Talk:Emomalii Rahmon

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Contents 1 Name 2 News about his name 3 WP:NAME 4 ARGH! 5 Requested move 5.1 Survey 5.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 5.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 5.2 Discussion 6 -Ov again ... 7 ii

[edit] Name

Two days ago, on March 20, he said that he prefers to be called Emomali Rahmon, but he hasn't officially changed his surname yet. Jahangard 18:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I was told the name change was official, hence the reason why I moved the page. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

On the official website of the presidency, he is called "Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов" (Emomali Rahmonov) in every articles up to 20th of March, and "Эмомалӣ Раҳмон" (Emomali Rahmon) in every article since 21st of March!

But there is a case law on Wikipedia that states that an article's name must be the man's most known name. Thus if a person decides to change his name, or must change it by some local laws or customs, the article must keep the ancient name as long as sources continue to give the ancient one. This case law is used, for example, in the case of a former Japanese Emperor who is called Shōwa tennō (or Emperor Shōwa) in every official sources since January 31, 1989; his name change is totally official and every Japanese source use it, including the website of the government and the website of the imperial family, but Wikipedia still uses his ancient name Hirohito, asserting that this name is better known in the West, and even that this name is his "English name"!

So, I recommend to keep this article's name as "Emomali Rahmonov", and if the Tajik Embassy protests, we'll answer that the president's name is not the president's business, that Tajiks has no right to muddle our minds with such whims and that "Emomali Rahmonov" is his "English name", whatever the Tajiks do each with others. After all, we won't let a Tajik decide for us what we'll teach to our children! Švitrigaila 13:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, my post is rather aimed to mock some stupid Wikipedian decisions than to mock Tajik customs. ;o) Švitrigaila 13:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's at its right place right now (without the -ov). —Nightstallion (?) 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's better to wait for a while to see if the name change is official or not. The Tajik newsreports that I've read and the official website don't indicate that. Jahangard 01:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And if the name change doesn't stick officially, then let's move it back. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 02:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Er.... you know, I was just joking when I said I was against the move... :o/ Švitrigaila 08:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone was, so I guess it was moved back. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 15:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] News about his name

There is something I didn't remark earlier. On the website of the presidency, the old name used is Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов and, since March 21, 2007, Эмомалии Раҳмон. Remark the modification of the ending of the first name. There is a reason for that and it's very difficult to explain it clearly and shortly. I try.

In Persian and Tajik languages (that are two dialects of the same tongue), there is a phenomenon called ezafe. The Persian nouns Wikipedian article teaches us :

Ezafe is name for the short vowel e, with the same sign which signifies consonantal h or he (ه) in Persian. Ezafe is used as an enclicitc to denote possession: ketab-e man means "my book." When ezafe follows a noun ending in a vowel, it becomes a glide known as hey ye and represented by the character ﮥ, pronounced -ye; e.g. khane-ye man for "my house."

In Persian language, written with a modified arabic script, ezafe is pronounced but not allways written. In Tajik language, which is nearly the same one, but written with a modified cyrillic script, ezafe is written, using a very special convention. The cyrillic letter и is normally a vowel, pronounced roughly ee, or a short i. But in Tajik this letter is used at the end of a word to represent ezafe. For example Президенти Тоҷикистон (Prezindent-e Tojikiston, President of Tajikistan) in which the first и is the mere i of prezident and the second one is the ezafe.

And what happens if you have a word ending with a true i sound? You then use ӣ (a и with a bar) instead of и. For example in Эмомалӣ (Emomali) or in Ҷумҳурӣ (Jumhuri, Republic). The letter ӣ can occur only at the very end of a word. And what happens if you add an ezafe to a word already ending with a ӣ? It's simple: you add it, and the ӣ which is no longer at the end of the word becomes a mere и. For example in Ҷумҳурии Тоҷикистон (Jumhuri-ye Tojikiston, Republic of Tajikistan).

So what about our Emomali Rahmon(ov)? His name was Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов, all right. He decided to drop the -ов ending, OK. But in order to keep the original meaning of his name (that is Imam Ali, son of (Abd-el-)Rahman), he adds an ezafe and his name Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов (Emomali Rahmonov) becames Эмомалии Раҳмон (Emomali-ye Rahmon, Emomali of Rahmon). His first name has not changed. It's only its declension before the last name. If it were used alone, without the last name, its form should still be Эмомалӣ.

