Talk:Emo rap

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The current consensus is that Gym Class Heroes is not Emo Rap. Please see Talk:Gym Class Heroes before adding them again

Contents

[edit] Revert 12 Feb 2007 by user Root7

I do not think it is appropriate that user User:Root7 reverted the entire article without any discussion, considering I announced my changes here in the talk page. I intend to reintroduce the changes.AThomas203 02:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

With regards to the changes, I do think your change removed a lot of the criticism unecessarily (especially with regards to accusations of racism), and perhaps should be debated further before its introduction. Another thing is the list of artists, which will perhaps be the most contentious issue, so I would propose keeping it limited to those always defined by some as emo rappers (sage francis etc). However, the inclusion of emo raps origins (atmosphere, anticon etc) is a change for the better. (Liam zer0 07:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Emmie Magazine Source

This is a college magazine from Wisconsin with a yearly circulation of 3,000 copies. The author of that particular article does not have any other articles published in the magazine. As such, this is not a strong source, and it is editorial, rather than factual. It is appropriate to discuss the points he raises, but they cannot be treated as facts...


I am cleaning up this article both factually and stylistically. I will be attempting to strike a tone, per NPOV guidelines, that treats this topic and its controversies fairly.

  • Deleting references to Nerdcore Hip-Hop. The two hip-hop subgenres are not stylistically related. Google as of 09 Feb 2007 lists 221 entries for "nerdcore"+"emo rap". Many of them are mirrors of the wikipedia article, and do not indicate a substantive link between the two topics.
  • As of 11 Feb 2007 google lists 29,100 results for "emo rap". It is a term that is wide-spread use, and as such deserves an entry.
  • I deleted much of the criticism, not to stifle it, but because it was off-base. Emo-rap does not insinuate that the memebers of this genre have a monopoly on emotive and personal rap music. The rappers mentioned in the deleted section may have been emotive and personal, but they did not become popular within the shadow of the punk emo music scene.


What in the wprld is emo rap? emo was a subgenre of hardcore punk and eventually indie rock, but now it is a name for a trend wher e teenagers act depressed and listen to crappy music. What does Atmosphere have to do with any of these 3 scenes?Showing emotion doesn't make one emo, or that would make Eminem,2pac, or even the Beatles emo. this article is useless. And that msnbc articel sucks, it called Death Cab for Cutie emo. wow, LOL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk) 01:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC) AThomas203 03:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

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The article clearly states that everthing about "emo rap" is disputable. All those "factuality" and "neutrality" labels are unnecessary. I don't mind the "neutrality" label on the top of the article, but does every section need a label? Just look at the "List of Nu-Metal Bands" article. That's all very disputable. In fact, so is the whole nu-metal article. And why is it okay to have a "nerdcore" article but not an "emo rap" article? Just because I didn't agree with your Beastie Boys edit doesn't mean you have to do this.

--

At the risk of sounding like a whiny bitch, I find the term "Emo rap" to be utterly rediculous. The artists and music who are supposedly associated with this "genre" have nothing to do with traditional emo (read: whiny, bitchy, cut myself) music. Just because shit is real, doesn't make it emo. I'll get off the soapbox now.

lol, traditional emo is not whiny, bitchy, and "cut myself". Thats today's so called nu "emo".


  • I agree with the guy above, where I can see where it comes from, the word emo needs to be replaced by something else...

The mentioned artists belong in the same category, but cannot realistically be associated with emo culture. --Xcen 05:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I think one thing the article doesn’t mention is that the groups associated with this genre/label (whatever) are usually labeled as such more because of their fans then the overall content of their music. I would hardly call Awol One’s or Grand Buffet’s lyrics “Emo” (a term I’m not totally sure I understand), if anything their lyrics tend to be silly (or in Awol’s case ridiculous). Yet these artists are still grouped together mostly because they share the same following, which just happens to be a cross-section of underground hip-hop fans and indie rock/”emo” fans. Overall the whole “emo” rap this seems derivative of the term Backpacker in the nineties, which in the last few year has become more acceptable, in the end the use of “emo rap” is just a way for “real” hip-hop fans to distance themselves from the “suburban” fanbase.
  • Just to add to the previous sentiments, the word emo is completely wrong for rap and any subgenres. As none of these artists profess to be 'emo rappers', and the high chance that 'emo rap' is a completely fabricated genre, I propose this article be drastically changed or deleted.
"Completely fabricated?" What does that mean? Hip hop is a completely fabricated term as well. Also, the article clearly states that the term is debated.
  • No, hip-hop is a muscical/cultural movement that is acknowledged and used as a term by music critics, fans and performers alike. Emo rap does not have this widespread acknowledgement or even basic acceptance. Even among its apparent purveyors there is little to suggest that they would call it a legitimate genre. Emo rap is simply another fake sub genre, that falsely implies many of these artists brand themselves as 'emo rappers', or are branded in that way by any other significant hip hop critic or artist. The racist implications of emo rap (as pointed out in the Emmie Magazine articl) are also of concern, and this should be mentioned properly in the article. Emo rap- "a bullshit term hyped up by the music industry to market white emcees to white hipsters."
Emo Rap is an evolving term and subgenre. Hip-Hop music was not immediately recognized, or labeled as such. There was a period where different names for it were used, and the definition of what it was were not firmly set. Emo rap is currently at that point. It has been written on by traditional media outlets such as MSNBC and Spin Magazine. AThomas203 16:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edan

