Talk:Enûma Eliš

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Contents

[edit] Notice Regarding the Abuse of the NPOV Policy

There appear to be several individuals who insist on comparing the attributes of the gods in Enuma Elish with the god of Genesis, noting that the Genesis god is "loving and caring" while the Mesopotamian gods are "uncaring and random." This is not the place to argue about which god is better. Comparisons with Genesis should be limited to the critical-historical sphere, and should not take religious objections to critical-historical scholarship into account. Wikipedia is theologically neutral- we do not make disparaging comments about any religions, or about religion in general. However, in the same vein, we do not refrain from stating the general consensus of scholars in a relevant field of study just because some people may have religious objections to the existence of that field of study in the first place. Nor is it appropriate to post religious objections to this field of study in the middle of a paragraph describing the current academic consensus.--Rob117 21:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

-aint it great that mythology, being derived from and messing up the truth of what really happened as said in the bible, confirms all this historical stuff to those who are proof obsessed?

How would the Bible's similarity with pre-existing mythology prove it's accuracy? That seems to be.. the opposite of a logical conclusion. It might suggest some truth or a grain of logic leading to similar conclusions, but certainly not that the Bible version is true. If anything it suggests that the Bible version is plagerised or a derivitive work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.109.131 (talk) 08:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Conformity With The Previous Notice Regarding the Abuse of the NPOV Policy

In agreeing with the referenced notice above it should be noted that there exists a scholarly community who advocate the position that the Enuma Elish is derived from the Genesis account or that the two share a common tradition source. I made a small edit in the Genesis section of the entry to include the position of that group.

[edit] Genesis Comparisons

While it is important to discuss the reasons the cited scholar believes that the Enuma Elish and Genesis are not related stories, his assertions must have been spurred by some previous comparisons. It seems that those arguments need to be included and cited to maintain a more impartial and encompassing POV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.202.184 (talk) 09:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Hi everyone,
I'm new to this article, but when I looked at the history, I was surprised that someone had erased all arguments for Genesis being related to Enuma Elish, replacing them with counterpoints. Unfortunately, since the original points were missing, all that was left was a series of counterpoints with no context. Unless you had a background in the subject, it was hard to tell what was going on.
I restored the original arguments for Genesis being related to Enuma Elish. However, I also kept the counterpoints that they aren't related. It seemed like the easiest thing to do, NPOV-wise, was to make two sections, one saying "this is a list of arguments that the two are related" and the other saying "this is a list of arguments that they aren't related." Hopefully, if someone disagrees with one of the points in these lists, they will add a counterpoint to the appropriate list-- rather than ERASING arguments that they disagree with.
NPOV is your friend,
--Glistenray 14:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
that there is a loose relation between the EE and Genesis is absolutely undisputed. Both are texts growing out of the general mythological milieu of the Ancient Near East. The debate surrounds the question just how direct this relation is. dab (𒁳) 08:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes. A few points: (a) If you're going to change the orientation of the section from EE/Gen to EE/Tanakha, you need to spell it out - I think EE/Gen.1 would be easier to handle. (b) The article needs to place both EE and Gen1 in time (this is one reason why I'd like to restrict the subject to to EE/Gen.1) - Gen.1 can be shown to have been composed post-Exile, so that the influence runs one way, Genesis 1 based on EE, not vice-versa and not both based on some other source. (c) The last thing: Gen 1 isn't just a retelling of EE, it's a deliberate inversion, intended to denigrate the Babylonian mythos and celebrate the power of Elohim - this was Wenham's proposal and is pretty well generally accepted. PiCo 08:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC) I'd be strongly inclined to drop the "opposing views" or whatever it's called - no mainstream scholar that I know of denies the EE/Gen 1 connection.PiCo 08:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
this whole thing is entirely unsourced at present. We need a couple of references even for the mainstream views. The non-mainstream stuff of course absolutely needs a reference, or failing that belongs removed. dab (𒁳) 09:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I would rather expect to find connections between Enuma Elish and the Torah creation stories, but I have to say the section simply doesn't seem convincing at all. Can we get some references for both the pros and cons, and especially flesh out the pros? There's not a whole lot there. For example, that there were six generations of gods doesn't seem particularly important in connection to the 6/7 days of creation, but since it's mentioned as a parallel I imagine there's more to it -- can this be made explicit?
CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Parallels between Gen 1 and EE, to be added to as opportunity permits and until there is enough material assembled to revise the section, all from here:

  • Both begin with a primeval, uncreated chaos (Gen. 1:1, bereshith bara elokim, "When in the beginning of God's creating..." - not, incidentally, "In the beginning God created..." - and EE, When above, the heavens had not been named,

(And) below, the earth had not been called by name...).

