Talk:Empathy

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Contents 1 Cleanup May 2008 2 Bib/ref 3 Empathy Symbol 4 Rework needed: Empathy != the ability to it 5 Question 6 Major point for consideration 7 Value Judgements? 8 Empathy is not the same as Telepathy 9 does anyone know who coined the term "imaginative empathy" or the term "appropriative empathy"? 10 image added 11 Grammar editing 12 Empathy and development 13 I have requested mediation 14 Mediation, empathy and tolerance 15 Evolutionary Origins of Empathy? 16 cleanup 17 Bio-empathy 18 Empathy in Customer Service 19 Psychopathy 20 What!! 21 Spindle Cells 22 Fiction 23 Empathy vs. Sympathy; Contrasting empathy 24 Autism, Aspergers, and Cho 25 Telepathy reference 26 Edit in Article 27 New Age Drivel? 28 Exact Meaning 29 Recent Articles 30 Methods of empathy 31 In Simple/Concise Terms (as I understand)

[edit] Cleanup May 2008

I've started a general cleanup of this page. Mostly restructuring without deleting too much (unless totally subjective). In particular I've moved the empathic fictional characters to its own page. It was starting to overwhelm this page with triviality. The same goes for a link right at the top to software and a comic book character! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomascochrane (talk • contribs) 20:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Also note that the lengthy discussion of touch by some obscure philosopher (in a medical journal??) sticks out like a sore thumb on this page. I won't delete it today, but I will some other time if somebody else hasn't already. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomascochrane (talk • contribs) 21:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the page looks quite a bit better now, and I took the liberty of removing the cleanup tag. I'm not very happy with the development section which focuses almost entirely on one man's theory, but I don't really plan to do anything about it now. Finally, could someone archive some of the old discussion please?Thomascochrane (talk) 11:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bib/ref

can someone explain the difference between the references and bibliography. imo they should be combined into one block. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.113.114 (talk) 05:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

items in the bibliography are general works on empathy, and may not necessarily be cited/referenced in the article.Thomascochrane (talk) 09:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Empathy Symbol

I clicked on the external link: "The Empathy Symbol Just like the peace symbol, there is now an empathy symbol" and the page timed out. Is this link still working? if it does not work a week or so from now we should delete the link. --Lbeaumont 22:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rework needed: Empathy != the ability to it

The article mixes up empathy with the ability to it. Empathy is "feeling into" someone, that is "to recognize, perceive and directly experientially feel the emotion of another". The "ability to" that is "the ability to" empathy, not empathy itself. The article needs a rework to make that difference clear. Jhartmann 09:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

---

I have deleted the statement that empathy is a reflex. It seemed dubious. Michael Hardy 19:42, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Has any one ever heard of a book...or any material on how to expand and broaden your mind in regards to empathy? (Answer: Yes, read "Flying in the Spirit," great eye-opener and user's manual for empathy.)

Perhaps you should ask at the Wikipedia:Help desk. - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 14:12, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Have children, young ones preferably. teenage children seem to be a drain on empathy, in my experience. TonyClarke 20:49, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My understanding of empathy comes from Carl Rogers, the American who pioneered non-directive psychotherapy. I learned about empathy from Marshall Rosenberg of the Center for Non-Violent Communications, who was a student of Rogers. Empathy is a core concept for both Rosenberg & Rogers and I feel any discussion of empathy has to take account of their work. It goes far beyond psychotherapy. For Rogers, empathy is a continuing desire to understand the feelings and communications of the other person. This simple statement is a very different approach than much of the current discussion about empathy. This approach to empathy requires that a person be quiet enough (or large enough) inside themselves and also open & interested in the other person, genuinely interested & compassionately interested. Empathy is not about feeling the other's feelings, it is about making the effort to understand. Empathy is very human and allows the other to feel they are visible and understood. When this works, you are "there" with the other person, and it can result in a radical shift in the other person, a visible release of tension in their body. After several workshops with Marshall Rosenberg, I now see the world differently. I feel that the vast majority of people that I come across in my daily life... let me be more honest, I feel that all of us in our lives are often starved for empathy. Andrew-in-ottawa 20:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

