, Friday, Nov 24, 1899; pg. 11

ENGLISH TEAM IN GERMANY. BERLIN, Nov. 23.

The Englsh team played the first of the four matches arranged on the Berlin Athletic Sports ground against a German team to-day under Association rules. The Englishmen easily defeated their opponents by 13 goals to 2, although a strong wind blowing accross the ground hampered the scoring. The Germans led off well, several times rushing the ball dangerously near the visitors goal; but the Englishmen soon rallied, and after a brilliant piece of dribbling down the left on the part of Basset, who throughout showed splendid form, the ball was centred and headed through the posts. A clever piece of play on the part of the German captain ended in a goal for the home team after which the Britishers scored five in succession. After half-time the Germans were seen to less advantage, their goalkeeper who played extremely well, having to bear the brunt of the work, and they only added one more goal to their score. On the English side Forman, Briggs and Basset were the most conspicuous while in the German team the captain and goalkeeper showed the best form. The German eleven was fairly fast but they lacked combination and were quite outmatched. The English team will be entertained at dinner to-night. -Reuter

[edit] Second game

The Times, Saturday, Nov 25, 1899; pg. 11

THE ENGLISH FOOTBALL TEAM IN GERMANY

A Reuter telegram dated Berlin, November 24 says :- The second match between the English football team and a representative German eleven began here this morning. The Englishmen at the very start forced the vall to their opponents' goal, scoring within the first ten minutes, after Rogers had dribbled the ball down the centre. an exciting mêlée followed near the German goal, and then Forman shot a second goal. Good play on the part of the home team resulted in their scoring a goal, after which the English forwards, among whom Rogers and Taylor, the Cambridge Blue, were conspicuous, forced the game, and half0time arrived with the score standing at six goals to one. In the second galf the game became faster. In th last 20 minutes the English attack was very strong, Rogers, who shot five goals, again excelling, as did also Taylor, Wilson, and Forman. At the call of time the Englishmen had scored ten goals and the Germans two. The visotors are delighted with their reception in Berlin. They leave to-night for Prague.

[edit] third game

The Times, Monday, Nov 27, 1899; pg. 13

THE ENGLISH PLAYERS IN AUSTRIA.
PRAGUE NOV. 25.

A football match under Association rules was played here to-day between the English team and an eleven representing Germany and Austria, resulting in a win for the former by eight goals to nothing. - Reuter.


[edit] Fourth and final game

The Times, Wednesday, Nov 29, 1899; pg. 11;

THE ENGLISH TEAM IN AUSTRIA
KARLSRUHE, Nov 28.

The concluding match of the tour of the English football team on the continent was played here to-day, when the Englishmen again opposed an eleven representing the combined strength of Germany and Austria. The result was a win for England by seven goals to none. The width and roughness of the ground interfered to some extent with the combination of the English players, but they nevertheless pressed nearly all through the game The German defence was good, but although playing a plucky game, they were overmatched. In the first half two goals were scored by Taylor, and one each by Chadwick and Rogers; in the second half Chadwick scored twice and Brown once. Holt played a splendid game for the Englishmen. There were 3,000 spectators. The Englishmen, who have had an extremely pleasant tour, leave for home to-morrow.

[edit] Squads for the 1901 games

This game does not appear to be officially recordied as a full international, but it is reported in The Times. It's not worth putting the following details in the article but for the record.

Transcript of The Times Saturday, Sep 14, 1901; pg. 12.

FOOTBALL - THE GERMAN TOUR IN ENGLAND

The amateur and professional Association elevens, which are to play the German team of football players on the Tottenham Hotspur ground on the 21st inst., and the Manchester City ground on the 25th inst., were offically given to the Press by Mr. F.J. Wall, the secretary of the Football Association, yesterday. They are as follows:-

Amateurs - W.H. Waller (Richmond Association), goal; C.B. Fry (Corinthinas) and W. Blackburn (Oxford University), basks; T.Marshall (Bishop Auckland), J.H. Thwaites (Old Cathusians), and H.Vickers (Casuals), half-backs; L. Hales (Crewe Alexandra) and S.S. Taylor (Casuals), right wing. G.o. Smith (Corinthians), centre R.E. Foster (Old Malvernians) and B.O. Corbett (Corinthians), left wing, forwards.

Professionals - Geroge (Aston Villa), goal Iremonger (Notts Forest) and Compton (Blackburn Rovers), backs Fitchett (Bolton Wanderers), Smith (Manchester City), and Needham (Sheffield United), halfbacks; Whittaker (Blackburn Rovers) and Bloomer (Derby County), right wing, Calvey (Notts Forest), centre, Wooldridge (Wolverhampton Wanderers) and Wharton (Small Heath) left wings, forwards.