  • Both make reference to a primordial "wind" associated with Creation (Genesis, "and a wind from God sweeping" (not a spirit, which was introduced in Christian times, and not hovering, which is simply wrong for the Hebrew); EE has the four winds begot by the sky-god Anu, plus seven more created later - the EE winds are used for subsequent acts of creation, but the Genesis wind never makes a reappearance). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.189.134.3 (talk) 09:13, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship to Tanakh

I've substantially rewritten this section, drawing heavily on the Encyclopedia Judaica. Unfortunately the EJ is not free - you have to pay to read it on-line. But for those willing to pay, please check whether I've used it in a responsible manner.

Also, I've made the point that it's impossible to compare the EE and Genesis based on English translations - the English is only an approximation to the Hebrew, and carries a lot of ideological baggage. I've tried to find the best, most accurate translations, but I'm aware that this is a contentious area. Others might like to come in on this.

Finally, I've quoted Chris Heard's Higgaion blog as an authority for a quote, but, though Heard is a highly qualified scholar, but, it's a blog. If a better source for the same thing could be found, it would be better. PiCo 06:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are a distinct improvement over what was there before. However, I think it's fairly common now to see the EE and Genesis as dependent on Canaanite myth (this also applies to the combat myth stuff in the rest of the OT). So we might want to expand the scope of the section beyond the bible, to cover the EE's relationship to NE texts/mythology more generally. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you please check some archaeological works and list the dates which make EE dependent on Canaanite myth. Thanks 4.249.198.207 (talk) 00:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translation of Rosh as wind

Can someone please cite where they are reading that the Hebrew word "rosh" is more correctly transliterated as wind (not spirit - as in "the spirit of God")? In Brown - Driver - Brigg it is described as meaning either wind,Sarahgel (talk) 05:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC) spirit or breath and Strong’s Concordance shows multiple usages of it under each of these meanings. I would really appreciate being able to reference the scholarly articles that restrict "rosh" to the meaning "wind" in this particular usage as I cannot imagine the critical reasoning that lead to this conclusion.Sarahgel (talk) 05:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC). I will not preclude that the usage could specifically mean wind, however; I do not see how the argument can be made that it necessarily does. Also, as far as Brown - Driver - Brigg is concerned, the Hebrew word translated as hover does in fact mean hover and it is used only, I think, one other time in the bible to describe a bird hovering over its young. Where is the argument that this word means anything else? Finally, while I am no expert on the royal archives at Ebla, I think that if anyone is, additions of information about the bearing that these relatively newly discovered texts may have on this exploration into the relationship between the Babylonian creation stories and Gen1 would be very helpful. I have heard that they have some accounts of creation included in these texts. In addition, early forms of many words in the Hebrew texts are in the Ebla texts and this may help us in a more correct transliteration of the Hebrew text especially as it relates to the Babylonian creation myth(s).

For a discussion of the meanings of ruah, see Harry Orlinsky's commentary on the 1987 JPS translation of Genesis. Orlinsky notes that this word can be translated as "breath", "spirit" or "wind" depending on context, and gives reasons for favouring "wind" in this particular verse. (The linked article is quite long, but the relevant part begins slightly before the half-way point.) PiCo (talk) 06:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC) I've now edited the text to make clear that Orlinski's ruah=wind instead of spirit translation is only meant to apply to to this specific verse, not universally. PiCo (talk) 04:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Also http://open.yale.edu/courses/religious_studies/introduction-to-the-old-testament-hebrew-bible/transcripts/transcript03.html NJMauthor (talk) 00:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Higgaion reference

This would be a more useful reference if Higgaion explained what is combative about the Genesis story. I mean I want Heard to point to words that express combative issues. I have read the Tannakh in Hebrew (and the bits of Aramaic) many times and it's just not there. So Heard may regard his attitude as something that can't be gainsaid but he doesn't convince me he has read the original language. 4.249.198.207 (talk) 00:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)