Talk:Engineering vehicle

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[edit] Proposed Move

Propose this article be moved to Construction equipment, more commonly called construction equipment than it is "Engineering vehicle".

[edit] Evidence

Searched for the following terms:

Yahoo!

  • "Construction equipment"
    • 6,430,000
  • "Engineering vehicle"
    • 20,200
  • "Engineering vehicle"
    • 41,800

Google

  • "Construction equipment"
    • 3,050,000
  • "Engineering vehicle"
    • 24,900
  • "Engineering vehicle"
    • 39,300

Websites: (from the top 8 leading global manufactureres)

WikiDon 02:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

This article and the article "Heavy Equipment" are nearly identical. They must be merged in some way.

"Construction equipment" looks like a much wider category of thing than "engineering vehicle". Specific engineering vehicles (or whatever) have specific names (eg "backhoe loaders"), so "engineering vehicle" itself may be less used, but more useful than "construction equipment" (which covers all manner of things which aren't vehicles). Rd232 talk 17:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

But, it is Wikipedia policy to use the most common term for the title of an article. And if 90% of the people in the world, including all of the companies that make the stuff, call it a "chicken," we should not call it an "egg laying domesticated bird." Would you call the article "Latrodectus mactans," or would you title it "Black widow spider"? Should the name of the article be "German Democratic Republic," or "East Germany"? While Latrodectus mactans, German Democratic Republic, and "engineering vehicle" may be more technical, it does not mean they should be the title of the article.
Remember, articles should be made, and titled, from the point-of-view of a new searcher looking for information. A 10-year old boy in India, Argentina, Calgary, Cape Town, Hong Kong, Dresden, or where ever, is going to search for the most common term, and want to be educated as to what the most common term is. Now the article should include more "construction equipment," and if it gets to big, a new seperate article can be spun-off. But if it is "spit", don't title it "salivic discharge". Is it a Gallus gallus? Or a? WikiDon 18:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree "Engineering vehicle" means nothing to me. Merge with "construction equipment" Please,

I also agree that it should be changed. An engineering vehicle could be a vehicle used to carry extra heavy loads by road, such as rockets to launch pad, chemical reactors to construction site etc.

We have Construction equipment, Construction tools, Construction machinery, Mining equipment, Mining machinery, Power tools, Roadmaking equipment, Building equipment etc Gregorydavid 07:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree! I tried to link NKMZ to heavy equipment and all I got was "vehicles". What about forges, blast furnaces, hydroelectric generation equipment, industrial presses, etc etc? --McTrixie 13:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I have restored the redirect of heavy equipment to this page, as the two were almost identical (I merged the differences first). User:McTrixie is right in saying that "heavy equipment" deserves a page to itself, so all that it needs is for some knowledgeable soul to come along and create one appropriate to the products made by NKMZ etc. In the mean-time, I suggest the redirect should stay.
Construction equipment currently redirects back here. Another alternative would be Construction vehicle (which also redirects here - argh!)? Someone else can resolve this one though...
EdJogg 18:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, move it. Ideas? What is the common industry name for this category of equipment? Engineering vehicle sounds wrong. Construction vehicle or construction equipment sound right. Power tool covers the lighter equipment so "heavy" need not enter the title I gather. (If you wrote this move proposal, please go ahead and sign it.) I'll move the page in a week if we agree where to... suggestions? --Roger Chrisman (talk) 00:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I proposed this 21 October 2005, so it has been a couple of days. Discussion is now closed. Move to Construction equipment is the best choice. Lets move it. WikiDon (talk) 06:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I have no preference for the name. Industry name is just "equipment", everything else is small tools or a haul truck.Granite07 (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I decided not to move the page for now. Engineering vehicle seems wrong to me; however, Construction equipment or Construction vehicle don't seem right to me either because they leave out agriculture and mining. So I'd favor Heavy equipment, with subcategories in it for Earthmover (bulldozer, grader, scraper, dump truck, etc), Construction equipment (cranes, cement mixers etc. but not general power tools), Agriculture equipment (harvesters, forestry stuff, etc.), Mining equipment, and maybe Other (cherry picker, fork lift, etc.). Not sure if heavy science equipment like Large Hadron Collider or heavy manufacturing equipment needs a spot under "heavy equipment," think not... I'd want further consensus before undertaking this move. NB: Category:Engineering vehicles (which has sub-categories of its own, too) is on many pages now and should be considered part of this move. Maybe we should discuss that on Category talk:Engineering vehicles? I don't have the confidence to tackle all this myself right now without strong consensus from more Wikipedians. Personally I favor both moving Engineering vehicle to Heavy equipment and changing Category:Engineering vehicles to Category:Heavy equipment (by finding all pages that link to that category and changing all those page's category links to the new category instead -- tedious to do and disruptive). What do you guys think of Heavy equipment as both the name for this page and its corresponding category? Thanks! -- :-) Roger Chrisman (talk) 05:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Lets look at it this way, in a tree format:
  • "Universe"
    • "Solar system"
      • "Earth"
        • "Asia"
          • "China"
        • "North America"
          • "United States"
            • "California"
              • "Los Angeles County"
                • "City of Los Angeles"