This statement is made in the "Empathy" article: "Empathy has to be learned at a young age." Why must it be learned at a young age? What proof is there that empathy cannot be learned later in life? What are the sources which claim this? I believe them to be wrong. Thank you. Raina 21:20, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Since no one has answered yet, I would suggest that those authorities who make this claim need to study it further. One other thought: is it possible that those who learn empathy later in life learn merely an artificial empathy? Perhaps they learn this "articifial empathy" in order to feel more socially acceptable? I am very interested in this, should someone have some answers. Raina 05:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Referring to the book listed above (Flying in the Spirit") Natural Empathy is a gift given to everyone. Skilled empaths have developed these skills to a higher degree. If you are reading this article you are an empath on some level. Work on your skills...it can change your life.

It is my opinion that we are born with the capacity to have empathy, just as we are born with the capacity to love and do many other things. I am of the opinion that these can be obliterated, if not completely then almost completely, by the treatment the child receives at a young age. I also believe that at a certain level of maturity, depending upon the person and that person's environment, s/he will recognize the deficit and begin to work on regaining what was lost.

I have been through these stages with regard to both empathy and love and learned to have what I call "social empathy": a level of empathy that makes one socially capable. More recently, I have learned how shallow that kind of empathy really is, and since, I have learned to have true empathy. At this point, while I know it is true empathy, I do not know if it is a mature empathy or an infantile or immature empathy. However, I am deeply grateful for gaining any empathy at all, just as I am that I eventually learned to love. Raina 04:15, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==

To answer your question, the spindle and mirror cells are the physiological basis for empathy in humans, primates, and some whales. Humans are not born with the cells functioning, or at possibly at all. They start growing in a baby at four months, with nurturing for the baby, soon to be a child, being critical to their growth, or possibly their development, or linking-up, within the mind. The pleasures of the parent child relationship develop empathy.

Effectively, empathy is not learned but is developed. Those who cannot feel their way to a good life through empathy, have to learn how to be altruistic.

Empathy is social empathy (I use it later in this discussion a purely social context). The mirror cells allow a level of communication that seems nearly telepathic; everything is said through eye contact. The mirror cells also allow us to absorb another's emotions through their subtle expressions, or "body English." Spindle cells tie all this together by creating high speed pathways between significantly different parts of the brain allowing for imagination, or what scientists would call modeling. Einstein very specifically mentioned this process as part of his developing his theories.

Empathy is not just happy communication. If someone is being mean to you, they are being toxic; through the mirror cells, they dump their toxicity into you-- they ruin your day. Issues for you become complicated as your spindle cells further enable your empathy so that you embrace the toxicity-- to understand it. Friends, of course, will sense this and will try to steer you away from these thoughts by distracting you with happier thoughts.

I personally feel that people who are well nurtured, and therefore more empathic, handle the stresses of life better. But because their empathy allows them to futher embrace life, they can be more greatly affected by the most extreme stress: trauma. --John van v 16:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major point for consideration

Surely empathy is more than just awareness of the thoughts or feelings of others. Empathy means entering into the mind or being of the other, to experience what the other experiences. The OED defines empathy as "The power of projecting one's personality into (and so fully comprehending) the object of contemplation". Identification, not simple awareness, is the key here. So the second sentence of the current definition gets it right, not the first sentence. This also means that the sentence about the con-artist ("A con-artist may possess and rely on empathy — awareness of others' thoughts and feelings — but fail to experience sympathy, which might prevent him from victimizing others.") is incorrect and ought to be deleted. Experiencing empathy for others would prevent someone from conning them. Again: empathy is more than simple awareness of what others are thinking or feeling.

[edit] Value Judgements?

Is there not a bit of value judgement going on here, clouding the definition of empathy?

Imagine an executioner who is not very good at his job, because he has a lot of empathy for the condemned, whom he has to despatch. I think it would be unfair to say that he has not got genuine empathy, just because he gets on with his job. Would you say he only gets true empathy if he stops his work and resigns? Surely his empathy led him to resign, therefore you cannot say that empathy prevents us from causing others harm. Perhaps all we can say is that people with empathy are unlikely to harm others, or that we most approve of the kind of empathy which prevents a person at all costs from harming others.

