Talk:Emperor Norton

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Emperor Norton is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 3, 2004.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept October 7, 2006 Featured article review Demoted July 7, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject California (Rated FA-Class) This article is part of WikiProject California, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale. San Francisco Bay Area WikiProject     (Rated FA-Class) This article is within the scope of the San Francisco Bay Area WikiProject, a collaborative effort to build a more detailed guide on Wikipedia's coverage of San Francisco and the Bay Area. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. FA This article has been rated as FA-class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale. WikiProject Biography     (Rated FA-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Royalty and nobility work group. Micronations WikiProject     (Rated FA-Class) This article is within the scope of the Micronations WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of micronations. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Archives

Talk:Joshua A. Norton/Archive01 2001-12-04 — 2005-05-08

Contents 1 Successors and claimants to the title 2 Birthdate in question 3 Math skills 4 Confusion and undeletion 5 Norton in Bonanza episode? 6 The Civil War 7 Naming of Emperor Norton 8 More Math skillz 9 Not Entirely Inconsequential 10 External Links 11 What a superb article - a masterpiece of good writing 12 Check out the "Legitimacy" section... 13 Internet 14 Trivia 15 Succession box 16 Factual issue in picture caption 17 Golden Gate bridge 18 The Return of the Emperor 19 FA status 20 Review of Joshua A. Norton 21 Adding some more information... 22 Requested move (old) 22.1 Survey (old) 22.2 Discussion (old) 23 Viewing problem in Firefox? 24 External links removal 25 Title Change 26 Bicycle 27 Emperor 28 Requested move 28.1 Survey 28.2 Discussion 29 Name

[edit] Successors and claimants to the title

Might it not be looked into if there was a successor named by J.A. Norton, and also I do believe there were claimants to his title appearing after his funeral. I have little way of locating any affirmation of named successors or claimants, at least in my present position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.159.226.227 (talk) 21:49, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Birthdate in question

According to William Drury's book, "Joshua Norton was born in the London borough of Deptford on a day lost to mortal memory. ... On May 2, 1820, when John and Sarah Norton arrived at the Cape of Good Hope with three small children, one a babe in Sarah's arms, John told an immigration clerk that the boy they called Joshua Abraham ... was two years old. So there you have it from a father's lips; he was born in 1818."

There's an LDS-submitted record at familysearch which reflects this: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/igi/individual_record.asp?recid=600000134529&lds=1&region=2

Drury's book is fairly well researched, including obtaining primary sources from South Africa. I'm not sure how reliable the Priors-Lee record is, given the seven year discrepancy. Is it worth noting in the main article? RJL20 23:50, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The Joshua Norton born in 1811 at Priors-Lee, Telford is a red herring. I removed him. That 1811 Joshua can be found listed in the 1861 Census living in Shropshire still. 1861 census. Telford most likely had no Jewish community in 1811, whereas Deptford certainly did. The birth range appears to be May 3, 1817 to May 2, 1818. [[User:Wilburbear|Wilburbear] 12 October 2005

[edit] Math skills

200,000 lbs of rice is 100 tons, not 90.

No it's not. To be precise it's 89.285174 (recurring) tons at 2240 lbs/ton.

As one might read at Ton, there's several different units known by that name. 200,000 lbs of rice would be 100 short tons, but just under 90 long tons. Short tons are probably what Norton and his fellow rice-market investors would have been using, since that was the preferred unit in the 19th century USA. Zack 01:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

And present-day America, also R'son-W 20:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion and undeletion

So, something here is kinda messed up. First, the damn article is deleted by a zealous admin or hacked account. Now it is a vandel page. WTF?? I move for undeletion and reversion to the unvandelized state, et cetera. Popadopolis 15:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

My error - I deleted the vandalized version while chasing down vandalisms from an anonymous IP, not taking the time to see that it was a legitimate article. I'm glad somebody fixed my mistake. - DavidWBrooks 15:54, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Then my apologies for being acusitory and hot-headed instead of actually trying to remedy the situation and whatnot. - Popadopolis 17:39, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Norton in Bonanza episode?

There used to be a "Television" subsection in the "Norton in the public imagination" section, with one entry:

• Bonanza, an American western television show, featured an episode titled, "The Emperor Norton." It first aired on February 27, 1966 as episode 225 in the seventh season. In the episode, Emperor Norton gets in trouble after calling for worker safety in the mines. As a result of his concern for the miners, his opponents attempt to have him committed. Mark Twain and the cast of Bonanza testify on Norton's behalf at a competency hearing. Norton's suspension bridge concept is also featured.

An anonymous editor, 24.7.63.62, injected this editorial comment below that entry:

[1] states that this entry is a complete lie. Bravo, but try somethign a little more obscure next time.

I confirmed that according to that webpage, episode #225 of Bonanza had nothing to do with Norton, so I have removed this entry from the article. However, it's possible that the webpage is in error, and it's also possible that the original author of this text got the episode number and/or season wrong. I'm not about to read episode summaries for all eight seasons of the show to find out for sure, so I defer to someone who is familiar with the show.

I would also like to remind everyone involved that around these parts, we assume good faith. Don't accuse people of lying without evidence (of lying, not just of error).