  • "Vehicles"
    • "Aircraft vehicles"
    • "Automotive vehicles" (inc: cars, trucks, engineering, etc)
      • "Engineering vehicle"
        • "Construction equipment"
          • "Ride on"
            • "Backhoe loader"
              • "Backhoe loader bucket"
          • "Hand tool/walk behind"
        • "Mining equipment"
        • "Logging equipment"
    • "Waterborne vehicles"
    • "Spacecraft vehicles"
If the article for EV gets to a certain size, break out. ~ WikiDon (talk) 08:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Where does barge crane and dredger fit, waterborne or engineering vehicle? Both are used for construction. My opinion is 1) call Peterson CAT in Chico, they are the west coast authority 2) find the Professor at a first tier research university who researches this topic and ask them, try google scholar search. I am sure this conversation has already been had, no need to reinvent the wheel. Your class system looks good to me. If you believe Wikipedia will be around for a few years, then where does spacecraft heavy equipment go. That robotic arm on the spacestation looks like lifting equipment to me and the Phoenix Lander has a backhoe Attachment. Granite07 (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Attachments and tools

Are wheels and tires attachments? I think they are, based on the accounting practice of listing equipment and tires separately. When a piece of equipment is purchased the purchase price does not include the tires, these are priced separately as a consumable component. In asset accounting, the tires are again not listed as an asset as the equipment is. The tires are part of the maintenance and service of the equipment similar to hoses and belts.

The tires should be listed under the category of attachments in the same way as buckets, augers and cold planes are. The tire is chosen for a specific purpose on the job depending on terrain, haul distance and ground conditions. The selection of the tire to suit a particular task is similar to the selection of a tool or attachment for a particular task.

A Wikipedia page dedicated to the selection of equipment tires and application to various project variables will prove to be valuable to project engineers and equipment managers in selecting to best tire for their application.

I am adding tire back into the tool attachment list. A similar page dedicated to equipment/excavator buckets will also prove to be beneficial. Separate pages dedicated to loader buckets, excavator buckets, bobcat buckets, shovel buckets, backhoe buckets and dragline buckets is not practical. One page addressing buckets for all types of equipment should be possible as buckets share commonalities for application. For instance the teeth selected for buckets is universally the same for differing applications. For now the double listing of both excavator bucket and equipment bucket will remain. Granite07 02:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

A TIRE is an OPTION, not an attachment, nobody calls a tire an attachment. And, every maker puts out a guide, Deere, Case, etc, etc.,,, Going to list them all? IP4240207xx 05:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Tire is an option on a vehicle, such as your personal car. On equipment tires are sold separate. The tire type is selected based on the expected use. The CAT handbook is not the same as a Deere or Case dealers brochure. The CAT handbook has cycle time, rim pull and shrink/swell equations, all very useful. If you still disagree about the tires, I suggest we contact an equipment dealer and ask. Maybe there should be a separate section about heavy equipment tires if including them under the attachment header is too much of a stretch for you.Granite07 06:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The major difference between equipment and tires appears in accounting where the depreciation calculation for equipment ownership cost does not include the tires, they are accounted for separately as an operating cost. On a project the tires are a project cost while the equipment is paid for on an hourly rate. The attachments also become a project cost if they are particular to that project. At project completion the equipment is returned but the special attachments are sold and the tires are likely junk by then. The next project can buy new tires applicable to their project needs. Most of the items listed as an attachment or tool could also be classified as an option. The point is the tires are not a part of the equipment, they are a separate item with their own characteristics independent of what they are mounted on. Granite07 06:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Types list