A similar situation is where a person is forced to torture others, as I think occurred in the Japanese invasion of China early last century. He or she may do the torture reluctantly, on pain of having even greater harm enacted upon others, and the person may do it with great reluctance and sensitivity for the suffering. The person cannot avoid harming others, whether he/she complies or not. The person is acting under situational pressures, but has not therefore lost his empathy.

TonyClarke 16:56, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Can Psychopaths not have empathy ? As I have often read the methods of such people are based on their understanding of the victim/s feelings and emotions to get closer to their end. To be capable of empathy is surely not necessarily a benevolent mode. I am sure I have read this during an interesting browse. To the same end to be capable of empathy may not mean that it is a constant ?

Empathy, it seems, is an ability to understand or percieve the others' feelings, not necesserily caring about them. To be an effective bully for example, one needs to have empathy, for only if you know what would embarass and hurt a person a lot can you arrange it for them. Maxim K (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We often assume that someone who has empathy would not harm anyone, but I do not believe that assumption is warranted. A person may harm someone out of lack of empathy, or a sadist's may harm people from a desire to do harm, knowing exactly what the victim will experience.--RLent (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

==

Psychopaths are psychopathic -- that is something you do not want to be around. You can stick lit matches in their arms, and it makes them relax (from what I have read). Total loss there; they are just sick.

The other question is more relevant, as you see this in every thing you do. To survive in this competitive world, you have to limit your empathy. For instance, if you start feeling sorry for the 10,000's of animals that have been cruelly butchered for your meals, you may startle your family. But if you stop eating meat, you will likely live ten years longer-- you were not meant to eat that much meat (not you personally, but the average you). Being empathic in this case means being selfish.

There is a world religion that protects people who are selfish in this empathic way; it is called Buddhism. True Buddhists don't kill anything; they have empathy for everything-- there is no limit to their empathy.

Actually, that's not entirely true. As part of protecting empathy, they practice self-defense, or martial arts. Buddhism absorbed martial arts as part of their pacifying Asia. In Japan the Shogunate warriors became the Buddhist Samurai, but never gave up their weapons. While empathy is often described as "walking in another's shoes" it can be described at times as "putting the shoe on the other foot." Domineering Christians are often surprised by this; they expect Buddhists and other empathic pacifists to always turn the other cheek.

[edit] Empathy is not the same as Telepathy

Personally, I believe there is a difference between feelings and thoughts. I am an empath (based on feeling) and not a telepath (based on thought). There are people that possess both abilities, but that does not mean they are the same ability. So I believe that any reference to an empath having an accurate trait of reading peoples thoughts is wrong.

Oh, my! Agreed! I never would have thought of the two being confused, but I once had a relationship in which the person may have been confused about this! I never realized this before reading your post above! She was quite miffed when I had to explain that I did not automatically know what she was thinking, so I could not respond to her thoughts. She thought that if we were true friends, I would be able to do this! At the time, I had to just let it go, but it really bothered me then, that I was so deficit that I had no ability to do this. I have blamed myself since that the friendship disintegrated, but I think you have something there. Thank you. Raina

[edit] does anyone know who coined the term "imaginative empathy" or the term "appropriative empathy"?

I have been using both but want to give credit where it is due, if it is. Thanks!

Sara Koopman

From the paper I just handed in: Azar Nafisi, an Iranian writer living in the West, who writes in opposition to the controlled and war-like conditions in her native country, makes a most important contribution as she describes for us how these combined forces within our minds can extend our empathy beyond our senses to transcend distance and social differences. She describes how the brain's most elegant constructs, empathic thought and imagination, naturally work together to create humanity's most noble reflections, and how necessary these reflections are.

