Talk:Endocrine disruptor

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The original text of this article comes from the public domain explanation of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency at [1]. Lupo 07:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

focus, wikify. Lupo

  • Removed most of the description of an endocrine system, clarified some language and added internal links. Kerowyn 02:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Theory

I removed weasel word warning, and weasel words. Will somone provide peer-reviewd citations for the points in this section? Pustelnik (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific Objections

For begging the question and Fallacies of definition, please see reference to epistemological inquiry, now ref. 15, already quoted prior to citation request. The quoted referrence now has an internal link to epistemology.Pustelnik (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Environmental Health Perspectives

Note that most of the "pro" arguments come from this one journal, and the "con" arguments are from multiple sources. Pustelnik (talk) 19:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History and Science

This section should be expanded. The whole concept of endocrine disruption was debunked by the National Academy of Science and the National Research Council in 1999. It is considered to be a prime example of "junk science".Pustelnik 00:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This section was deleted, as a neutral POV objection. I undid the deletion. The deleted section was well-referrenced. The concept of endocrine disruption, as well as the originator of the concept, have been discredited in the perr-reviewed scientific literature. I would accept criticism with documented, peer-reviewed referrences which show that any of these substances actually has an environmental effect.Pustelnik (talk) 04:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

the section was deleted again, and will be deleted every day until someone has the time to publish an unbiased and balanced entry for this concept. contrary to the claim of Pustelnik, the deleted section is not accurate. in fact it is profoundly biased.

his claim that "The concept of endocrine disruption, as well as the originator of the concept, have been discredited in the perr-reviewed scientific literature" is at best fatuous nonsense and at worst an outright lie. Tell me where Theo Colborn, Frederick Vom Saal, Shanna Swan and the hundreds of other researchers doing work in this area have been discredited.

Pustelnik cites one withdrawn paper from 1997 by John McLachlan as proof that endocrine disruption has been debunked, and conveniently ignores the fact that there are hundreds of wildlife studies that have been published? please.

    • This paper was the original basis for the EPA regulationsPustelnik (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

he is obviously completely ignorant of the mountains of peer reviewed material that demonstrates the effects of endocrine disrupting chemicals like polybrominated diphenyl ethers, bisphenyl A and many phthalates. endocrine disruption in a wide range of animal species is a well documented and widely accepted phenomenon and has been for at least 20 years.

    • It shouldn't be difficult to support these assertions, then. Will you provide referrences to peer-reviewed studies that show envoromental chemicals, in the concentrations seen in the environment, have a measurable effect on the endocrine system?Pustelnik (talk) 14:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

the suspicion that many synthetic chemicals have in utero effects and neonatal effects in humans is a valid and realistic concern, as evidenced by the debate around the causes of a whole spectrum of symptoms including the rising incidence of testicular cancer, hypospadias, abnormal sperm, infertility, early puberty in girls, autism.

ever heard of diethylstilbestrol (DES)? how about Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs)? maybe you remember Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane (DDT)? all endocrine disruptors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.110.141 (talk) 02:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It would help if you had the courtesy to sign your posts, and referrence your changes. The fact that some substances have hormonal effects is unquestioned. Endocrinology, pharmacology, and professional baseball depend on that fact. What is in question is the contention that these substances exist in the environment in concentrations that cause a biological effect. The concept depends heavily on a legal idea called the "precautionary principal" being applied to a scientific field. An example of this is your line that "there is a long list of chemicals which might be endocrine disruptors, but have not been proven". The concept of making laws based on someone's unproven speculations is frightening, and certainly not scientific. For example, I could state that your unrefferrenced article might be totally misleading, and therefore you should be banned from contributing to Wikipedia. Merely an application of the precautionary principal. Pustelnik (talk) 13:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

i am sorry i made the edits without signing in. your claim that the theory of ED is considered "junk science" was very frustrating.

i will be happy to provide the information you have requested, and make the entry as balanced as possible. it is ironic that you mention the phrase "precautionary principle", as that is the precise reason the EU decided to ban many of the phthalates and PBDE's in consumer products, because of their links to harmful human health effects. in their view there is more than enough evidence to support the banning of these chemicals. of course the EPA and the US government are more than willing to drag their heels and allow their citizens to be guinea pigs for the chemical industry, and their country to become a dumping ground for chemicals that much of the world is quickly trying to get rid of. there is hope though, Sears announced early in december that they were phasing out polyvinyl chloride (PVC) in all their products, precisely because of their estrogenic effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Milkandhoney1 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I expect that you will not delete the historical addition I just made. Yes it is important when the term endocrine disruptor was first used. In context, the concept involves a chemical, released into the environment, that works through the endocrine system to cause permanent damage. There is not a scientific consensus on the concept. There is a lot of debate on the potency of the effects (particularly of environmental estrogens), potential doses of these compounds (usually trivial, except for accidental releases of large stores of chemicals) and particularly over the existence or absence of synergism. The last point was what you deleted, involving the Arnold paper, which alleged a sysnergistic effect, and was later withdrawn, and the author found to have committed scientific misconduct. This paper was a major reason that the 1996 legislation requiring EPA action on endocrine disruptors was passed. Don't kid yourself. Sears decision was a marketing decision, not a toxicologic decision. If you disagree, show me what estrogenic effects their products had in humans. The term endocrine disruptor is junk science, bcause it is an example of begging the question. There is little experimental evidence that any of these substances, in the concentrations found in the environment, actually disrupt the endocrine system. You might want to switch to the term HAA (hormonally active agents). If you read the article on precautionary principal, you will know why I quoted it. The real question is what evidence of harm (or lack of harm) are you willing to accept before taking action. Personally, I'm not willing to accept endless position papers and review articles that just quote each other. Show me some real, experimental data. As my old professor used to say "In God we trust, all others need data." Pustelnik (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