Discussion of items in the Engineering vehicle#Types list

[edit] Front shovel

(Google search) looks like another name for excavator to me. So let's redirect front shovel to excavator. Done. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

looks like and is are two different thingsGranite07 (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
If so, please put sourced (so it won't get speedy deleted by some WP hawk) info about the Front shovel in that page instead of the redirect. Thanks! --Roger Chrisman (talk) 00:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Is power shovel another name for front shovel? If yes, let's redirect front shovel to power shovel. Comments? --Roger Chrisman (talk) 22:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Power shovel, front shovel, steam shovel, are all names for Excavator, merge into one article. WikiDon (talk) 00:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Strictly speaking your are correct, but there is a huge difference between these specific types of excavator. Much like saying a NASCAR, dodge neon and corvette are all names for a racecar. It seems the front shovel is used more like a front loader while an excavator has multiple uses other than just loading out quarry material. Steam shovel is a historical item no longer in use, unless someone knows of a new model containing a reactor. The Dragline excavator has not been mentioned here or the yarder, both of which could also be called excavators. The typical excavator e.g. CAT 345 would fit in the bucket of the typical power shovel. I doubt anyone would use a 345 for mining overburden removal in any serious manner. Just my opinion but I think do not merge. Granite07 (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Air-track (machine)

Air-track (machine) returned to Engineering_vehicle#Types list per this Engineering vehicle comment on my talk page (retitled for clarity by me) by User:Granite07. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 00:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Compactor

Compactor has its own page. I propose compactor in the types list link to that instead of to Soil compaction. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 06:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. -- Roger Chrisman (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Gee Roger, adding a note to change something and then just changing it is just like changing it and not leaving a note in the first place. WikiDon (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
If you want to undo that edit, do and say why here. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
No, I just want to scold you over procedure. :) WikiDon (talk) 00:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Be aware there are many different compactors and half a dozen applications. Not all are specifically represented on one page. Classification is by done by two methods 1)work type with reference to equipment 2)equipment type with reference to work application. An example is a page on asphalt may have a discussion on compactors used, e.g. breakdown and finish. While a page on compactors may discuss soil compactors, e.g. sheepsfoot and smooth drum. Classifying all compactors under a generic "compactor" is an oversimplification of the topic. The engineering, quality control and production planning involved in smoothing an asphalt roadway is complex. Granite07 (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Just realized that I used the wrong terminology in the above comment. The reference to sheep's-foot roller should be pad-foot roller. Thought about it and realized the mistake is from reading this equipment page. This is a good example of why we must be accurate and precise with our terminology. The picture of the landfill compactor has pad-foot rollers not sheep’s foot rollers. This link describes the difference. http://www.vannattabros.com/iron7.html Granite07 (talk) 16:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please no destructive revert

Granite07 has reverted my careful edits to Engineering vehicle#Types, first from an IP at Stanford University (171.66.40.26) and then logged in as Granite07, without explaining why my work needed reverting. I feel both were destructive inappropriate reverts. (This careful merge subsequently lost.)

I wrote most of the equipment operator page last year and can attest that it is outdated to the heavy equipment page and needs a through rewrite from someone who is an operator. I would not waste my time merging any content from that page.

I don't know how to proceed. We need help. Granite07, please undo your revert. If something is not right, please fix it instead of whole sale revert. No one owns Wikipedia. Please help us all improve it. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 01:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Roger for allowing this opportunity to discuss your recent edits. You are correct that explaining why work needs editing is important. Please give the same courtesy to others when you edit. I and many others have worked on this page for over a year and you arbitrarily deleted content with a noticeable lack of familiarity. I am sorry to be so blunt but I am certain if you proceed in this way on other Wikipedia articles you will be meet with blanket reverts as well. If you wish to edit syntax and add content then please do. But please refrain from deleting content without proper discussion. In the postings above there is no preliminary discussion prior to your major content edits. Once again if you have any questions about equipment or construction in general I am happy to discuss this with you. Familiarize yourself with the topic a bit, it is not rigorous. Thank you, sorry for the blanket revert but... and I look forward to your future edits. 128.12.170.114 (talk) 03:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Granite07 (talk) 03:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay. I'll add sections to this talk page to discuss specific editorial considerations and seek consensus. Any thoughts about Image suggestions, below? Thanks, --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Let's add images to Engineering vehicle as space permits so newcomers can visually learn vehicle types. The Engineering vehicle#Types section has room for 5 or 6 thumbnail images (they float right by default). A few common types whose correct name is often unknown to newcomers is what I'm thinking (loader, grader, scraper, compactor...) --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Front loader
Front loader
Grader (plowing snow here)
Grader (plowing snow here)
Military scraper
Military scraper
Landfill compactor (sheep's foot)
Landfill compactor (sheep's foot)

Please add image suggestions or comments, below (and sign --~~~~)...