Zack 03:17, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The IMDB and other sites on the web certainly seem to think that Sam Jaffe played "Joshua Norton" in an episode of Bonanza which aired February 27, 1966. So it's either true, or a widespread lie, in which case the question is did Wikipedia contaminate the web with it, or did the web contaminate Wikipedia.- Nunh-huh 03:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

IIRC, the Wikipedia entry was added after, not before the other sites picked it up. I confirmed this entry some time ago. It's considered a "lost episode". --Viriditas | Talk 03:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Given that Bonanza started in 1959, an episode that aired in 1966 should have been part of the eighth season. It's not listed on the TVLand page for the eighth season either; however, given that IMDB and MSN say the show continued to 1973, I'm thinking TVLand is just plain incomplete and not a trustworthy reference here. I'm not happy enough with the situation to put anything back into the article yet, though. --Zack 05:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe the entry is correct and should be added back to the article. See [2]. --Viriditas | Talk 03:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Civil War

How did he react to it? The article is surprisingly silent on it. So is Wikiquote. Did he just ignore the war for all five years? The closest thing I got to it was an edict on Wikiquote for Lincoln and Congress to be replaced with Democrats. Johnleemk | Talk 20:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd assume he was in favor of the south, then. zachol 22:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The GURPS roleplaying game once had two books giving stats for historical figures, and Norton was one of them. It said during the War Norton wore clothing emblematic of both sides, as they were both his people.--Bedford ^Pray 02:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming of Emperor Norton

his name is Emperor Norton. this is what everyone called him, this is how he was identified and distinguished from the rest of the sea of humanity. in present times, this remains the name by which he is identified. no one know who the heck joshua whatshisface was, no one really cares. on the otherhand many folks such as me (and you since youre reading this) care about the person who once was Emperor Norton. now for some cold hard facts. lets let goodle measure the issue. search: emperor norton -encyclopedia, results: 987,000. search: emperor joshua norton -encyclopedia (the term emperor was added to weed out real live josh nortons), results: 144,000. cleary, the people know him as an emperor.

its a matter of prestige, by descibing him as a mere man the fact that he was trully an emperor is denigrated. i dare say some people believe the man to have been insane and for this reason refuse him the respect and good humor that people gave him in his own time. this is unacceptable. if you insist with your conventions to omit across the board the term emperor, perhaps "Norton I" would be better, this being the same prestige given to folks such as king james. Or even "oshua a Norton, Emperor of these United States and Protector of Mexico", following other convetion listed on this website. but calling him by his name and nothing else? that is heresy!

You are treading over a road well-travelled, my friend. See: Archive 1 (2001 to May 8, 2005 --Viriditas 02:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

He was a self-declared Emperor, true, but so were many who declared themselves "Emperor" or "King" in the past. The title should be changed to "Emperor Norton I", but have his full name in the first line of the Article. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 10:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

I just reread the archived talk; I hope you won't have to. I will summarize. Even though the article is such that no one could possibly be confused, Nunh-huh and later mav (who apparently wrote Wikipedia's naming conventions) argued that it would be misleading on our part to refer to him as "emperor." Similarly, any usages of the term in the article are in quotes now, in case anyone somehow forgot after the beginning of the article that Norton had no army. The majority of people who wrote on the talk page thought the usage of the descriptor "emperor," unadorned was fine, but Nunh-huh and his scare quotes seem to have won anyway. I don't think anything can be done now. If you're crazy, you can petition for it to be removed from featured status. Probably, though, it would be better to simply bridle in silent, impotent rage than to start another edit war. The pedants have won. &mdashVivacissamamente 13:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

How would it be misleading to refer to him as "emperor"? He was an "emperor". -Alex,12.220.157.93 22:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC).

Because he wasn't, and because people might infer from our titling the article in that way that he was. Thank you for providing additional evidence of this. - Nunh-huh 22:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

There's never been consensus here for that interpretation, Nunh-huh. Not everyone has the same world-view you have, it turns out. The evidence provided by Alex is that, despite the article not being titled "Emperor Norton", yet another reader has decided, simply based on the facts of his life, that he was, in fact, Emperor Norton (the one and only). He could only be demonstrating what you say if the article were titled "Emperor Norton". I'm surprised to see you making mistakes in basic logic. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could say I'm surprised to see that you think that factual errors are acceptable in an encyclopedia. - Nunh-huh 04:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, Nunh-huh, and please see your talk page. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

By Wikipedia naming conventions, Emperor Norton should be under Emperor Norton and not under a more obscure, more "correct" name. It is no more a claim that he was a "real" emperor (where do you go to get certified as a real emperor, anyway?) than the article Duke Ellington is an assertion that Edward Kennedy Ellington was a real duke. Nareek 05:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Nareek. He was known to the world as Emperor Norton I; that is how he should be known to Wikipedia. Greyscale 04:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