I'm deleting the mention of Edan in the article. The term is insulting to all the mentioned artists, but its just plain stupid to include Edan. quas 04:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aesop Rock

Mirroring above sentiments, I removed Aesop Rock because his music is not descended or evolved from punk emo music, and he himself states that he was influenced by hip hop in the song 'Holy Smokes' (when he talks about Kool G Rap). I also think that Aesop Rock's lyrics have little in common with the other artists in this article, and his lyrics have little to differentiate them as particularly 'emo' (especially his recent work). (Liam zer0 07:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC))

Aesop Rock is explicitly mentioned in the Spin Magazine article. Being on the Def-Jux label, attending scribble jams, touring with emo rappers, Aesop Rock evolved musically within the shadow of the punk emo and emo rap scenes. His music does not need to descend directly from emo punk, and no-one is saing that in the article. AThomas203 16:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No Aesop Rock is not mentioned explicitly as an emo rapper in the Spin article, he is listed as a 'Sensitive type', which shows his style contains many elements, and to brand him as an 'emo rapper' would not only be unfair to him but ignore a large part of his work (eg Fast Cars, Bazooka Tooth). You cant categorize someone in such a narrow genre as 'emo rap' when such a large part of their music is unrelated. What evidence is there to say his music evolved within the shadow of 'punk emo' and 'emo rap'. And being signed to Definitive Jux does not make a rapper 'emo', its just means their an indie hip hop artist, just like touring with emo rappers does not categorize what music he makes (besides, i dont see anyone labelling mr lif or el-p as emo, despite many of their songs discussing emotional family breakdowns, depression etc). If people want to use the SPIN manufactured and narrow term 'emo rap' against the artists' wishes, they should at least make sure they fit definitively into that genre, which aesop doesnt, or if they are to include partly 'emo' artists, then tupac, ghostface killah and other emotional rappers should be included.

Read within the context of that article, the list enumerates people who Spin's reporting has determined fall within the category of emo rap. There is a disclaimer at the top of the wikipedia list, that either does now or should disclaim that because the definition of emo rap is evolving and is in flux that the list might be too broad or too narrow. The argument that these other rappers would also fit the definition of emo rap is incorrect. My edit which has been reverted better tailored the explanation of emo rap to reflect that common usage definitly does not describe the music made by mainstream, established, or gangster rappers. Aesop Rock doesn't start inter-coastal gang feuds, or rap about moving weight. His music is informed by his surroundings, which includes the growth of emo culture in the late 90s. He probably isn't at the center of the emo rap phenommenon, but he is squarely in the peripheral. Emo rap does not mean that they are 100% in lock step with emo culture. I do not even believe that emo rap evolved from the conventional punk emo scene, but that it is parallel drawing on the same undercurrents in modern society that produced the punk emo scene.
As a comprimise I suggest two lists. One that is more definitive, for the artists that clearly fit the defintion (this will be hard because as an evolving genre, there is no definitive test). And one for the artists that exhibit some characteristics, and may be more of the periphery. With a good disclaimer for both.

