Talk:Endor (Star Wars)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 April 2006. The result of the discussion was speedily kept.

Contents 1 Endor Holocaust 2 Devestation of Endor 3 The mother planet 4 Endor IS the moon. 5 Endor Holocaust deleted 6 Origin of name 7 Endor holocaust again 8 Citations for other various facts 9 Article is not consistent with known information on Endor 10 Requested Move 11 Fair use rationale for Image:PlanetEndor.jpg

[edit] Endor Holocaust

Why is most of this article about fandom speculation? john k 15:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There was originally a separate article on the Endorian Holocaust. It was put on Votes for Deletion (here) but there was no consensus to delete, so the default was "keep". However, User:Carnildo insisted on merging it into this article, and I insisted that if it was to be merged it must be merged in its entirety (he tried trimming it down to a single paragraph). If you think this is inappropriate, I can try splitting it back out into its own article again and see whether he still objects. Bryan 16:45, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it should be a single paragraph. Fandom speculation doesn't seem particularly encyclopedic, and should be covered briefly, if at all. I'd prefer for it to be in its own article than to be cluttering up this article, though. john k 17:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I also preferred it that way, so I'll try splitting it back out again and see whether Carnildo still objects. Bryan 17:22, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't much care where it is, but it strikes me as quite silly to devote more than a paragraph or two to the subject. At that length, it would make sense to be a section of this article. --Carnildo 02:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It survived VfD so it's not to be deleted. Reducing a large article to a one-paragraph section of another article is tantamount to deleting it, IMO, so I don't consider that a reasonable option. Bryan 06:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Devestation of Endor

I have read that the wreckage hitting Endor is not the main factor in the devestation. Wouldn't the effects of one moon blowing up right next to another seriously affec the orbit of the other? -Josquius

Not for things with the relative sizes involved. The "moon" is about the size of the Earth, while the second Death Star is much smaller than Earth's moon, and mostly-hollow as well. --Carnildo 21:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The mother planet

I have read the novelization of Return of the Jedi, and it says that the moon's mother planet was destroyed years prior to the story. But I also noted that in the novelization, the moon was referred to as Endor. I think there's a problem there. Scorpionman 03:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Endor IS the moon.

This is a huge misconception among Star Wars folks, and I'm going to move the pages around to reflect it unless someone rebuts me here.

"The forest moon of Endor" does NOT meen "Endor's forest moon." Rather, it means "Endor, which is a forest moon." This is borne out by the Ewoks movie, which is subtitled "The Battle for Endor."

Text of this article should go under something like "Endor (Star Wars)", the link on the Endor disambiguation page should be changed, and a section should be added about this confusion.

Exactly. A good way to understand it is like, "The windy city of Chicago".--Daniel (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Endor Holocaust deleted

the Endor Holocaust page did not survive its latest VfD and has been deleted. The result was not merge, so attempts to merge its content into this article was not really appropriate. Plus now the Endor Holocaust section is longer than the rest of the page which is also not kosher. So, I am going to revert it back to the stub version that was here a week ago.--Geedubber 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This material should be considered on its own merits, information doesn't become radioactive on the basis of a VfD vote. Consider that one reason why the section was so small previously was because there was a whole separate article on the subject, and now that the whole separate article is gone the material left here might be too sparse. I've put in a compromise version that retains some of the most significant references (IMO) from the deleted article but which is only about two times more voluminous than the previous section. Bryan 20:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, i'm cool with your current revision. good compromise. I personally would remove the reference about the two ewok telefilms in relation to the endor holocaust though since they have nothing to do with it--Geedubber 21:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Odd, they're one of the first things to come to my mind when I think of "but what about [source]?" arguments that could be raised regarding this theory. They're the only other on-screen appearances of Ewoks and Endor (aside from the cartoon series, I guess. :) Bryan 00:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but that stuff happened before the EH supposedly happened. soooooo, wheres the connection? there is none. it sound like the article is agruing a point no one has brought up, ie "But what about the Ewok telefilms? the Ewoks were alive in those movies." Who are we agruing? --Geedubber 01:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The "Endor Holocaust" seems to only be fandom speculation, and, as such, that needs to be the very first thing mentioned about it. It should also be much shorter than it is now. john k 01:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of name