this article is about "Emperor Norton I" and it should be named "Emperor Norton I". --Isatay 00:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Emperor Norton didn't exist; Joshua A. Norton did. Besides, both "Emperor Norton" and "Emperor Norton I" redirect here. It should stay as it is. A better use time would be to fix up the article by improving the prose and providing cites, so it could regain FA status.--Paul 04:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Mark Twain didn't exist either. But that is how the world knows him, and it is how Wikipedia knows him as well. The same goes for Dr. Seuss, who was not a real Doctor. I would be curious to know how many people actually search for "Joshua Norton." It should do this as the other articles do--have the title of the article be the name by which they were known, and have the first line contain his given name. Greyscale 11:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking into it further, there are a plethora of people whose pseudonyms are more famous than their real names, and these always come first on other pages of Wikipedia. Look, for instance, at Larry the Cable Guy and Borat. Until recently, Jon Stewart's name was not actually Jon Stewart, but that was how he was always listed on Wikipedia. Lewis Carroll didn't exist either. Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky were all affectations, and they all became more well-known than their respective real names--Wikipedia honors this. Look at the page on pseudonyms and you will find that this is a pretty unanimous trend. Further examples include Andre the Giant, Woody Allen, Carrot Top, Jon Bon Jovi, Dr. Dre, Ricky Martin, Martin Sheen, and Vin Diesel. Given the utter dearth of precedent or support of the naming of this page, I will change it in a few days absent any legitimate objections. Greyscale 04:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The legitimate objections are listed above. If you want to rename the page, feel free to follow the instructions for requesting a controversial page move on [[3]] - Nunh-huh 04:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be complete consensus on this issue, aside from yourself. I will do as I have said, and change it in a few days, absent the presence of any new disagreeing parties or any new evidence of precedent. I do not see any controversy; the vast majority of interested Wikipedians have weighed in on this side. It is no more controversial than any of the examples I named above. I could go back to the stage names page and dredge up four dozen examples, but I would rather you used your own time for that. My point has been made. Greyscale 04:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, of course, you could do that, but the likelihood is that unless you use the proper process, the page move won't last very long. And once the proper process is initiated, we can discuss the difference between a stage name and one which is misleading. - Nunh-huh 04:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Demonstrate that there exists a controversy, or else the proper process is to use consensus. It doesn't matter whether the name by which he was known is misleading or not; it matters what it was. See the above example of Duke Ellington. Also, the three Soviet leaders I mentioned might have taken issue with their pseudonyms being mistaken for stage names. My point has been made; neither you nor I can do anything more than we have done to establish consensus. Unless you can find more Wikipedians who agree with you, I suggest you let the rest of us take action and change the name to something everybody else who has commented has agreed upon. I am done taking up space on this page. Greyscale 05:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The idea that calling him "Emperor Norton" is misleading is ridiculous. This is a man who is famous entirely for calling himself an Emperor. If anything, "Joshua A. Norton" is the misleading title, in that it doesn't follow wikipedia convention, and leads one to believe that the guy is best known as Joshua Norton. john k 05:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No one contends that "Duke Ellington" was a duke. Yet people even on this very page contend that "Emperor Norton" was an emperor. If there were less of that nonsense - including suggestions that the article incorporate a succession box for a position that never existed - then I might be inclined to agree with you. However, that nonsense persists, and calling the article "Emperor Norton" with no indication that it's a nickname rather than a title seems to confuse many people. In any case, my point was that there is a mechanism for page moves, and that Greyscale needs to go through it if he intends to make a change. - Nunh-huh 07:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you all should take a look at Wikipedia official policy before you do anything. Specifically, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people). The former says not to use honorifics like Emperor unless it's part of the title (ex. Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor is fine, but not King William I of England, instead William I of England). The latter says to avoid qualifiers and present the name in the most NPOV way possible. In this case, "Emperor Norton I" would fail NPOV because the article's title would present him as a real emperor when he is not. Duke Ellington is fine because 1) it is only a nickname and his most recognizable name and 2) he has been independently placed in the category of Jazz royalty by historians. Axem Titanium 21:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a "real name". All names are just arbitrary labels. It's not at all unusual for people to be known by several different names at once, or to change their name. Should the Ice T article be renamed to "Tracy Marrow" just because that's the name that he was given at birth, and the name he uses while filing his taxes? No, because the vast majority of people know him as "Ice T". Same with Emperor Norton. --24.58.14.1 20:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but what is the name on his tombstone?!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/02-Norton.jpg/180px-02-Norton.jpg
Next you'll try telling me Prince isn't really a prince.
192.85.47.2 21:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Math skillz

"Norton declared bankruptcy in 1858. He then left the city for a few years, and shortly after returning announced his title to the offices of the Bulletin."

How can he have left the city for a few years in 1858, and returned to declare himself Emperor in 1859? MorganLeFay 17:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that, too, as I read the article.--SVTCobra 01:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Haha! I like this guy.--Old Guard 01:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if this could be fixed — KillerDeathRobot 20:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Entirely Inconsequential

Whomever User 128.239.154.210 is, thanks for your edit! I totally agree that Emperor Norton's reign should not be called "almost entirely inconsequential." It's been featured in books, there's a bridge that may be dedicated in his name, he was a major influence on Discordianism, he may have inspired Mark Twain's character of the King in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, and his reign led to this article. That's not inconsequential! Binky The WonderSkull 17:45, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The statement wasn't that his "reign" wasn't mentioned, but that it was without consequence. Which is correct. - Nunh-huh 08:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

His "reign" may not have had any geopolitical consequences, but it certainly has had consequences. Events such as the details of Discordianism, characters in Huckleberry Finn, and the existence of this article are all consequences of his "reign." Rpresser 18:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

If anyone wonders why I added Extra Space after the External Links, it's because for some reason the Categories box was covering up some of the links. If anyone knows a better way to fix this go for it! Binky The WonderSkull 18:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What a superb article - a masterpiece of good writing

What an absolutely superb article. It is factual, funny, fair and captures the context of the world Norton lived in perfectly. No wonder it is a feature article. It is one of the best things I have read anywhere. This article shows off Wikipedia at its very best. Congratulations, Wikipedia, on this masterpiece. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 14:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Very much seconded. This is a fantastic article. — WCityMike (talk • contribs) 14:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Mighty fine article. Kudos to all who contributed. And, rest in peace Emperor Norton. You are missed even though I knew you not other than what the written word conveys. And, I really like the monument upon thine grave. Only a good people would honor thee thusly.ObbopObbop 21:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Check out the "Legitimacy" section...

