Talk:Emo (music)/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

"Make Emo History" ?

What is the motivation for the grafiti slogans depicting "Make Emo History" ? Drstorage 19 January 2006

Based on the "Make Poverty History" campaign. In response, people are swapping "poverty" for things they don't like. -- ChrisB 20:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Appearances on The Daily Show?

In the article under the Second Wave section, it says the growing popularity of emo enabled it to be featured as performances on The Daily Show, but I could have sworn Jon Stewart said the White Stripes where the first musical group to ever perform on the show. Can someone verify? BoomBox 19:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The article is talking about an entirely different show, not the Daily Show. It was the John Stewart Show. It was a nightly variety show (like Letterman and Conan O'Brien) that initially ran on MTV, then shifted to syndication. 1994-1995 or so. Stewart regularly had bands on, like Bad Religion, Letters to Cleo, Love Spit Love, etc. -- ChrisB 19:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Gotcha, thanks for the clear up. BoomBox 19:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Emo vs. Art Rock

Any of you here who are more familiar with emo rock...I was just wondering..would you consider emo and art rock to be very similar?? For example: Conor Oberst from Bright Eyes was mentioned under "Emo" and "Art Rock" in Wikipedia. I am so confused! From my listening experience...I'd say his style is more art rock because of his poem-like,lyrical genius and intense emotionally charged singing. But one of the definitions for "emo" given here is identical/very similar to how art rock is perceived. Any input?? THANKS.

                                 --User:GUEST 00:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


"Emo Music" box

Main article: :Template:Emo

I looked at the Grunge Music page and quite liked the box that gave a few key points about the genre of grunge and I was thinking it would be a good idea for someone else to add one for emo. I would do it myself but I'm not totally sure on a few of the details to include.

i looked at the grunge page, and i agree. it's the same as for the metal genres (check those out as well for examples) -- there are like 50 different genres and offshoots of metal (from 80s hair to death metal to troll metal, etc etc). so what needs to be done is to make the emo genre match the overall wikipedia style, we need to add a box at the top of the page that associates emo with hardcore, as well as listing its influences and various sub-genres, and then create pages for all the various sub-generes, and probably a separate page for the emo fashion since that seems to be a whole other thing. maybe even add emo fashion to the emo disambiguation page.
the only problem with this is what should the the new-school form of mtv style emo be called, so as to make a page for it? i have previously called it faux-emo, pop hardcore, etc, but those are just my own inventions. -chadski

Edit - Hey, this is the person who originally suggested the music box. I'd also suggest Washington State as a key area in the formation of modern day emo. The band Sunny Day Real Estate almost make this a worthy addition on their own then you consider all the other bands and you realise how influential it is as a region. I won't add it til there's some feedback or if someone else wants to add it.

yes, SDRE are hugely influential... HUGELY. but the thing is, it's not like they came from a whole scene of similar bands in seattle, they were pretty much the only band that sounded like that that sort of emerged from seattle's HC scene. they were highly unique and didn't even have any bands from the region that then followed their sound... it's almost like they were an anomaly. -chadski

Someone added Long Island to the origins. I removed it because there are no references to it. Unless I overlooked something.. --Klaser 06:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

long island has nothing to do with emo's origins. bands like Glassjaw and The Movielife hail from there, but they both started out as hardcore bands anyway --chadski
Long island is just an extention on the NJ/NY scene of old. evesummernight 14:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Page Vandalized

looks like someone who has no idea what they are talking about went thru and vandalized the entries, AGAIN. i guess since this is wikipedia there is not much that can be done about stopping this kind of behavior... not only is the vandalism against wikipedia's policy, the information that replaces the original information is OPINION, not an encyclopedic-style entry. i am too much of a retard to figure out how to get the pages to revert to where they were a few days ago.

i also think that since we have added a genre box, emo fashion should be moved to its own separate page. maybe this would help cut down on vandalism? i also think that pages need to be created for genres like melodic hardcore (which a band like Dag Nasty solidly belongs in, not emo) as well as pages for the modern incarnation of misnomer emo as that seems to be the kind of stuff people are most interested in putting down when they vandalize the page. --chadski