No amount of political correctness can make us empathize with a child left orphaned” .. “Only curiosity about the fate of others, the ability to put ourselves in their shoes, and the will to enter their world through the magic of imagination, creates this shock of recognition. Without this empathy there can be no genuine dialogue, and we as individuals and nations will remain isolated and alien, segregated and fragmented.” (Azar Nafisi)

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddk32zv4_134d7psqf

[edit] image added

I have added my own artwork to this article. I've want to make it smaller, but could not, so I just made it a thumbnail. --Whicky1978 01:54, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Joseph, I'm not sure why you added that picture. It seems a bit primary school doesn't it? I'm not going to delete it or anything, but even the colours seem wrong. Your picture is suggestive of sympathy more than empathy. Empathy is about getting a sense of the SAME emotion as the other person.

Empathy is the intellection identification with another person, which includes emotions. How can the colors be wrong? Did you clip the thumbnail and read the caption? Was I not clear? In the picture, the colors represent emotions, on figure has some of the same color as the other person, hence symbolizing emphathic emotion. As for the primary school, if you think you can do better art work, or find better art work, then by all means do so. --Whicky1978 03:28, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

The content and aesthetic quality of the added picture is not up to the standard found in other Wikipedia articles. I agree with the other users who also made this claim. It's pretty obvious.

==

I looked at the picture and the containing website; yes it does seem a little young. A "peace sign" for empathy is a tough one; I have been struggling for one. If viewed in black and white, the one suggested is a good start. It shows cross communication between people through eye contact; and it shows the communication paths "wiring" into the rest of the mind. --John van v 19:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar editing

I have edited out many of the "we", "it" and "there", where appropriate to comply better with standards of grammer, as cited by APA, and my English and Psychology professors. According to wikipedia reccomendations, articles should avoid the use of vague expressions such as "some experts believe" or "it is widely accepted" and cite an actual source.--Whicky1978 04:52, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Joseph,

Every single one of your edits is idiotic. Your spelling is also atrocious. I will return another day to amend them.

yours,

tom

Tom, I do not want to start editing war. All my changes were made inorder to be helpful. Also, most of my edits were in accordance with wikipedia policy. Whicky1978 05:26, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with writing "Empathy is ...." and following it with "It is often characterized as ...". Changing the initial "it" to "the process" is infelicitous, in my view. And spelling grammar correctly would help the credibility of such edits. Michael Hardy 23:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Using it as the subject of a sentence is formal writing is inappropriate. It is like using "there" in the beginning of a sentence. Spelling and grammar are not he same, and yes, I admit that I make many typos. Whicky1978 05:26, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Using it as the subject of a sentence is formal writing is inappropriate.

I think the above is utter nonsense. Michael Hardy 01:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC

I don't want to enter into this argument about impersonal subjects or fuzzy antecedents to pronouns, but I would like to point out the final paragraph of the article:

The reader will not be astonished at the conclusive issue about empathy and history. Only events and their products meet or not empathy. It is impossible to forecast the effect of empathy on the future. We can pay attention to the means of language of telling events. We above checked a contemporary subject may not take part in the past. A past subject may take part in the present by the so-called historic present. If we watch from a fictitious past, can tell the present with the future tense, as it happens with the trick of the false prophecy. There is no way of telling the present with the means of the past. [19] The way of making the study of empathy functional is still long.

This paragraph makes little or no sense, not least because it is written in a very non-idiomatic style."Events" have "products" that "meet or not" empathy? Since an Italian source was cited, could it be that the writer is Italian with limited English skills? Unfortunately, my Italian is limited enough so that if I try to retrotranslate this into Italian, it still doesn't make any sense.Janko

[edit] Empathy and development

I have read that empahty is something that we learn, not rather than born with.

This is a reasonable assertion, because it is a cognitive process, and cognitive process become more complex as children grow. I will see what I can find, and add it to the article.--Whicky1978 04:52, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

If this were the case, then no one could be born with Autism. Autism is at its heart an innate failure to develop empathy. As a person with Asperger’s Syndrome, a form of High Functioning Autism, I can attest to the fact that empathy is an in born, reflexive and instinctual ability and that I developed empathy late, at 30 years old. Since I remember being without empathy and now that I have developed some empathy, I am in unique position to tell you what it is.