One last question: how can we translitterate Эмомалии in English? We could use Emomali-yi or Emomali-i to respect the origin of this spelling, but it's not really worth. I think Emomalii would be simpler and better.

Švitrigaila 10:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I would personally go with Emomalii. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 15:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

We don't usauly transliterate that izofa "и" in English titles. In the text, we can mention the original spelling and also the exact pronounciation (which is "i"). Jahangard 16:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, thanks for pointing out Persian nouns. That article needs to be modified. Jahangard 17:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

To see what their officials use as the romanized version of his name, see Tajik embassy in Turkey. Jahangard 16:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good example. It's only the translitteration in Turkish. For example, Dushanbe is written "Duşanbe". But I agree we may wait and see for the spelling of his first name. His last name must me written Rahmon anyway. Švitrigaila 22:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We should follow official Tajik websites and publications which are written in English. The official website of Rahmonov doesn't have English translation. Tajik embassy in USA is an example of what we should follow. Jahangard 22:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We must be very cautious about the English version of the official sites. I don't know about Tajik websites, but I know that Uzbek, Azeri, Turkmen, Belarusian sites are translated in English directly from the Russian version, so the names are translitterated into Russian first and then into English from the Russian verison. It explains for example the mess about Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow's name spelling. I think those names must be respected in their original spelling when their language is written with Latin script (Uzbek, Azeri, Turkmen...) and translitterated directly from their original spelling otherwise (Tajik, Belorusian,...) Švitrigaila 08:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NAME

Are we forgetting WP:NAME? - Francis Tyers · 17:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

His former name is far more prevalent. - Francis Tyers · 17:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that they haven't even changed his name on the top of his official website yet. It's still "Раҳмонов". I don't see any point in being faster than his website designer (in changing the title). Jahangard 18:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is why I originally undid the move to Rahmon. KazakhPol 17:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. - Francis Tyers · 15:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ARGH!

Guys, look at this! The article title is Emomali Rahmonov, the very first line says Emomalii Rahmon, so does the template down at the bottom, and all different versions are scattered throughout the article. I realize I do bear some responsibility for the mess (I kind of jumped the gun yesterday--sorry), but what should we DO?! K. Lásztocska 13:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I know this feeling. :o| What can we do? Nothing. But I think it's very temporary, because if this name is used, I hope there will be a clear majority for the change of the name of the article... or maybe not, as it's the case for Hirohito! I think the article's name can be changed now, and we need a clear vote. WIth your vote, my vote, and maybe two or three more votes I can found easlily, the change can be vote without much problem. Švitrigaila 13:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

We should probably take this to WP:RM. - Francis Tyers · 13:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to go list it on RM. I think the most correct spelling is "Emomalii Rahmon", so that's what I'll request. K. Lásztocska 14:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article has been renamed from Emomali Rahmonov to Emomalii Rahmon as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 14:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] -Ov again ...

Take a look here: Talk:Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow#Another name change. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This link doesn't exist... yet. :o| Švitrigaila 09:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

My mistake - forgot to write the Talk:. --Amir E. Aharoni 19:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ii

Hmm.

On the official presidential website i see that they they write Эмомалӣ Раҳмон or Эмомали Раҳмон. But when i searched Google for Эмомалии i found a lot of Эмомалии Раҳмон on Tajik sites.

It's a bit strange. Does anyone have an explanation?

See also here - Ov. --Amir E. Aharoni 19:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Gosh! You're right. He changed again! His name is still spelled Эмомалӣ Раҳмонов in all articles written before March 20, then it's spelled Эмомалии Раҳмон up to April 13, and Эмомалӣ Раҳмон from April 17! I fight for clear and simple naming conventions on Wikipedia, but those guys don't help me... :o( Švitrigaila 09:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess he was upset to discover that since his first name changed everybody call him Emomalii. But the second i is only a liaison between the first name and the surname, as I wrote above. It's like calling him Emomali of. And then he corrected his first move. ... All this is pure speculation of course. Švitrigaila 09:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)