Hey chad, you seem to know what you're talking about. If you don't mind please IM at DFelon204409 or go here http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=93. I've been compiling list of emo bands by scene and general timeline. Once I've done that I'm going to compose a truly proper write up about the history of emo but I need some help from a lot of different people. I'm no expert in any individual scene so it's going to be tough to research. Also, a word I've ended up using to denote all those bands that mix pop punk with mild flares of hardcore is "popcore." The world doesn't need any more bullshit "-core" genres but this sort of sums up a lot of ideas I've had about that genre. Anyway, ya I'd like to hear from you some time and once I know more about editing Wikipedia pages, I'll make some addition of my own. I just don't want to gunk up this page until I get the coding. - DFelon204409

8.15.05 -

  • i fixed the vandalized page. it's not perfect and parts still need re-writing but i can't do the whole thing myself. i feel this page should be about the emo music genre only, starting with DC and ending in the late 90s when pop hardcore took over, so i made some edits. emo that follows the earlier models still exists and it should be mentioned, but there are only so many hours in my day...
  • created a pop hardcore page (for lack of a better term... dfelon thinks that popcore is a good one too, and i pretty much agree, but i am loathe to coin another "-core" genre, when there are so many journalistically lazy ones out there.. afraid that popcore would just get lost amongst the other "slowcore" "cuddlecore" "kindercore", etc).
  • i moved emo fashion to it's own page (dfelon thinks it should be retitled to "scene fashion" - opinions?), because this topic is big enough and removed enough from the music genre itself to warrant separate documentation.
  • created a separate page for melodic hardcore. some bands are unjustly lumped into emo that are actually just melodic HC bands - Dag nasty is a prime example.
  • edited the disambiguation page to point to some of these new pages, i am hoping it will cut down on the vandalism

--chadski

  • scene fashion sounds good
  • pop-hardcore is a good idea as well, fashion-core should redirect to there... lol.
  • pop hardcore didn't "take over" in the late 90's...
  • dag nasty is borderline. melodic hardcore definately defined the emo movement. my personal opinion is that they are influential in the actual construction of the emo genre. rites of spring and
  • there ARE so many hours in a day, and so many wiki's to work on. and this is a very, very difficult one to work on. imo.
  • i dissent on 21st century emo. wherever that was posted. whatever is directly related and the norm among the pseudo-mainstream should be put up there. aka the pop-hardcore-er's of the world, the softcore-ers, the dinosaur-core-ers, they should be at least discussed in concise detail relating to their relevance and impact on the whole scheme. meaning, emo's gotten a bit of jazz lately. (and by jazz i mean buzz). and that's so terribly important to touch on at the end. (and also in the intro, i negelcted to do that when i updated the intro.) even though the disamb is changed, we really need to demarcate the paces of emo.

For earlier discussion see Talk:Emo/Archive 1

Cleanup

If someone is really bored, they should attempt to organize this discussion page, because there's absolutely no coherence to any of these discussions. If you edit this page, please, for the love of music, sign your posts, separate posts, use bullets, and make it NCO (which is NEAT CLEAN AND ORDERLY).

THANK YOU. --evesummernight 04:48, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

I've marked the article as disputed, because it seems to me to have some pretty serious neutrality and lack of citation issues. I'm not an expert by any means on emo - I actually came here to find out more about it, because I had heard the word kicked around a lot but hadn't heard a very good definition about what it was all about and its background and whatnot. The article seems pretty biased against emo. In the criticisms section it basically disses on emo, but none of the criticisms are sourced - it just says people think this or that. Who specifically dislikes emo, and cite a source to where they criticize it. Also find where emo people have responded to the criticism! (and include and cite that)

The "sexism" section was particuarlly problematic. It givees three examples of supposed sexism in emo culture:

  • I hope the next boy that you kiss has something terribly contagious on his lips Brand New - Jude Law & A Semester Abroad
  • You can lead a whore to water and you can bet she'll drink and follow orders Glassjaw - Pretty Lush
  • I'm too fly and shy, like no other guy, I'm too fly and shy just for you Glassjaw - Lovebites and Razorlines

But only the middle one could you make much of a case that it was actually sexist. The first example sounds spiteful and vindictive, but there's nothing particuarly sexist about it. The third lyric sounds like someone who's just being a weirdo/show-off, but where's the sexism?