I'm going to assume that that wasn't there when it was featured, as its riddled with citation signals! Is that section worth anything, or should it just be removed? If its kept and not cited I suggest someone put it up for delisting. 68.39.174.238 08:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I might also add that it was featured under the old system: Wikipedia:Archive/Refreshing brilliant prose - People and culture. 68.39.174.238 08:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sort of confused why "citations" are required - they're mostly general statements, anyway. Regardless, it would be better to find some citations, if they're needed, than to simply delete that section. It is at least slightly interesting, and it is a question about Norton. zachol 03:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Internet

Isn't the section on usenet posts a bit inconsequential? We can't go writing new sections everytime Norton gets mentioned on a forum.

• Agreed. That section should probably be gutted. --Improv 13:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I'm not going to point out specific items (I'd rather see a "lower" standard of inclusion), but for the record, there are arguably more trivial items in the "In popular culture" section. You aren't being fully balanced in your exclusionary principles. —Vivacissamamente 00:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. The "food" section in particular seems like the same sort of thing as the hotel. The idea of a "lodging" section seems weird, though--is there another category that it could be put under? Nareek 01:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

"Buildings," perhaps? In any event, since the hotel has been deleted, there aren't any items to put in that subsection. I said I didn't want to delete anything, but the more I look at "Emperor Norton is an occasional character in the web comic Thinkin' Lincoln," the more it irks me. I mean, I could put up a web page with bubble text emanating from a repeated drawing (vaguely resembling Norton) if I wanted, but I wouldn't link it on the page. —Vivacissamamente

The hotel text is still there in the History if you want to put it back. What about "Brands" as a category and put the hotel and the food stuff together? Nareek 10:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I recommend preserving all of the content but splitting it off to Joshua A. Norton in popular culture. See Category:In popular culture for similar articles. —Viriditas | Talk 10:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Such articles tend to become rat's nests--it might become necessary for space reasons, though. Nareek 10:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

In the interests of space and for preserving content that would otherwise be deleted as "trivial". —Viriditas | Talk 05:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Succession box

Preceded by position vacant

Emperor of the United States 1859-1880

Succeeded by position abolished

The removal of the succession box for Emperor Norton makes an untenable distinction between Norton and "real" emperors. All emperorship is based on self-proclamation and public recognition--that's kind of the point of Emperor Norton and why he has an article on Wikipedia at all. Nareek 10:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Real, schmeal. He's a real emperor as far as I'm concerned.

That said, there's no succession. He proclaimed the title himself, and nobody took it after his death. Not much point to a succession box with no succession. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's kind of like Highlander: there can be only one. The box sort of highlights that. —Vivacissamamente 10:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The intro highlights that. I don't see any reason to have sboxes where there's no succession. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

No such office, no succession, not an emperor. Pick any one: they all invalidate the idea of a "succession" box. - Nunh-huh 11:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically he was an emperor; I mean, it's not like it's a title that requires any qualifications. He wasn't a sovereign. But that's still three reason to dump the sbox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

He certainly wasn't an emperor. He wasn't the supreme ruler; he had no subordinate rulers, and he had no empire. - Nunh-huh 15:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of succession boxes that indicate that the holder of a particular title had either no predecessor or no successor. That's not an unfortunate necessity of the format; that's information. Norton's box happens to convey the information that he has neither. (You can probably find that Charlemagne had no predecessor in his article, and also work out who his successors were, but that doesn't mean his box should be taken away.)

Norton carried out the same kind of role as many ceremonial nobles; most people with titles these days have no formal powers. Often they're not officially recognized by their home countries. I can't help but feel that Norton's box is being questioned because he's not a "real" noble; if by that we mean that he's not descended from a certain set of medieval warlords, that's true, but I'm not sure why that's supposed to matter. Nareek 13:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You have a very distorted view of what emperors are. You seem to have no sense of why Charlemagne could be called an emperor (hint: he didn't proclaim himself); and seem to forget that he had successors. There are no emperors that are acclaimed as such in one city only. - Nunh-huh 15:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for speculating about my reasoning in the face of my stated reasoning.

There's no succession. "Emperor of the United States" only existed for the period of time that he proclaimed it. It didn't persist after his death (even as a vacant seat), it didn't exist before he proclaimed it.

He wasn't a sovereign. His position wasn't a practical one (and indeed coexisted with the recognized government), so he doesn't fit into any timeline (like a timeline of leaders of the United States).

You mention Charlemagne. Charlemagne claimed several pre-existing-but-vacant thrones, several of which were later held by others. Additionally, he fits into timelines of leadership of various nations/regions/states/whatever.