Loader
Yes, add --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC).
Grader
Yes, add --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC).
Scraper
Yes, add --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC).
Compactor
Yes, add --Roger Chrisman (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC).
Not sure what anyone else thinks, but if you are adding content, I would go ahead and add. If you want to delete anything than give a heads up and a few weeks notice first. All these pictures look good and in my view will add to the article.
classifications per CAT performance handbook, these classes are used for accounting purposes, e.x. equip. no. 12-345 is a wheel loader, likely 345th purchased
  • wheel loader (classification 12)
  • motor grader (classification 2)
  • wheel tractor-scraper (classification 8)
  • wheel dozer-soil compactor (classification 11)
--Granite07 (talk) 06:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, added the thumbnail images to Engineering vehicle#Types. I have not used their CAT performance handbook names because Wikipedia is not the CAT performance handbook and has different editorial goals and standards. I will open a separate Talk page section to discuss common names of things. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You might also want to do a gallery are the bottom of the page. WikiDon (talk) 00:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
[Moved discussion of names from here to #Common names, below. --Roger Chrisman (talk) 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, the comment is not for you so disregard. Sorry to disappoint you with my irrelevant ranting and arbitrary attacks. I am disappointed to hear my Wikipedia contribution net value is now lower as a result. The comment is directed at Roger’s image descriptions. Sorry for causing your confusion, I will use one less ':' next time. Granite07 (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A gallery would be most useful for visually identifying equipment in the Types section, as a sub-section of it like this:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
==Types==
the types list here
===Gallery===
the gallery here
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
I could move the images out of the right side of the types list into there to start the gallery. Does anyone object to my trying this? --Roger Chrisman (talk) 22:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names

The article will benefit by following Wikipedia's naming conventions. The capitalization and use of common names guidelines are two areas where the article can be improved. I propose links, eg. in the Types list, wherever reasonable and practicable, follow the correct article title naming conventions so that they are simple predictable links and that pages be moved if necessary so that their titles conform to these guidelines, too. I will help when I can, starting with the easy capitalization changes. (See also discussion of moving this page, above.) --Roger Chrisman (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you put an example of what you are talking about here? WikiDon (talk) 00:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Example
use Dump truck
not Dump Truck
(Lowercase second and subsequent words) --Roger Chrisman (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Common names

You do not seem to fully appreciate the importance this book [CAT performance handbook] has within the construction industry. This is the book used as a text book in nearly every heavy equipment class taught. Most all equipment managers have one on their desk. You must understand this book might be produced by CAT but it is general to any equipment regardless of manufacturer. This is the de facto standard within the industry. If you spend much more time researching heavy equipment, you will quickly realize there are as many terms for equipment and ideas about equipment management as there are equipment operators. The CAT handbook provides an easily accessible standard. Personally, I do not care what brand of equipment I use and do not use CAT equip specifically unless the company owns it. The most important criteria for me is who is at the other end of the phone and how responsive is she to my needs. I only use the book for reference. Best advice I have is you do too, especially since I doubt very much you will be maintaining "different editorial goals and standards" in Wikipedia without this book. Maybe you should scope out the great selection of sourcable material available for heavy equipment and then see how much of that is not derived directly from the CAT handbook. Granite07 (talk) 07:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I can't read correctly anymore, which maybe true, the title of this section is "Images" [It was. So I have moved this here under "Common names" --Roger]. And all I said was maybe you might want to put in a gallery. So, what the heck? Been spending to much time in the shop with the doors closed and all the engines running? Try to keep discussions in there relevant sections and not jump on me about what I think of something else. Your credibility meter just went down, and this effects how I value your opinion on other topics. WikiDon (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, the comment is not for you so disregard. Sorry to disappoint you with my irrelevant ranting and arbitrary attacks. I am disappointed to hear my Wikipedia contribution net value is now lower as a result. The comment is directed at Roger’s image descriptions. Sorry for causing your confusion, I will use one less ':' next time. Granite07 (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


I believe Granite07 was replying to my (Roger's) comment "Okay, added the thumbnail images..." above in #Images in which I explain why I did not use the CAT performance handbook names in the thumbnail image captions. This is indeed now about names of things. [So I've moved this part here from #Images.] --Roger Chrisman (talk) 22:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Resources & Content

Proposal for content change:

  • Adjust content to reflect this source http://www.constructionequipment.com/ in addition to CAT handbook.
  • Several civil engineering researchers publish journal articles about equipment technology, these can be found on google scholar, using this source create section on GPS and equipment technology

Granite07 (talk) 00:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Eventually the types section of this article should be removed and replaced with a reference to the. Until all the equipment listed on the EV page has articles this section needs to stay so as to let the reader know there is more equipment than listed on the category page. Some of the equipment types that are redundant with the category page could be removed now. Types that link to subsections of a page should be retained as well as those types with no article to link to, for examples highway end dump and pipelayer. Granite07 (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)