i will add some good bibliographical info in the next few days, and include a lot of the studies which have been done. i'll also add as many citations as possible, and try to hone the entry further. when it come to human beings, the main thing with EDC's seems to be the effect they have on the developing fetus. This is the area where most of the recent research is focused. Shanna Swan believes that exposure to EDC's in the womb in the first trimester is far and away the most significant route of contamination. its obvious that adults have very little to fear from the low level exposure to these toxins, but the disruption of the exquisite and fragile hormonal balance of the developing fetus is obviously of great concern. it IS kind of shocking to find out that umbilical cord blood has been found to contain literally hundreds of chemicals in varying degrees, including DDT, PCB's etc. another disturbing fact is that the exposure of the male fetus to EDC's seems to be a much greater problem than female exposure. This is why the decision of the EPA to not test for prenatal exposure is so outrageous and disappointing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Milkandhoney1 (talk • contribs) 06:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Integrity of the findings

  • Remember the scare over chemicals, including pesticides, that supposedly acted as endocrine disruptors? Endocrine disruptors purportedly interfered with our bodies' hormonal systems, potentially harming all sorts of growth and developmental processes.
  • One of the original research papers that got this whole thing started, published in in the journal "Science" in 1996, was eventually retracted. Neither the author nor any other researchers could duplicate the findings. [3]

Anyone seen the original Science article or the retraction? How about the quote from Office of Research Integrity saying that Arnold

"committed scientific misconduct by intentionally falsifying the research results published in the journal Science and by providing falsified and fabricated materials to investigating officials," and that "there is no original data or other corroborating evidence to support the research results and conclusions reported in the Science paper as a whole." [citation needed]

I want to know if our article on "endocrine disruptors" is scientifically sound. --Uncle Ed 22:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The scientist who faked his findings was reprimanded by the U.S. goverment:

Steven F. Arnold, Ph.D., Tulane University: Based on the report of an investigation conducted by Tulane University, dated July 16, 1999, and additional analysis conducted by ORI in its oversight review, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) found that Dr. Arnold, former Research Assistant Professor at the Center for Bioenvironmental Research at Tulane University Medical Center, engaged in scientific misconduct. Dr. Arnold committed scientific misconduct by intentionally falsifying the research results reported in Table 3 of a paper published in the journal Science [footnote: Steven F. Arnold, Diane M. Klotz, Bridgette M. Collins, Peter M. Vonier, Louis J. Guillette, Jr., John A. McLachlan. "Synergistic Activation of Estrogen Receptor with Combinations of Environmental Chemicals." Science 272:1489-1492 (June 7, 1996) (hereafter referred to as the "Science paper")] and by providing falsified and fabricated materials to investigating officials at Tulane University in response to a request for original data to support the research results and conclusions reported in the Science paper. In addition, PHS finds that there is no original data or other corroborating evidence to support the research results and conclusions reported in the Science paper as a whole. [4]

This is an example of scientific fraud which environmentalists used to get a ban on something which turned out not to be harmful after all. --Uncle Ed 01:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't rush to throw the baby out with the bathwater. ECDs as a subgroup of pharmacuetical and personal care products (PCPPs) are of real concern. They are well documented in the water ways of the US and throughout the world. Just bescause a research committed fraud doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. His ethical issues have little to do with whether or not this is an actual issue. ECDs and of PCPPs are well documented in their disruption of sensitve aquatic species. the effects on man are a little more compicated to document, as we don't have a cloned version of people, similar to what we have with white mice, to say what happens with certainty. This is an emerging issue that will be getting more and more press at times progresses, so try to empty your cup from time to time. http://www.epa.gov/esd/chemistry/pharma/faq.htm FOK SD OA 16:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

If you click on the above link, you are directed to http://www.epa.gov/ppcp/ , which states: "To date, scientists have found no evidence of adverse human health effects from PPPC (Pharmaceuticals and Personal Care Products as Pollutants) in the environment." Pustelnik (talk) 14:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Original article PMID 8633243 Study not confirmed, using the same and other methods PMID 9075711 Retraction PMID 9254413 Pustelnik 21:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute Jane Fisher Reference

This is a review article, not an experimental study. It does not claim the phthalates feminize the genitals of infants, nor does it postulate that any of the effects of phthalates are mediated by endocrine mechanisms. It speculates that there are some effects on gonadal (not genital) development, but does not specify an endocrine mechanism. Pustelnik (talk) 03:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right. I meant to reword the sentence to bring it in line with the reference and forgot. I just made the change, hopefully this clears things up. Thanks for pointing this out. Yilloslime (t) 03:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)