I don't see what purpose the successionbox serves in this article, other than emphasis of something already stated repeatedly in the article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems clear that the actual purpose is to falsely label Norton an emperor. It falsely claims there was a "vacant position" of "Emperor of the United States" before Norton (there wasn't: the United States is a republic); it falsely claims Norton occupied a position of "Emperor of the United States" (he didn't: he called himself that, but there was no such position); and it falsely claims that after Norton's death the position was "abolished" when in fact there was no such position to be abolished. As the box presents nothing but misinformation, it must go. - Nunh-huh 15:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nunh-huh that the template misrepresents the existence of such a title before or after Norton's proclaimation of it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Succession boxes in any case are present in articles for ease of navigation, which is not a consideration when they navigate to nothing. - Nunh-huh 15:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

In terms of process, there was a change made to the article that some people approved and others disapproved. Why is it that the change should stand while we hash out whether it should or not? It seems like the disputed tag is the normal way to deal with such issues. Nareek 16:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

No one ever challenged his claim or disputed his title. Emperors aren't elected anyway (except for the Holy Roman Emperor). A succession box isn't necessary until someone becomes recognized as the second Emperor of the United States.Antimatter 00:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Or a first. - Nunh-huh 00:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I went to the talk page to suggest a succession box and found this argument and that someone already thought of it. All I can say is that I think some people should get off their high horses and let something hilarious by for a change. What about the title of emperor under his photo? Why not delete that then? Mac OS X 23:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you add one (like above or below) and see what happens? Who knows how many supporters of this idea there may be? --Paul 00:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Preceded by (none)

Emperor of the United States 1859-09-17 — 1880-01-08

Succeeded by (position vacant)

This is ridiculous. Norton was not Emperor of the United States, in that the United States is a country governed on the basis of a Constitution that enshrines a Republican form of government and disallows titles of nobility. That government had de facto authority over the whole United States during the time of Norton's life, with the exception of four years when several southern states declared themselves an independent state, the CSA, which had likewise a republican government and forbade titles of nobility, and was recognized by all foreign states as the legitimate government of the area. Norton's claims don't meet any kind of reasonable test for whether someone was an emperor. Henri V was recognized as such by numerous French monarchists, but note that we only call him "king of France" in a "titles in pretense" box. john k 16:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. And Wikipedia isn't a joke book, so "hilarious" isn't a valid reason. Eric119 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a succession box is NOT appropriate in this case. However if it were, it would certainly read as follows:

Preceded by (none)

Emperor of the United States 1859-09-17 — 1880-01-08

Succeeded by Widow Norton

Shaundakulbara 18:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factual issue in picture caption

"Emperor Norton regularly strolled the streets of San Francisco in an elaborate blue uniform complete with tarnished gold-plated epaulettes."

Is it possible to have tarnished gold-plated epaulettes? Gold doesn't tarnish.216.52.69.217 19:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe they were just really dirty? --maru (talk) contribs 03:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Where the gold-plate rubs off, the epaulettes will tarnish. Nareek 11:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Gate bridge

IIRC, The History Channel did a show on Emperor Norton I and at the end showed a plaque by the Golden Gate bridge with Norton's decree about building the bridge. Is that a real plaque or something THC cooked up for the show?

• Probably true. Norton in his lifetime said that something like the suspention bridges built of vines by Amazon jungle natives should be built where the Golden Gate now stands. While the Golden Gate does have supports, documentaries about Norton have said (accurately or not) that it is a sort of suspention bridge not yet built in Norton's lifetime and hence his decree was prophetic. Shaundakulbara 18:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Return of the Emperor

We have acted overly hastily and had forgotten to first declare Our return and re-ascension before attempting Our Great Works! Let Us now rectify this grievous oversight forthwith by Declaring the Return of Our Imperial Majesty, Norton I, Emperor of The United States, Protector of Mexico, and of the USEnet, and forthwith and forevermore Protector of Wikipedia! With Our Assumption of the Protectorate of Wikipedia now official it is Our hope that We may begin Our plans unmolested. Though it is Our experience that such matters are oft contested regardless of divine right.Emperor Norton the First 08:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• ...wow. --Hemlock Martinis 08:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Listen. Strange gods hanging around skies distributing divine rights is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical proclamation! --Gwern (contribs) 17:01 15 February 2007 (GMT)

[edit] FA status

I came here after reading through Neil Gaiman's Sandman. One chapter is the story of Norton and a fictious account of how the Endless shaped him. Anyway, I wanted to say that this article was very well written and it's also moving in a way. I'm hoping that you all can get this page back up to status and maybe make it an article of the day. Good Luck to you all, I'd help out but I really know nothing of the man. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review of Joshua A. Norton

Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nishkid64&oldid=138981027

In general, I thought that this article was quite good. You have managed to write a clear, full portrait of a rather obscure historical figure - nice work. Here are the things that I think you might need to address before the article can become an FA:

• General issues:

• The biggest problem that I see in the article is that it has a bit of an "in-universe" feel to the writing. I am not sure that we should be presenting the article from Norton's perspective, as it were. So, for example, I do not believe that he should be called the "Emperor" in the article, I believe that he should always be referred to as "Norton."
  • Y Done Removed usages of "Emperor", and replaced with "Norton". I will also try to look over the article and hopefully be able to fix the issue. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• The lead is not a standalone summary of the article per WP:LEAD: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources."
  • Y Done I've expanded the lead a bit to cover the whole article. Let me know what you think. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Is there speculation on what his mental condition might have been? Usually biographers and historians like to try and guess those sorts of things.
  • Will look into it. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• MOS kinds of issues:

• Don't link individual years per WP:DATE unless they are linked to some specific page. Although the policy says "some people feel this way" and "some people feel that way," at FAC I've only ever seen "don't link individual years."
  • Y Done All individual year links removed. Nishkid64 (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• I was recently informed that people with dyslexia have a hard time reading large blocks of italics. You might want to consider de-italicizing your blocked quotes. (I had italicized my blocked quotes as well.)
  • Y Done All italics removed (except for Norton's ending line of the first Imperial Decree). Nishkid64 (talk) 15:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• All of your footnotes should be cited in exactly the same way. There are some inconsistencies right now. Also, please italicize the titles of all newspapers and books.