AThomas203 02:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I doubt this will stop a lot of other peoples complaints about the genre, and in particular the name emo. One way to avoid this would be to rename the article 'Emotional Rap' or something along those lines, which would in my opinion stop a lot of the grievances about this particular style of hip hop being lumped or confused with the punk/emo scene, which in my belief would be unfair to both genres. But your idea is a good one, with a column for rappers generally described as emotionally charged, and another for rappers who contain a reasonable amount of that type of content. However, I'm not sure I understand the link you are drawing when you say "His music is informed by his surroundings, which includes the growth of emo culture in the late 90s", as Aesop Rock strikes me as more influenced by old school hip hop (A Tribe Called Quest, Kool G Rap etc) in dress, musical direction and his abstract lyrics. I also think that Aesop Rock shares a bit more in common with artists like el-p & cannibal ox than many of these 'emo rappers', and think that the description given of him as an "apocalyptic rapper" on the alternative rap page is more appropriate, especially considering his recent work. So essentially what i'm saying is that I would put Aesop Rock in the column of not definitively an emo rapper, as i view that as just one aspect of his style. Again, I think the name emo generates a large amount of this ambiguity, and would think its worth seeking an alternative name. Thoughts? (Liam zer0 07:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC))

The term "emo rap" has 21,000 hits in a google search. It is in common use, that cannot be changed. The best thing to do is to offer a well-developed article about the term, about what accepttance it has and what controversies it has. Please look at the heavy edit that I did, that was then reverted without discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emo_rap&oldid=107347524. I think I was moving in a good direction towards a more accurate, and balanced article. If you have an opinion on that, please respond here in the Talk page under the heading discussing the revert. Also, I invite you to create an account on wikipedia. It makes version tracking and collaboration easier.
Aesop Rock may fit better under abstract hip-hop. But I bet you people, right or wrong, are using the label emo rap with his name. Maybe it is because he is a white rapper that travels in the anticon/skribble jam/def jux circles. If that is so, perhaps it is important to adress it in the article. It is appropriate to put bullet points under an artists.

AThomas203 06:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

While Aesop Rock isn't an official emo rap artist, most of these aren't. These are just rappers who have been labeled with the term, thus he belongs on the list. I re-added him. xcryoftheafflictedx 07:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, Aesop is simply not emo rap, since he has just one album which could be described as emo rap (Float), and none of his others have been described in that way. Did people just ignore the aggressiveness of Fast Cars and Bazooka Tooth, or were they busy reading that one Spin article. Its offensive to fans that he's on this list. Hell, emo rap might be a legitimate term, but dont put on someone unless its constitutes a majority or even substantial portion of their work. This list shouldn't even exist in the article if it's an opinion, it should be on the talk page. I could describe blue as red and get it printed in spin, but that wouldn't make blue be red. Why not make a list of what is generally agreed on as emo rap, something which Aesop Rock is not. That way its NPOV

[edit] Artists

I'm removing the section because it is original research and potentially derogatory. It's going to be an oft-argued section about who belongs and who doesn't (see above), and it's better off not being in an encyclopedia like this. hateless 23:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Section re-added. It is not original research, it is under developement, and I have increased its quality by starting to add cites. You assertion that the label emo rap is derogatory is in itself biased. The article will be written in NPOV to address the controversies of the term. AThomas203 22:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
You don't have a section of examples of emo rap as much as you have a section of people accused of being emo rap. A list with a long disclaimer is obviously a list that has problems, and you have Eyedea listed as emo-rap when the same source you use has him attacking the label as derogatory and racist.
Your sources mean little. Any fool can write something on the web calling MC Some Dude as an emo-rapper and that qualifies him for this list. Look at this: Do a google search for "Pigeon John" "emo rap" and you get 245 hits. "Pigeon John" by itself gets 281,000 hits. That's a whopping 0.08% of all references to Pigeon John on the web associate him with emo rap. Compare that to "Pigeon John" "hip-hop", and the hits go up to 143,000: that's a 51% ratio. For a control, lets check out "Jay-Z" and "Jay-Z" "hip-hop": That's 1,610,000 to 5,040,000, or 32%. Now back to Pigeon John: if .08% of web comments connect this guy to emo rap, when we see an actual genre connection being something closer to 30%, is this guy really emo rap? If a list has him considered as a emo rapper, then how useful is that kind of list?
Now for actual Wikipedia policy: WP:NPOV states that "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." It seems to me that Pigeon John as emo rap is an extremely tiny-minority view, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia at all. As for the rest of the examples, maybe Slug works, since it's a self-label. But you clearly need higher standards for this list and a simple web link will not suffice. hateless 07:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