I did not know that other people experienced emotions until a few years ago, and this was not due to a lack or intelligence or opportunity to learn. But a predilection to use logic and systems in an inappropriate attempt to understand others combined with an inability to leave my own perspective and see another persons point of view. I was thus completely oblivious to the fact that people felt, but this is understandable, as it is obvious that a mathematical equations cannot feel. I was using the same part of my mind to understand people as I use to understand maths. No, it is sympathy that can be learnt. Diamond Dave13/07/2005 21:52

I have added a new section for the development of empathy.whicky1978 15:38, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

The comment from Rose Rosetree in this section seemed wildly inappropriate to the subject. "Empath" is imsufficiently defined for making a nominally objective statement like "5% of a population are Empaths", and worse, under the most common definitions of Empath, the statement reeks of false dichotomy. I've removed it. --70.104.231.161 07:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have requested mediation

I have requested mediation to prevent an edit war, and resolve our disputes --Whicky1978 05:40, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Joseph,

I just find your edits pointless rather than particularly damaging. Having a clear written style is not about slavishly sticking to pendantic grammatical rules. In particular, avoiding the use of 'I', 'we' or 'our' at all costs is an unjustified scientific (rather than academic) convention that tries to preserve the myth of total objectivity. Obviously the point of these articles is not just to spout personal opinion, Yet it is standard academic practise to use 'we' when guiding a conceptual inquiry.

Ultimately clarity and straightforwardness is my guiding principle.

• Could whoever is the main opposer of Joseph's edits indicate in the WP:RFM page wether they'd accept mediation? I'm sure it's possible to write a version with grammar you can both agree to. Mgm|^(talk) 17:26, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

My objections are not based on "total objectivity". The use of "we" is inappropriate when the subject is not inclusive of the reader--Whicky1978 23:11, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

What's up with the picture? Whicky's rendition of empathy? Huh?

• WP:SIG

[edit] Mediation, empathy and tolerance

LOL, if we need mediation on the empathy page, someone is seriously lacking in the ability to see the other's POV here! :-) Here's a quote on empathy from a peace organization:

Increasingly, educational researchers are identifying affective perspective-taking or empathy as one of the key characteristics of a successful learner (e.g., Jones, 1990). They recognize that an individual's success involves the abilities to view the world through the eyes of others, communicate effectively with others, and value sharing experiences with persons of other backgrounds. Those children with higher empathic understanding have greater grade point averages (e.g., Bonner and Aspy, 1984) and higher-order reading comprehension skills (Kohn, 1991). Developmental psychologists have found that the problems some children experience in social relationships are due in large part to their inabilities to understand how others think and feel. [1]

Sounds like the American Indians had something there, with that "walk a mile in his shoes" thing. Uncle Ed 20:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

==

Yeah, meditation and mediation go together great. I know for a fact that Natives everywhere have an empathic connection with nature; they are forced to hunt the animals they love and worship, but that's the hunter/gatherer's life. Our controlling restrictive Western civilization responded by ripping the souls right out of the natives where ever they could find them. Best documented is the work of the Jesuits in the Detroit area; the natives there, the Ojibwa (sometimes wrongly called Chippewa) formed an underground medicine society called the Midewiwin. The Midewiwin documented the horror orally and on birchbark. Today they work w/ the government to restore the Tribal connection with nature, ending centuries of inherited low self-esteem.

Watching interviews Aboriginal TV in Canada is great; the Natives have fairly advanced therapies. Sadder are the stories of the residential schools designed to destroy the Native spirit; what Luther Standing Bear coins as "psychecide." --John van v 00:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC) note: Luther Standing Bear was remarkable but he may not have coined the term. Paula Gunn Allen might have in relation to Standing Bear's writing; I am still looking.

[edit] Evolutionary Origins of Empathy?

I would love to see references to some research/documents/discussions on how or why empathy evolved in us? Can someone find any? What benefits did it bestow us? What role did empathy play in formulation the rules of society in early man? Did it lead to a set of rules of what acceptable behaviour was in a large group of humans? Which ultimately lead to a kind of "law of the land"...and in the absence of any abstract notions of local govenrment, nation..these rules morphed into an acceptable way of living in groups ..you shall not kill, steal your neghbours goods or mate..Did these rules morph over time into religion, as a first iteration of a government?..and over time these religious rules had superstition and notions of deities to attached to them?

john

==

Sure there endless references out there starting w/ Aristotle or Darwin. De Wall uses the analogy of our empathy being like a Russian doll, with the smallest doll being the "natural affection" (Darwin's term for empathy) of our most distant animal ancestors.