The German team are due in London on Friday next.

There is a fairly decent and fair match report for the first game in The Times, Monday, Sep 23, 1901; pg. 10., but for the second game it barely gets a mention. The report of The Times, Thursday, Sep 26, 1901; pg. 8; says - "Yesterday at Manchester, the German football eleven met a professional side chosen by the Football Association. The German team were outclassed at every turn, and the English professionals won quite easily by ten goals to none." and that's all. Jooler 16:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Very impressive research! Well done! Angmering 18:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] softening of rivalry in recent years

does anyone else feel the rivalry has become more friendly in recent years? England and Germany are two of the only teams that aren't a bunch of diving ****s. I could help but sense of respect during the last world cup by the english towards the Germans.

Especially in light of the recent rivalry between Argentina and England.

Your th

I remember walking into a pub during the third place play off in 2006 to find everyone cheering on Germany - admittedly against Portugal who'd knocked out England, but even that wouldn't have been enough in previous years. Plus 2006 didn't have an England-Germany game so the more direct passions didn't get a chance to get vented. Timrollpickering 11:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rivalry

Any sources for the existence of this rivalry? The fact that the two teams have played games together is not really a source... I understand that England would like to beat Germany, but I mean come on, there is not even an equivalent article on the German wikipedia.

Is this: "Unlike England's rivalries with those other two teams, however, the enmity is felt predominantly on the English side rather than shared, with the Germans regarding their team's traditional rivalry with the Netherlands as more important." supposed to deal with the issue?193.132.242.1 17:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There are several sources given in the article — see this Observer piece, for example. Angmering 19:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
As a German who has been spending a few years in England, I was surprised to find such a well balanced article on a topic so emotional. Many thanks for your fairness and congratulations. There is a great book on this subject: The best of enemies, David Downing, Bloomsbury Publishing, 2000, ISBN 0747549788. You will find a lot of anecdotes and plenty of stats (a little outdated, of course).
There is one observation I found particularly interesting: The 1966 final was the last time that England finished ahead of Germany in a World Cup. Maybe, this would be a good finisher for the 1966 paragraph. But then again, I don't want to rub it in...
Cheers, dentsdelyon 15:13, 10 September 2007
Thanks for your kind words — I'm not the only main contributor to this article of course, but I did write quite a lot of it so I thank you on behalf of everyone else who has worked on it so far. That book you mention sounds very interesting — I will try and get hold of a copy as it will be good for references. It will be interesting to see what will happen to this rivalry in the future, as I think England and Germany are a lot friendlier these days, especially after the last World Cup which Germany seemed to do such a great job of hosting. Angmering 16:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The book is definately a good read. About the rivalry, I guess it is becoming somewhat less fierce these days, but it would be a shame to do away with it altogether, and I am sure that for one reason or another, it will flare up rather sooner than later. Anyway, the German press shed a lot of warm words for the DANKE FÜR 2006 [1]choreo at Wembley on August 22nd.
dentsdelyon 10:53, 11 September 2007
P.S.: There is a little anecdote I love in this context, but I have to check the exact wording in English for I only have a German press article. After England's defeat over Germany in the 1990 World Cup, Helmut Kohl told the press that Germany had beaten England in their national sport. On hearing this, Margaret Thatcher replied: "Tell Mr Kohl that we have beaten the Germans twice in their national sport this century." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dentsdelyon (talkcontribs) 12:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
You like that comment, as a German? Interesting... I always dislike the way the rivalry is so often brought back to events that happened 60 years or more ago... Like the regrettable Daily Mirror headline back in 1996 with its "Achtung! Surrender! For You Fritz, Ze Euro 96 Championship is Over!" and so forth... Leaves a bad taste in the mouth. When there are so many purely footballing reasons for the rivalry it seems a shame to drag it back to the other thing. Although of course that's just my view, and it would be wrong of our article to ignore the cultural context. Angmering 16:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
That quote, true or not, is hilarious. The funny thing is, though, that so many nations believe they have won World Wars (and the cold war) - all on their own, of course, without any help worth mentioning. So do the "stand up if you won the war"-English, the French "surrender-monkeys", the "better late than never"-Americans, the Soviets, Poles, Canadians, Aussies and many more.... Germany must have lost dozen of World Wars to warrant all those claims. Maybe an Allied team with 50+ players should appear in future World Cups. -- Matthead discuß!     O       19:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)