If thats policy than this article needs a drastic overhaul, or at the very least a narrowing down of the artists mentioned. Should this article even exist? Probably not, but if it is going to describe 'emo rap' than we should make sure the artists described fit that label exactly, and not slander hip hop artists with unwanted labels that are clearly despised by the both the artists themselves and the majority of their fans (and the wider hip hop community for that matter). I would ask that Aesop Rock (abstract not emo, see above debate), Fort Minor (evidence?), the Rhymesayers label (a gross generalisation if i ever saw one) and MURS (again, evidence?) be removed. Unless an artist describes themselves as emo, or is recognised by a majority of hip hop fans, critics and artists as emo (which practically no one is), they should not appear on the list. A SPIN article manufacturing a new genre is not enough to qualify this entire article, and which artists are 'emo' or not. Hateless is right. Liam zer0 23:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed MC Lars as well as an example of what not to do: a entry that has a paragraph attached to it to argue its position is clearly POV. WP is not a soapbox nor a place to advance arguments made by its editors. hateless 09:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


I highly doubt that Fall Out Boy is emo rap. I don't really listen to them but they play enough on the radio for me to know they aren't rap. So they should be taken out, as well with the rest of the list, unless some hard facts (ie the bands own website) says they are emo rap. wikipedia isnt a place to just state that some bands are emo rap without having sources at least. so at least until they all have reliable sources they should be removed Lg1223 20:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with LG1223, I listen to both Sage and Fall out boy, yet could never consider Fall Out Boy rap, its just emo rock. 2 votes for revision.

[edit] Removed Request for Deletion: 21:09, 1 March 2007

Request for deletion (RfD) template was added, but the proper RfD procedure was not followed, notably the failure to create the page Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Emo_rap. There was an entry in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2007_February_26, but no reason was given for deletion. Finally, the RfD banner was added by an non-logged-in user which violates WP:AFD#Before_nominating_an_AfD which says that non-logged-in users are not eligible to nominate AfD.

I am not deleting the banner to stifle debate. However there was no mechanism for the banner to expire because the AfD process was only half-started. If the page is again nominated AfD, I would be happy to engage in the debate. AThomas203 21:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert 05:31, 26 March 2007

The entry underwent a complete rewrite, not for the better. The information is presented in a very novice way, misunderstanding and misrepresenting several basic ideas. It is transparently pushing a POV. In this case, a POV heavily informed by (apparently) emo and modern Christian youth culture. In my substantial edits of this article I have preserved a robust section for the criticism that this entry attracts. I wish people would focus their efforts on expanding that section, and making it better instead of rewriting the whole article to push their agenda. The weasel words and misuse of footnotes is symptomatic of the crudely executed POV-pushing. I would welcome some thrid party review, the edits really speak for themselves here.

There is plenty of room for this article to grow and change. And I believe that the version that I have reverted to is a good structural framework to extend. I welcome people to add to the entry. For example, I was happy to leave the new table of songs and artists. I didn't think it was a good addition to the page, but I accepted other users modifications to the page with an open mind. However, after the re-write, it becomes apparent that the table was part of a broader initiative to change the tone and content of the article. I then made the personal decision to revert even that edit. AThomas203 05:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Christian youth culture? Weasel words? What the hell are you talking about? First of all, this article has nothing to do with Christian youth culture, there are no "weasel words" as all the points made in the article are also made by articles linked to in the References section, and the original criticism was most certainly not robust. Emo as a cultural trend has generated significant backlash. It is a very polarizing term and it is often viewed negatively by hip-hop fans. They have a negative reaction when the term is applied to artists that they like. That is not robust, that's weasel words and also condescending to people who disapprove of emo rap (I actually think emo rap is sort of cool, so no POV coming from me).
P.S. Excuse any typos that may be in this reply: I'm wearing a bandage on my finger and it's making it very difficult to type. Xcryoftheafflictedx 23:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I have preserved a framework for someone to expand all the criticism that is fit. I do not feel qualified to do it myself, and I have made a concentrated effort to preserve the criticism that I have seen exhibited on the page. The section may be comprimised with weasel words as it stands, and that is my failing. I welcome interested parties to expand, add, delete upon it. AThomas203 01:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not revert it again. The old version is a mess and mine contains more information, and is also easier to read. Again, please don't revert it. Xcryoftheafflictedx 15:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting "Related Songs" table

I could see this table serving some purpose if it highlighted some songs that were highly indicative of the emo-rap style. This would give readers a solid understanding of the core of emo rap, which would make illustrating and identifying the more fringe examples easier. The table in its current form does not list "core" emo-rap works. Off-hand I would say the most appropriate would be works off of Sage Francis' "Personal Journals" album, and Atmosphere's "God Loves Ugly" or "Lucy Ford" albums. Instead we have:

  • MC Lars. POV and Weasel words. An artist's acceptance of a term does not determine/undetermine whether that artists exists within the genre. If he is not believed to be emo rap, why is he on the list?
  • KJ-52. POV. This is a christian hip-hop artist that the editor wants to showcase, and is certainly not considered part of the emo-rap movement. Saying it was, playing devil's advocate, they are not at the "core" of the movement, which is what the list should endeavor to represent.
  • Fall-out-boy. Are you kidding me? An emo band, and a mainstream rapper, does not equate to emo-rap.