• Y Done I think I've fixed all the mistakes. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Sources - not all of your sources appear to be reliable. Can you get this information from other places?

• Patricia E. Carr. Emperor Norton I: The benevolent dictator beloved and honored by San Franciscans to this day. American History. Retrieved on 23 April 2007. - Looks a little sketchy once you go back to the home page. Not really clear what the page is. It definitely looks self-published.
  • Y Done It's actually from American History Illustrated magazine. I've now replaced the web ref with journal ref. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Dakers, Hazel (April 6, 2000). Benjamin Norden (1798-1876). Southern Africa Jewish Genealogy. JewishGen.org. Retrieved on September 18, 2006. - This looks like it might be self-published, too.
  • Y Done Removed and replaced. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
• Kit and Morgan Benson (1 January 2001). Joshua "Emperor Norton I" Norton (1819 - 1880). Find A Grave. Retrieved on 17 April 2007. - This site is unreliable. Here is a quote from their page: "Who is behind Find A Grave? Well, first of all, you are. Thousands of contributors submit new listings, updates, corrections, photographs and virtual flowers every hour. The site simply wouldn't exist without the 200,000+ contributors." Who's to say that they are right?
  • Y Done Removed and replaced. Nishkid64 (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Joel Gazis-Sax (1998). He abolishes Congress. Retrieved on 24 April 2007. - This also looks like it is probably self-published. (You have several citations from this site.)
  • Well, I used his website as a reference because he had a list of all of Emperor Norton's imperial decrees. It's self-published, but it's not his own information. When I first started using this as a reference, I figured this would be labeled as an unreliable source, but I don't that is the case. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
    • There is one source that I used [4], that was actually written by Joel Gazis-Sax. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• The San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge. California Department of Transportation. Retrieved on 18 Aril 2007. Can you not find this information somewhere a little more reliable? The page, because it lacks an author, does not fill me with confidence, even though it appears to be from the CDT.
  • Y Done Removed and replaced. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Examples of Emperor Norton Notes. Wells Fargo History Museum. Retrieved on 19 September 2006. - This site seems to be a conglomeration of self-published contributions - see here. Can you not get the notes form the Museum site itself?

• Y Done Removed. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• Asbury, Herbert (1933). The Barbary Coast. Garden City Publishing Company, Inc. - Please note that the site says "adapted from" the book. I suggest you find the book or make that clear in the citation.
  • Y Done Adaptation number seems to be incorrect. A newer version of the same 1933 book indicates that it was only 98,200 shares, not a 1,000,000+ as claimed in the adaptation. I've used this number and cited the book as the source. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to paste this review somewhere more convenient, feel free to do so. I hope that it helps. I didn't really have that much to say. Awadewit | talk 08:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll get to work on your suggestions, Awadewit. Nishkid64 (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see someone taking on the task of polishing this article. I've done a fair amount of work on it myself, after being taken by it's irreverent and entertaining tone. In its initial elevation to FA, it was cited for "brilliant and compelling prose" and I would hate to see that lost as part of any revival effort. When the article was demoted, the two major complaints were 1) trivia, and 2) lack of sufficient in-line citations. I think the trivia concern has been taken care of; that leaves references. There is a wealth of material available in the history room of the San Francisco public library that could be used to beef up the references. Good luck, I'll help as I have the time. --Paul 17:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

We have lots of references, but some of them might not meet WP:RS. I live on the other side of the country, so I'm really limited on my Emperor Norton sources. If you live in San Francisco, I'd really appreciate it if you could do some library digging. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding some more information...

Just want to add some additional information you may found useful. If you need a source, it is Beyond Belief by Ron Lynn and Jenny Paschall published by Stanley Paul, originally in 1993. He moved to San Francisco during the goldrush where he did what you have written here. The rice shipment came from South America, a place he did not expect a shipment to arrive from. Afteer paying off his debts and re-emerging from exile in ashabby Colonel's uniform, he proclaimed himself Emperor of the United States of America in the following proclaimation that he gave to the editor of the San Francisco Times, demanding it be published the next day. It was. I know not if he gave his proclamation (which you have in full) to other newspapers but it was only published in the San Francisco Times. From then on his 'reign' began. The citizens of San Francisco accepted him and would bow to him perhaps impressed by his audacity. During his tenure, he drafted several letters to President Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War, assuring him he would take care of the economy. He was neytral and so wore during the time of the war a Union Army coat and a Confederate Navy hat. He fixed the economy problem by issuing his own money and making it legal tender in merchants around town. He also levied taxes. The Emperor became a tourist attraction, great for business and for merchandise- picture postcards, dolls in his likeness and coloured litiographs were among the selection. He ate, drank, rode and attended at threates for free, And even now, on the anniversary of his death, a party is held in the cemetary where he resides, in his honour. Feel free to include as much or as little as is appropriate. Rev. James Triggs 10:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, but it seems like we covered almost all of what you wrote in the article already. I'll see if there's anything missing. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move (old)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Viewing problem in Firefox?