There is a well-studied monkey group near Puerto Rico on Cayo Santiago that has a synergistic social order. Every monkey shares food and information about food. Monkeys that don't share get kicked around by the other monkeys. This shows empathy in the way you ask, but.. the odd thing is that mirror and spindle cells are not found in monkey brains, well so far. These cells may be more widespread than presently believed, or there may be other neurological constructs that have the same effect as the mirror and spindle cells. --John van v 00:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

this article is all over the place, will someone please wrap it into neater more oragnized sections? right now it's like, 'oh, we were just talking about the definition, oh, now we're on autism, oh, now we're on emapthy towards animals(?).' i'd do it right now, but im studying for blasted psych finals. gah! JoeSmack ^Talk 16:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, maybe do something to the empathy definition section to make the definitions stand out from their citations.

1.1.07 I'm doing a little cleaning up on this page. I rewrote it ages ago, and it's strange how some of my original contributions remain but in a corrupted form that spoils their original meaning. tom

My honest opinion is that this field of study is growing so fast, that cleaning may be a waste of time. I think getting all the relevant data onto the page is the most important thing. The chaff should be obvious to anyone who is serious. There is, for instance, talk about telepathy. This is of course nuts (my opinion, oops); but there have been times I thought I was reading people's minds. That happens when the empathic mirror cells are at work, and most of us have them. They drive us crazy at times. --John van v 01:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bio-empathy

In some fantasy books and games (Phantasy Star 4, and Dragonrealms for instance, Empathy also refers to a character's ability to transfer the wounds of others onto their own body. Kira of PS4, for instance, tries to cure a disease by taking it into her own body and using a seperate power to purge it once there. Are there any other examples of this that we can find? Two games isn't enough to merit inclusion, but if it's a growing fictional idea then it might be worth mentioning in the article.

--Durahan

There are alot of comic characters who have powers termed as empathy. The only one I can think of is Dani Moonstar but I'm sure I've seen quite a few characters with this power listed. 68.166.67.2 19:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Empathy in Customer Service

--DavidND 10:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)All too often 'organisations' forget that Empathetic behaviour involves the physical too.

An example. You take your car in for a service around Christmas time. The garage owner thinks he's being 'Empathetic' (demonstrating he thinks and cares about you) when he leaves a bottle of Wine on your seat as a gift. You however are tea total and the gift actually alienates you...

If you are trying to encourage Empathetic behaviour then the key to success is to treat each person as a unique individual with personal needs.

• It DOES NOT take more time for staff to do this.
• It DOES take listening/hearing skills.
• It MAY WELL be that you deliver the same response to this person as you did the person before BUT as long as each person FEELS that they are being listened to AS AN INDIVIDUAL it will not feel that they are being treated like everyone else.
• Your staff morale will rocket.
• Your staff turnover will plummet
• Your customers WILL become more LOYAL if you do this.
• Your company will be more PROFITABLE if you do this.

Enjoy --DavidND 10:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Psychopathy

In contrast, psychopaths are seemingly able to demonstrate the appearance of sensing the emotions of others with such a theory of mind, often demonstrating care and friendship in a convincing manner, [..]

How many instances of "apparently" are required to satisfy the need to argue away a psychopath's ability to understand people's emotions? If we divide clearly between empathy (the ability to understand people's motives) and sympathy (holding other people's well-being in high regard), as the article does, then we have to acknowledge that psychpaths can only manipulate others because they have an average or above-average theory of mind. It is the need to put ourselves above our enemies, that leads to diagnosing a disability rather than an unwillingness.

Maybe the right formulation is to state that psychology is uncertain about whether the process of empathy in psychopaths is the same as that in the general population, or if normally subconscious abilities are consciously emulated - as is the case in people on the autistic spectrum.

-62.206.74.156 22:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What!!

