Talk:Enfield Poltergeist
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article falls under the scope of WikiProject Paranormal, which aims to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the paranormal and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the attached article, help with current tasks, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and discussions. |
| Start | This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. |
 |
Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information. |
Contents |
[edit] Deletion and bias
I don't know what's happened here, but someone seems to have deleted a large amount of informtaion on this page. Also, it seems quite biased. Using the term "menopausal bint" in an unbiased article? Perhaps someons idea of a joke.
φφφ
It still seemed rather biased when I found it - although the "menopausal bint" comment had thankfully been edited off. I hope I've restored some sense of balance - and some content (which seemed to still be absent) - to it. It's too easy to take sides on debates about the paranormal and rewrite things to suit one's prejudices. Enfield is an interesting case, and its a shame to dismiss it. I've heard Maurice Grosse's tapes of the false chords being used for sustained periods, and they are genuinely mystifying - you're not supposed to be able to use them for that length of time. On the other hand some of those involved did confess faking some of the phenomena. The case deserves some objectivity, which hopefully on 27/01/06 I've restored. How long it will last is anyone's guess though... JN
φφφ Having polished the article up, corrected several inaccuracies, put the whole thing into an objective register it was reverted back to a much earlier version, which again had the term "menopausal bint", it also also leant towards libel in its remarks towards Maurice Grosse and Guy Loyon-Playfair. So I've changed it back to how it was and hope I've not just started a revert war... JN
φφφ Seems the epithet has a life of its own, keeps coming back. Have removed it (2/10/06) while trying to preserve skeptical tone. Skepticism cannot legitimately be extended to imputation of motive or to distressed mental states without evidence.
φφφ
attention! *i* am the one who started this article and wrote the original with the correct details and her description as MENOPAUSAL BINT. bint = colloquial name for woman stemming from the arabic "daughter", and she was menopausal at the time.
anyway anyway anyway.. everyone knows it's a big fraud. =)
φφφ The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
As the name suggests the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the cold, fair, analytical description of debates. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed.
φφφ As the article stands it uses a derrogatory slang term for a woman (certainly in the UK "bint" would be highly derrogatory).
It also claims she was menopausal - what for the entire duration of the alleged phenomenon? menopausal for two years??? Did she suffer from some rare medical condition? If so why isn't this noted?
The details provided are of dubious accuracy - not to mention extremely biased. The current article seems to rest on contested information from the gutter press (News of the World - roughly the equivalent of the National Enquirer in the US) and a glossy woman's magazine!
It also entirely ignores the use of the false chords during the alleged possession which is one of the most interesting features of this case.
I also think it libels Maurice Grosse and Guy Lyons-Playfair to say they were just out for fame. From having heard Maurice Grosse speak I don't believe he was out for fame. He is one of the SPR's most respected investigators, he currently chairs the Spontaneous Phenomena Group, although there would be significant differences of interpretation with him over this case from other members of the SPR (which was mentioned before this article was simply reverted back to its original form, without the revert being noted...). But, I think what's currently written amounts to a subtle, yet very real, personal attack on his integrity which is out of place in an encyclopedia.
I would agree with the above writer that an encyclopedia entry should not adopt a sceptical tone. Indeed, I seem to remember the guidelines for Wikipedia actually arguing for neutrality and objectivity in entries.
Personally I'd revert it back to how it stood on Feburary 6 2006 (the last change before it was reverted back to the original again) as being a more accurately researched and more objectively written piece that better meets the aims of Wikipedia... although I'm hardly unbiased having made several of the revisions that lead it to taking that form. JN
[edit] The truth is out there
I investigated a supposed haunting where the activity was centered around a woman(going through menapause) of 51 and her daughter of 13(on her period). A number of unexplainable things where happening,lights blowing,strange smells,cold spots,noises,beds being shaken. I did not witness the bed shaking but the lights and the cold spots i did. I had gone into one of the rooms where the activity was strongest and captured a grey looking man on film. As i did this i felt extreme stomach pains and sickness. During the investigation we witnessed strange blinking lights and footsteps. As a investigator i beleive what i see with my own two eyes and i have witnessed such things. Back in the 70's such information on paranormal activity was not wideley available. The family of the Enfeild case could not have possibly know all what happens at a haunting and could not have faked all of the evidence!! see our work at www.freewebs.com/psihull
why is a VERY biased investigator's statement included on this???