Just wanted to check something. I'm looking at this article in Firefox 2.0 and two images aren't being rendered; Image:Joshua A Norton.jpg in the infobox (I think that's because the image_size field has been included but left blank), and Image:Lazarus2.jpg at the start of the Life as emperor section. However, they both show up in my other browsers (IE7, Opera 9.1, Safari 3.0, and Netscape Navigator 9.0b2). Further, when I try to edit the Life as emperor section using FF, the image does show up in the preview.

Anyone else using Firefox seeing the same problems? I don't want to be too bold under these circumstances if it's fine for everyone else... --DeLarge 16:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Yes, the same things happens when I browse using Firefox. Wonder what the cause of it is? -- Arwel (talk) 17:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The Lazarus picture is now visible, now that someone's removed the px parameter, and the infobox picture is now showing, with the image_size removed. -- Arwel (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Even though the problem is now fixed, I must say that's a bit strange. I've checked up on the article throughout July-August, and there were no image problems to my knowledge. Nishkid64 (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links removal

I removed two external links from the article (I was later reverted). I have no personal issues with Rotten and Kudzumonthly, but I removed them because we have a number of links to Emperor Norton biographies in the references section. There's no need to have a number of links that basically offer the same biographical details. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a personal issue with rotten.com. A year ago, i was looking at some pictures of rotten.com, a website which is specialised in raw violence. One picture showed an Indian girl overrun by a bus. Her scull was squashed and her brains were half out of her head. Her face distorted. Two other pictures showed psychopaths having sex with dead women. One woman had beat marks all over her body and her mouth was a bloody gaping hole. Another woman was dead for a couple of days with a grayish skin. It was so disgusting, that i nearly had to puke. I couldn't sleep for several nights. I believe that a site as sick as that one should be moved off from the internet. I will not look for the evidence. If you want to see it for yourself, go take a look. You will be able to watch these kind of pictures in a short while.--Daanschr 07:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I know rotten.com is well...rotten. Still, it does contain encyclopedic material, so I don't see it getting added to the blacklist anytime soon. Nishkid64 (talk) 13:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a disgrace. I don't think that Wikipedia is worth a place to be with these kind of websites in it. I am pretty liberal in many ways, but this is beyond the line in my view.--Daanschr 14:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I can accept the redundancy explanation; I won't replace these links again. (In all honesty my eyes just sort of skipped over the References section.) But Daanschr's POV about a website, or a topic, is not germane to the proper editing of an encylopedia article. Rpresser 20:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have now removed three external links: Rotten.com, Kudzumonthly, and SF Gate (exact article used in reference section). Nishkid64 (talk) 20:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There was one website that offered a psychological look into Emperor Norton's mind. I'm not sure if I used it in the references, but if I haven't, then I will add it to the External Links section. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone interested in a satanistic baby slaughter fest? We can put the pictures on rotten.com and get a link to Wikipedia?--Daanschr 21:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are parts of rotten.com that are horrible, but there are some encyclopedic sections (surprisingly!). The article on Joshua A. Norton was quite encyclopedic, and had it not been for the many other "duplicate" biographies on the article, it would have remained as an external link. Nishkid64 (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title Change

Yup, that was me, changing the title. I typed in "Emperor Norton" and the title of the article that came up should have been "Emperor Norton," not "Joshua A. Norton." It's not the "Joshua A. Norton Utilities" or the "Joshua A. Norton Records." To avoid fixing redirects, I used "Norton I, Emperor of the United States," which technically would have been his majesty's correct title, no? ;-) Mtsmallwood (talk) 19:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Really, the title of the article should be "Emperor Norton", which is his most common name. However, some people have argued that naming conventions on monarchs apply and also that royal titles are not allowed in article titles, both ridiculous positions oozing of sophistry. Common name should prevail, really. This current name is a good start. Charles 20:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Not for nothing, but at least discuss something like this first. It's quite obvious that a previous discussion on this issue has already no consensus'd so another discussion, at the very least, is necessary before making a bold move such as this. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The most recent posts seem to favor "Emperor Norton." Nobody in the world is going to search for "Joshua A. Norton." When you see the title "Emperor Norton" you know you've got the right guy. When you see "Joshua A. Norton" you're not sure. And what about Duke Ellington? Is the title of his article "Edward Kennedy Ellington"? or is Count Basie found under "William James Basie"? The title definitely should be Emperor Norton on these precedents alone. Mtsmallwood (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't speak to me; I'm rather neutral on the issue. Talk to the ones who opposed the previous move proposal. And BTW, I addressed the issue of Duke Ellington and other jazz royalty in my comment above within the proposal. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like there are very many people opposed to the change, and some of the opponents are possibly sockpuppets. The overwhelming evidence is that this person is known as the Emperor Norton (as shown by the Google hits), and there are many, many precedents for the use of an assumed name for a biographical article, all mentioned in the previous discussion you've referenced, and a few more if needed, include Nat King Cole, Sir Mix-a-Lot, and the perhaps more louche self-appellation'ed Ol' Dirty Bastard. So, does not the Emperor deserve his own time in the wiki sun?Mtsmallwood (talk) 01:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"some of the opponents are possibly sockpuppets" That's a dangerous position to take and possibly borders on a personal attack. Please be more careful in the future. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is that, with the status quo, anyone looking for "Emperor Norton" will find him. That's the glory of redirects. At the same time, Wikipedia doesn't wind up giving the false impression that there actually was an Emperor of the United States. It works quite well that way and isn't in need of reform. - Nunh-huh 04:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Everyone looking for Emperor Norton is going to look for Emperor Norton, not Joshua A. Norton. Redirects or not, there is a common name here. If people really think he's the emperor of some country without reading the article, that's their problem, not ours. Charles 09:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