The article states, quite confidently, that the name Endor originates from J.R.R. Tolkien's work. But the name predates the Lord of the Rings due to its inclusion in the Bible. It's not far-fetched to think that Lucas used a Biblical reference, so I'm curious to know if what the article claims is a confirmed fact. --Bacteria 13:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm curious about that myself, especially given other names that may have Biblical sources (Anakin, for one). Any citations to prove it's absolutely LoTR-sourced? Shouriki 02:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Endor holocaust again

Looks like we've got another disagreement over whether it's appropriate to mention the Endor Holocaust thing again. Scott 110, Wikipedia does contain information about "fanon" things, and other "non-official" subjects, provided there's sufficient external source to work from. See Jar Jar Binks#Fate for another example, which doesn't even have citations like this one does. This particular subject has also been obliquely addressed in "official" sources, if that's your only complaint with its inclusion. Bryan 02:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Endor holocaust is a very good examples of what Wikipedia should include: out-of-universe perspective. It is more important to discuss a fictional event as to how it relates to the real world (which the Holocaust section does). Bryan is correct. — Deckiller 03:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The fan proponents of the Endor Holocaust mostly cite the canon visual evidence from the movies and from current scientific understanding to make their points. Their manner is reasoned, their arguments logical given their premises. Regardless of how accurate they are, or how driven by a desire to see Ewoks obliterated, (1) it is not Wikipedian original research, and (2) it is an Internet meme. It's as noncanon as Star Trek's Kirk/Spock homosexual relationship-focused fanfiction, but Google still finds about 3,780 search results for "Endor Holocaust," including fan theories on both sides. Advocating noncanon as canon is POV, but describing the controversy, is NPOV. The number of hours put into the argument on both sides and its notoriety on the Internet is what makes it notable. --205.201.141.146 23:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been removed again, this time due to the references not being "reliable." Ironic, considering that the Endor Holocaust section was the only one that actually had citations. Anyway, I dispute the notion that those aren't reliable sources. They have been extensively referenced all over the Internet for many years, being printed on paper is not the be-all and end-all of reliability. In this case all they were really being used as a reference for is the statement that there was significant fan speculation on the subject, which they amply demonstrate merely with their existence. Bryan Derksen 00:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The existence of a couple of fan documents about the "Holocaust" doesn't "amply demonstrate" anything other than some fans with lots of spare time. If you want to assert that there is lots of fan speculation about Ewoks being toasted by falling debris, please cite the survey or study that asked fans about what they think -- all I can tell right now is that the authors have been doing some speculating. While being printed isn't an end-all for reliability, I don't see anything in these essays that sets them apart from any other self-published material, i.e. I don't see any sort of editorial oversight -- and being self-published makes their status as reliable sources highly dubious. --EEMeltonIV 00:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations for other various facts

Since the infobox just got updated with a bunch of detailed numbers, I guess this is an opportune time to ask where these facts are actually coming from. The holocaust section is currently the only one that has any sources listed for it. Bryan 16:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I note there's still not any citations for the infobox, or for some of the other assertions in the article such as the origin of the name or the Endor/Moon-of-Endor distinction. Anyone got anything yet? Bryan Derksen 00:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article is not consistent with known information on Endor

To reaffirm and buttress an earlier comment, the entire concept of "the forest moon of Endor" as put forth in the article is incorrect. The Star Wars databank clearly states that Endor is one moon of nine, all of which orbit a lifeless gas giant. This clearly ends any speculation within the fictional Star Wars universe regarding the topic. In addition, references are made to the Alliance using the moon as a post-Battle of Endor sortie base and most Ewoks returning to a "simpler life" - something which appears inconsistent with an Endor Holocaust. Jon SirH 03:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

That's one source among many. Wikipedia isn't bound by the conventions of Star Wars fandom with regards to canonicity, so if there's various different sources out there that provide differing information it's all fair game to be described here. For example, the article currently says that the novelization of the movie stated that the planet this moon used to orbit was destroyed long ago. No amount of canonical amendments in subsequent works can change the fact that that's what the novelization said, so we shouldn't remove that fact from the article. By all means add information from the Star Wars databank as well, though. The important thing is to ensure everything's properly cited so readers can see the inconsistencies between sources for themselves. Bryan 10:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested Move

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PlanetEndor.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)