Since when does a word like empathy derive from "false friend", "spite" etc? Wiktionary seems to have a much more logical derivation, I'm no expert so I'll leave it to someone else but seriously!!...sbandrews 07:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spindle Cells

I searched on mirror cells, and sure enough, they are there (that actually surprised me). Spindle cells are missing; they are connecting cells and with mirror cells give us the physiological basis for empathy, as humanity knows it. Empathy happens on many different levels, and the most important is the social level, or responsibility.

The unempathic have to be taught empathy; whether scruples, morals, laws, or altruism it is synthetic empathy.

To support the comment above, my understanding of aspergers is that is occurs from a lack of mirror cells, so the idea that aspergers suffers are over-empathic cannot be true.

Mirror cells work mostly through eye contact; but blind people in my experience, have been super empathic; so mirror cells work through all the senses. Memes are also an important part of empathy; they are containers for emotional and analytical information which pass from one being to another; music is the best example as it contains so many different components and reaches us on so many levels. The inventor of the meme, Dawkins, is not a great source. Memes are probably transported with the help of mirror cells.

Empathy comes from nature just as Aristotle and Darwin said it does; Darwin called empathy natural affection. The social layer of empathy above the two human layers (the sensual and the thinking, or high road and low road to Goleman) is the constructivist community of knowledge. This comes from nature, as does everything else. Just as with knowledge, you cannot cannot create community from thin air. Much like science you have to follow the natural path of development; in other words, you have to continue the natural evolution of the community of nature. This is because nature is where our psychology comes from; the flying spaghetti monster did not create our psychology (sorry, folks). The destruction of the natural community of knowledge is not evolution; it is destruction. Bulldozers are not a product of nature. The destruction of the natural community of knowledge, often called the environment, is a result of a lack of empathy at the social level. This lack of social empathy will destroy us in the end unless we, the socially empathic, defend ourselves against the socially unempathic-- preferably in the courts.

Here is a paper I have written on it; the wildlife section has gotten high marks from wildlife researchers: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddk32zv4_134d7psqf --John van v 00:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fiction

This section has a clean-up block quote, but I think the topic is valid. The text just needs to not be from Star Trek ;) I found a really informative link that looks at empathy in writing, and especially in Arabic: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/zebu0001/1301W/006170.html

Also, while I am at it, I am plugging my own empathy page: http://thinman.com/empathy

Here are comments I have received so far, I would appreciate yours if you have the time resource available.

"Your web page is impressive." --Dr Edwin Kahn (Rogerian therapist) I think you did a great job on the web page and it's easy to follow and understand. And your approach is very reasonable and sane. --Trisha W It looks wonderful!......You're definitely on the same wave length of thinking as myself. --Marilyn Yenolevage Well done; I like it! I haven't had time to read your entire page (like a NOVEL, it's so well written!) --Dave WOW! Took at glance at your webpage. It looks great. --Tammy You did a fantastic job, you really did --Diane Wow! I'm very impressed John, That is a great paper. --Pala --John van v 17:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)--

[edit] Empathy vs. Sympathy; Contrasting empathy

I think this section needs more explaination, people often confuse empathy and sympathy. Jake b 22:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Autism, Aspergers, and Cho

As autism and apsergers are defined (by the sane) as a lack of empathic neurons in humans, I think it needs to be noted that Cho, the Virg. Tech killer, had autism.

In an interview through a translator, Cho's great aunt very specifically said that Cho had no emotional connection with his mother as at child. She also specifically said he had autism.

He was obviously psychotic, but all psychotic people don't kill or even harm. But because Cho was unable to communicate emotionally, as he had no empathic facilities, he was unable to find out from others that his thoughts were psychotic.

I think the only valid way to honor the deaths of the innocent at that college, is to understand that empathy, meaning emotional communication, is the only path to peace.

The only way to honor their loss is to assure that in the future the empathic neurons in every human are promoted, and that lies surrounding empathy ranging from mental telepathy to the idiotic concept of a "selfish gene" are dispelled permanently.

Those who cannot feel the effects of their actions on others as a result of not having, or having lost, empathic facilities need to be constantly watched by family and society.