I intend to remove this section shortly. AThomas203 00:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added cleanup-rewrite tag to Criticism Section

This section is in terrible shape. For a topic that has engendered such controvery, one would think that people would take an interest in making this a quality portion of the article. I went to fix the CITE on the markprindle.com link. And realized while I was in there, it is probably irrelevant to the article at large.

I plan on revertin to the old format that I introduced, which provides a framework for robust and developed criticism of the topic. Previously the section had three sub-sections:

  • Emo as a derrogatory term
  • Race
  • Other rappers with emotional content

visible here

These are the areas that I think people have centered their criticism around. This would be better than the random hodepodge that currently exists. AThomas203 00:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposol to revert, 04 April 2007

The more I look at the current state of the article the worse it looks. The article has been rewritten to support the point of view that "Emo rap is more of a term than an actual hip hop subgenre." POV-pushing is further evident in that the article refers to artists as "alleged emo rappers." Additionally, it is just poorly written from a literary standpoint. It flows poorly, and fails to develop ideas well.

I think an objective review will lead one to believe that the approach of the article as epitomized by the 03:11 23 Feb 2007 version is superior to the previous version, and the current version. Notice especially the great amount of work that I put into formatting the references section from the previous version. I would like to establish consensus to revert to the general organazation and approach of the 23 Feb 2007 version. AThomas203 02:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Any more reverts and I'm submitting this page to full protection. Work it out in the talk page, this is an edit war and its getting ridiculous. hateless 03:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing artists

Please do not remove Fall Out Boy and Zebrahead from the artist list. Fall Out Boy is decidedly emo and include rap vocals in some songs, while Zebrahead uses rapped verses and emo choruses. Thanks. Elsebroke 05:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with ELSEBROKE, Fall Out Boy is not rap.

Also disagree, Fall Out is def not rap.

Cite one song where Fall Out Boy has rap lyrics. Not including 50 Cent on the intro of Thriller. FinalWish 03:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Gym Class Heroes

This has been discussed many times on the Gym Class Heroes talk page and the consensus is they are not emo rap. FinalWish 03:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

If I had a dollar for every time this subject came up, I'd be a very rich man. This has already been discussed.

Gym Class Heroes is Not Emo Rap. I don't want to argue about this, not while I'm applying for the Meditation Committee. Please see the talk page before adding Gym Class Heroes back in. FinalWish 23:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

I think this should be removed. "Emo Rap" is not a genre. The only substance to this article is criticism that it isn't. Emo is a subgenre of punk, not rap. Just because it has emotion doesn't make it "emo rap". Most rap is emotional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.75.131 (talk) 01:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this. The fact that only one artist is named in this article, and not even as a performer of this type of music reinforces that it should be removed. Skee-Lo's song wasn't an example of "Emo Rap" - it was a satire of rap songs of the time, where rapping about girls, fame and fortune was popular, Skee-Lo counter-acted with a rap about not getting girls, no one liking him, and having no money. Addionne (talk) 18:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Although, this si not true there are many artist out there even one major hit artist that I would consider emo rap, such as hollywood undead, although I must agree we need way more artist added into this thing XXxChriscorexXx (talk) 12:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need more work

This article is in major need of some work, we know emo rap exist, so we cant get rid of it, but we are in need of History, Characteristics, and possibly the Etymology. Seriously we need more sources and stuff like that. If you need some artist I have noticed that Atmospehere, Sage Francia, Emo Side Projects, and Possibly Hollywood Undead. I get it from this particular source however I am not sure if it is accurate. [1] (Before I forget scroll down and it will give you a list, im looking for more sources)XXxChriscorexXx (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Skee Lo

Economic shortcomings is nothing new done by skee lo, that has been around since grandmaster flash and the furious five I think it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomvasseur (talk • contribs) 15:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please remove skee-lo from this thread. His sound has no components of emo music whatsoever. This is either a favorable opinion by a fan of emo or gross negligence by the rest of you going along with this misinformed label. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.162.248 (talk) 04:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)