[edit] OTRS
Responding to an OTRS complaint, I have neutralised the article. I also added {{fact}} tags, and if these haven't been fufilled with direct citations per WP:RS, then a decision can be made as to whether to remove the statements all together. Daniel.Bryant 04:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clean-up and expansion
I've tagged the article for expansion and clean-up becuase as it stands, it's a very scrappy version, no details, no sources for statements made etc. I believe there's a good article inside there wanting to get out! But it definitly needs more details, citations for those details etc etc, the usual Wiki stuff. The Kinslayer 10:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What the heck's going on here!
This page really demonstrates the absolute weakness of Wikipedia. Several times this article has been developed, and expanded, but after all the contributions the original article crops up again, and again, and again, complete with it's bad grammar and libellous assertions.
Personally, I'd strongly suggest reverting to the version of the 6 August, which didn't have most of the current problems, and then locking the page for all time to stop these recurrent problems. If we don't the original submission will return every six months or so as it has been and make this page utterly pointless. There probably is a formal procedure to follow, but I'm not really _aux fait_ with all this wiki-stuff and wouldn't know what it was or where to find out how to do it. I just think the article should be accurate.
And as for the above comment's on the investigators statement, given the ridiculous article that's currently on display called into question his neutrality I personally believe he had every right to post it on the talk page. It is useful to remember that we actually have posted up there is a first-hand report which, whether you accept its conclusions or not or not, is evidence in the matter at hand, even potentially unique evidence unable elsewhere; and certainly a fair argument against the biased article wikipedia's currently displaying. JN
[edit] This article is probably the worst of all on Wikipedia
Some individual (or individuals) has come along here and decided to write up an article pushing his own POV all the way, stating his own assumptions and beliefs as hard fact. This is not acceptable on Wikipedia. This article should simply state known facts - what the claims are with regard to the phenomena, what fraud was uncovered, whatever phenomena that supposedly remains unexplained, skeptical analysis, and so on. It's that simple. The idea that this article should state as fact that the case was definately entirely fraud from start to finish is not acceptable, regardless of an editor's a priori assumptions and personal beliefs and bias. This case has never been conclusively proven to be a hoax, what any editor may personally believe one way or the other is irrelevant. To accuse Grosse and Playfair of consciously commiting fraud themselves without any evidence of any kind is straightforward libel and probably leaves Wikipedia in a situation where it could be threatened with legal action. None of this should be tolerated on Wikipedia. It really is not difficult to imagine a balanced, reasonable account of this case and it shouldn't be too difficult to put together. Anyone who disagrees and thinks the article should be written entirely according to their own POV, and insists on including unfounded allegations of fraud against investigators, should have their absurd contributions reversed immediately and should blocked from editing the page if their insist on continuing. 195.93.21.99 15:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the story? I just want to point out that while I completely agree with the many cases being made here for objectivity, and am personally very disappointed in this "non-entry", there is a writer above who says, "menopausal for two years??", who basically destroys his/her own credibility by not knowing the definition of "menopause". That being said, if there is actually a factual, reasonably unbiased article that explains the details of the Enfield Poltergeist, it would be nice if someone could restore it. I have never been left so unenlightened by Wikipedia.76.179.85.52 18:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Still going on
The rewversion to the POV version has happened again. I've made it a bit less awful, but this still needs work. This is yet another case of someone thinking his own opinion is the absolute truth. Totnesmartin 21:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Not being rude
In no way, at all do I think that my opinion is the absolute ruth. I simply wrote the article as how the television show presented it to me. I did not say that I believed the case of the Enfield Poltergeist. I just thought, I would write an article on the television show.
If it is not in the Encyclopedia format, I am sorry, but it's Wikipedia. You are welcome to edit it.
Mr Vamps 16:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
References
I see that there are very few references in this article. I know quite a lot about the case and would be willing to go through it and try to reference it soundly. What I am not sure about is what qualifies as a good reference for this type of subject. There will lots of stuff on websites for example and in books by people involved. I am not sure, however, whether these can be counted as very reliable. Advice welcome.Zeticulan (talk) 23:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