not only that, but actual emperors, like Franz Joseph I of Austria and Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia don't have "Emperor" for the articles discussing them, whereas for instance Duke Cunningham (never a Duke in legal name or title) gets an article called "Duke Cunningham." So why this irrational prejudice against the Emperor Norton? The imperial court will hear of this, mark my words. In fact, I've a good mind to change the title of Beethoven's Emperor Concerto to the "Joshua A. Norton Concerto." BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mtsmallwood (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed several times before and never has achieved consensus for changing the name to Emperor Norton. My opinion is the still the same it has been every time this is suggested: Emperor Norton didn't exist; Joshua A. Norton did. Besides, both "Emperor Norton" and "Emperor Norton I" redirect here. There is no need for such a renaming. This is an encyclopedia, not a comic book.--Paul (talk) 06:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

We have plenty of articles on people who didn't exist. Emperor Norton did exist, but he was not legally an emperor. Really, saying he didn't exist is lame and pedantic. It is the name by which he is best known, therefore Emperor Norton does exist, whether he was really an emperor or not (he wasn't). Charles 11:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Really, all you have to do is contact the people who may have an intelligent debate about it (ie, the people who weighed in on the previous discussion) and create a consensus. All the rhetoric in the world won't help you build a consensus if there are no people in the discussion. Axem Titanium (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

His majesty should be referred to by his proper name. Which is of course, Emperor Norton. Malamockq (talk) 00:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Those who would argue that "Emperor Norton" is not a misleading article title probably shouldn't do so in ways indicating that they themselves are confused over whether Joshua A. Norton (his name) was or was not in fact an emperor. - Nunh-huh 03:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support change of name to Emperor Norton. Skomorokh ^incite 03:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support as above; it's what he is most commonly called, and so the most useful title. We expressly chose to base our naming practices on common English usage, not on legal or official names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support As common name. Charles 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose This has already been discussed- see survey in discussion of article. Tim Foxworth 05:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tfoxworth (talk • contribs)
• Support Change to Emperor Norton, because it is the most common name. DBaba (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
• Neutral I previously argued that the page should not be moved to "Emperor Norton" because the title was misleading. However, I'm split in the middle now. I still think my previous argument is valid, but I understand that the subject was more commonly known in a historical context as Emperor Norton, so a pagemove may be appropriate. Nishkid64 (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Should not the title be Norton I of the United States, per naming conventions? mkehrt (talk) 21:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This was covered in the previous discussion — he was not a real emperor, so the naming convention for monarchs does not apply. Kevin Forsyth (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support the change to Emperor Norton per the common name argument (Mark Twain, Molly Pitcher, Johnny Appleseed, etc.). Kevin Forsyth (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
• SUPPORT Let's get the Emperor the name he deserves. If Ol' Dirty Bastard gets an article under this name instead of Russell Tyrone Jones, then by golly so does His Imperial Majesty.Mtsmallwood (talk) 02:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
• SUPPORT The common name is Emperor Norton, not Joshua Norton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.50.12 (talk) 21:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bicycle

Me, I get along fine with the article bearing his name rather than title and the title being a redirect. Anyway, weren't photographs published of the Emperor on his boneshaker bicycle? Can such a picture be inserted in the article? Jim.henderson (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I picked up Drury's biography of Norton from the library. I'll check if there are any pictures of Norton and his boneshaker bicycle featured in the book. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Emperor

Why does the article treat him like an emperor with titles such as "Imperial Career" and "Life as Emperor" when he was not an emperor. The U.S. government never recognized his reign. In my opinion, he was just crazy. American textbooks don't even mention him (or at least the ones I've used). Emperor001 (talk) 17:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Because he called himself an emperor and was referred to as such, even if jokingly, and all things an emperor does are imperial :) The German government also doesn't recognize titles, etc, but we have numerous articles on Saxon, Hanoverian or Bavarian princelings that go in the face of that. Why do you call yourself Emperor001, Your Imperial Majesty? ;-) Charles 18:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

If you must know, my user name is just a joke that reflects my interests. I do not claim any Imperial throne. Emperor001 (talk) 13:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Emperor Norton had just as much authority as any king or emperor. He just didn't have as many people who recognized it.—Chowbok ☠ 05:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Except for the 57,000 people of San Francisco at the time who "let him be emperor if he wants to". Viriditas (talk) 05:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Name

Why did he make his "regnal" name Norton? If that was his last name, shouldn't Norton have been his "house name" and his first of middle name be regnal? Emperor001 (talk) 22:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)