The constant fracturing of society by capital practices such as globalization (formerly colonialism) need to be halted so as to allow the evolutionary legacy of empathy, or natural affection as Darwin called it, to continue unmolested.

Likewise, those who cannot feel the effects of their actions on others, also as a result of the deficiency of empathic facilities, cannot have control over others, especially those with feelings. By removing the anti-empathic from control, as it turns out, all control will become unnecessary, as control is a condition found only in the absence of empathy.

--John van v 17:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Telepathy reference

Can we remove that? Telepathy still hasn't been verified scientifically... I would explain the telephathic empathy more in the lines of cognitive biases and non verbal communication...

[edit] Edit in Article

EDIT: The above actually sounds like instructions to develope a not-already-had ability of empathy, even though it is claiming to be how it is done in general. The person who wrote it is probably not really empathetic themselves. Empathetic people do not intentionally copy the person they are "reading," and simply do not use those methods. It is more that they can simply see indicators, or signs, of the person's emotions, and then they make guesses in why, which may or may not be educated. Empaths already know emotions well enough to not need to try to mimic an expression to figure out what it means. To be empathetic is to be observant, emotionally intelligent, and interested in the other person's emotions. The latter of which is why empaths are not so with everyone they come in contact with, mostly just people with which they are familiar. And, it is also why they sometimes share the other person's feeling, because they care about that person and are emotionally influenced by them. Either you are, or you are not empathetic, end of discussion, and the writer of that "methods" nonsense clearly was not.

Someone at 71.223.70.18 placed this in the article. Perfectly valid criticism, I'm sure, but it belongs here, not on the main page. Care to rewrite the offending section? DionysosProteus 04:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Age Drivel?

This article seems permeated with New Agey mumbo jumbo. Anyone agree or want to take on editing some of that. Or anyone have objetions if I take a stab at it? - teh jawn 17:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with you there. I notice near the end the page talks about the vibrations that objects give blah blah blah, and that it is the basis of empathy. I think somebody needs to edit this out, or cite the research this was taken from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.166.255.248 (talk) 05:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact Meaning

I've read the article and several onlint definitions of the word, but they seem to be vague on one thing (or maybe I just don't get), but I was wondering if empathy implies *feeling* the others' feelings or *being aware of what they are*? As far as I can tell there are three ways in which one can relate to the others' feelings, state of mind, etc: 1 - you see a person who is sad, but you don't realize that he or she is sad, 2 - you see a person who is sad, and you are able to detect their sadness, but you may or may not care, 3 - you see a person who is sad, and feel sad as well as a result of detecting their mood. So is #2 still empathy or not? Maxim K 07:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Articles

There was an article recently in TIME magazine that discusses new research relating to empathy. I think its worth including as a reference or external source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidget (talk • contribs) 21:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Methods of empathy

It only lists imaginative ways to feel empathy.

What about having actually felt the pain before? That's definitely a method, don't you think? One can empathize with another if they have felt the same pain.

--Heero Kirashami (talk) 22:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Simple/Concise Terms (as I understand)

  A.  SYMPATHY

I understand Sympathy to be one's ability to RELATE with how another is feeling. In contrast to Empathy, not feel the exact same way, but be able to realize the magnitude of the emotions as well as the catagory of emotions. E.G: If my friend lost a sibling and I never had; for me to Sympathize with my friend, I would reference an instance from my past whereby I believe the magnitude and properties of the pain are in parallel with the suffering of my friend.

  B. EMPATHY

Empathy I believe is ones's ability to identify with my friend via the same instance having occurred to me. Therefore, for me to Empathize with my friend, I would have as well lost a sibling at some time. This, in addition to Sympathy, theoretically, is a "Super-Class" of sympathy in that all aspects/properties of sympathy exist (magnitude and the same realm of feelings) and encompassing the additional aspect of having experienced the exact emotions myself.

  C.  CONCLUSION

Thus, in conclusion, Empathy doesn't just parallel another's emotions, it is having an eqaulity with another's feelings; having expeienced identical emotions and thus having a more thorough realization of another's emotional state.

  Z.  SOURCE
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  Wiki-Sig:  --Spirit 314 (talk) 23:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)