Talk:Endre Johannes Cleven

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Contents 1 Admittedly a bit of a vanity piece, but notable 2 Image license issue 3 Source info 4 Timeline questions

[edit] Admittedly a bit of a vanity piece, but notable

Why? He was my grandfather, and maybe a bit more like me than seems possible; another black sheep and something of a cultural polymath and maybe a bit of a ruffian, too. Details of the relationship with the Hoines family over his marriage - effectively an elopement which scandalized conservative Skudeneshavn - with Margit, is family lore, as is the stuff about him being a medic. But his name still perks ears in both Skudenes/Karmoy and in Norwegian Canadian circles, and as the bio demonstrates his was not an un-notable life. I have copies of some of his music, which I'm tempted to post so they can be cited, but the copyright/estate status of them I'm not sure of; not that they're valuable and should be in the public domain . Not sure what happened to a huge folio of extremely gory pictures of battlegrounds and field hospitals in the Phillippines, but hopefully they'll turn up and didn't get ripped off from my storage (as a lot of things did, thankfully not much in the way of family stuff) or lost as was some music and his discharge papers in a garage sale when a drunken roommate threw out the box (when I was away) because he didn't like the picture of Mozart on the cover of the book of piano sonatas that was the top article in it....grrr. Time eats all things, as does foolishness. Anyway, I asked User:Jack O'Lantern to do the draft for me, as I didn't feel right in trying to condense it myself; but as you can see by the comment-outs, which will be transferred as notations/quotations to this page in a later edit (maybe tomorrow), there's other interesting bits that could/should go in the article. Military portrait next; I think of the US Army Musical Corps uniform, I'm not sure; could be the RCV uniform, but looks older than that. Trying to dig up his was record at the nat'l military archives for another reference or an external link.

[edit] Image license issue

wanted to view it to see what the problem with the tag was, but apparently the image itself has already been deleted (48 hours after posting, kinda hasty). Hm. It's back now - why would that be?Skookum1 04:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Now PD-self, but kept here for future ref as main page will have different image in a few days....Skookum1 17:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The uniform looks like a standard CEF uniform to me - I've changed this but if you're positive it is US Army, it can be changed back.Michael Dorosh 17:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I was gonna say, the insignia look rather Canadian/British, I think we can trust your eye, though! heqs 18:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked close on a zoom view: it's a lyre, a musical symbol....Skookum1 19:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source info

What's the publication date of the newspaper article? If it's pre-1923, it is very likely public domain, and therefore could be included here verbatim (or sampled liberally/at will). It would be good referencing practice to include the publication info anyway. heqs 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I just noticed the "date uncertain" part, sorry. Would be good to have though, for the reasons I mentioned. heqs 03:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have other copies, one a different English translation and another the original Norwegian; and I think the Norwegian one at least is dated. The version linked at present is from a geocities website run by my first cousin-once-removed (usually called second cousin, but I've gotten more specific; in Norwegian a second cousin is someone of the same generation, not simply removed by one). Been looking for the Norwegian one, partly because it uses some "interesting" words, as my Norwegian-class teacher commented (archaic and/or dialect). Also trying to see what's in the other family archives in Winnipeg, Montreal and St. John, where the respective cousins live (all my uncles and aunt have passed away, as has my father), and hopefully the cuz I'm on good terms with in Wpg can get at the Winnipeg Free Press and local Sons of Norway files for more information; also the Walker Theatre; as noted in one of the in-line comments I'm trying to recover some of his compositions, other than the three songs and one choral work I have kicking around here; there used to be orchestral parts for theatre music, and hopefully someone bought them at the garage sale in question and might respond to a letter to the North Shore News, at least knowing what happened to them and if they're in the hands of a document collector, as also with his US Army discharge and some Canadian immigration/settlement maps; grrr...cross your fingers for me, and I'll make a point of writing the NS News tomorrow to get things rolling (well, I have to find the photocopy of the discharge first so that can illustrate the article/letter in the News).Skookum1 05:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline questions

-Cleven returned to Canada in April of 1903

When was he there the first time..?heqs

I think in the years before he enlisted in the US Army; he got around a lot in North America, from Iowa to Chicago and New York; from his travel itinerary I'm guessing he travelled from the Phillippines back to Norway via the Suez; he could have come this way, though, I'm not sure yet. I don't know if there's any family fonds that the Wpg branch might have; I have a letter in Norwegian from my grandmother to my father which I need deciphered/translated (old Norwegian handwriting, in old spelling, too), and it may have some clues.Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

-The couple had met during Cleven's return to Norway.

When did he return to Norway?heqs

Trying to sort that out; and at present I only have the Decorah Posten as a valid source; the rest is lore/hearsay, but my impression is that he courted her before 1903; Skudenes is a small place; it's hard to believe that they didn't meet in the first few days of his return. His family was not "native" to the island, or his father wasn't anyway (I've found out lately Ingeborg's name should be Haaland, not Hollan; pron. the same way, sort of, so Hollan may simply be an old spelling; and Haaland is a Karmoy name, though not closely related to the Hoines clan; although ultimately everyone's related within seven generations, it being Norway...); the poop I got during my visit there in 1975-76 was that the Cleven family moved away, other than to North America, and there was some bad feellings in the older Hoines clan about what was effectively an elopement (which is why the marriage wasn't in Skudenes....); I met my 104-year-old great aunt and the look she gave me when she realized whose grandson I was was chilling; he stole her younger sister, y'see...so there wasn't much information on him forthcoming in Karmoy itself ;-) Might be the other branches of that side of the family in North America - his brothers' and sisters' families - might have more information, but I'm not in touch with them, though the first-cousin-once-removed in St. John appears to have done his homework on that front; all I had was the names after my Norway visit (Hi Kris!)Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

-After the outbreak of World War I, Cleven, ranked "Captain", was appointed...

How did he attain this rank, when did he join the military, etc. Guessing it might be tied to the first time he was in Canada?heqs

I believe it was an appointment. His departing rank in the US Army was Sergeant. I think he signed up for the Canadian Forces (British Expeditionary Forces, actually, in those days) at the onset of WWI and began mobilizing to create the Royal Canadian Vikings; I'll know more if I hear back from the national military archives or get more materials from the cousins....Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see on the Officers' declaration paper that his rank was "Hon. Capt." ("Honorary Captain?" that would make sense...?) in the 197th (Vikings of Canada) Battalion, CEF "Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force" (Canadian Expeditionary Force)... profession: "Dominion Government Immigration Officer"... "To what unit of the Active Militia (Militia Act of 1855 is closest ref on WP so far) do you belong?: Prov. (Provisional?) Lieut. 96th Leg." (Legion?).... ...interesting. heqs 10:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Just trying to clarify the bio, the answers might be in the Posten article - which I haven't checked yet, just putting this here in case someone gets to it before I do - hope this helps. heqs 03:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No, that's good, they're good question and will get me to get the ball rolling on other sources and getting the documents recovered, etc. Might as well head down to the Scandinavian Centre in BBY (since I live near it...) this week to peruse the library; no one there seemed to know about him when I was taking classes there but you never know what's on the bookshelves or in the files....Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)