Then there's this long sentece/paragraph:

"However, more are begining to understand that using the simple observation that most emo artists identify as male as the basis for the cause of sexist undertones in emo culture and songs is actually heterosexist."

That's 1. an assertion of (not presentation of) an opinion/belief, and 2. assumes as give the truth of the belief that there are actually "sexist undertones in emo culture and songs."

Blackcats 23:42, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

reply. i think that this whole entire article contradicts itself. in the beginning the view of emo is that of emotional hardcore, a genre that started in the 80s, and long since its scene has been exhuasted. but everything else pretty much, for instance emo fashion, and critism, its all based on a meaning of emo that is not being defined on the top of the page, but instead the extremely distorted and wrong mainstream view of emo.

aug. 1st 2005

I'd like to see you guys make the needed edits, rather than disputing the article. I agree w your complaints, but I'd rather see you get down to business, clean up the article, and remove the dispute header. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 02:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

id gladly clean up the article. infact i have before, however every time i do some one seems to put it right back.

august 2nd replies

i agree that the article somewhat contradicts itself - but that has to do with the nature of the genre itself and what has happened over the years to what has been an ill-defined term in the first place. what people call "emo" these days is not what i personally consider to be real emo. i consider the real emo to be like, from 1985 (rites of spring, embrace) up to the late 90s, maybe ending with Lifetime, when the "faux-emo" mtv bands started co-opting lifetime's sound, and the 97 youth crew revival started. there are very very few bands out there playing that revolution summer emo sound these days, and i just can't accept that all these mainstream bands on Fuse, M2, and warped tour are "emo" (in the traditional sense). anything but -- call 'em pop- hardcore, pop-punk, faux-emo, all those labels i can accept. however, who is to say where "real emo" ends and something else begins? a fan of the new bands would most likely take offense at having their favorite music being labelled "fake" anything.

it would be great to somehow split this article in two to describe the schism between the two scenes, but there is no alternate label for what is being labled by everyone (especially clueless mainstream press) as "emo" these days. i personally call it "faux-emo" because it's... well, fake emo. it's pop-hardcore (likening it to to pop punk), it's pretty much everything BUT real emo. however, a possible solution would be to have some kind of rigid timeline that breaks everything down in order and discusses the evolution of the sound based on sets of years and important bands/records of those eras?

as far as citation issues on criticisms of certain bands and whatnot... how can you cite something like popular opinion? do i need to dig thru 10 years worth of 90s fanzines to find snippets of commentary on specific bands? or locate offhand comments on 20 different messageboards around the internet (whose contents are transitory at best)? i do think that some citations from the book Dance of Days would beef up the historical roots section and give some definitive authority to the roots of the genre - which would also by contrast make a good case for the illegitimacy of mainstream "emo".

in commenting on the other discussion about sexism, i personally don't understand the contentions that emo (or at least the current bands, as much as i dislike them) are sexist. i don't see it. the early to mid 90s PC crowd that followed emo was anything but - the scene was made up of PC police that would jump on you for even looking at a girl wrong or attempting to "score on chicks" at shows. the current lyrics that are claimed as sexist with screamo and mainstream faux-emo pop-hardcore bands are basically "stabbed in the back" hardcore lyrics re-written to be about boy-girl relationships, written from the boy point of view. chadski

Better example lyrics need to be used but the accusations have been made. Also, maybe emo fashion should be a page unto itself. Ditto emo criticisms. --80.4.224.6 21:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


Or even add several slashes (-) as the last line of your post.

Change

I added a Daria pic, i believe she is the iconoclic personality of Emo culture. If anyone would like to add something towards go ahead.

Though it's not there now, thanks for the reference. I've been hearing the term "emo" a lot lately (web comics like Sinfest and Questionable Content), but haven't been able to get a sense what it is. (And "emotional" doesn't explain anything to a newcomer. I haven't heard of any of these bands. Sorry.) Daria has a strong and consistent personality. If she really is representative of the Emo scene, she should (IMO) be mentioned in the article. -- Chris (24.5.12.147 18:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC))

Organization

I've excepted the new change. it seems to have the same info on what emo is and less clichy trendy stuff on it. but sersiously, it need to be organized, i can hardly tell what im looking at. -Aug.18

It makes sense to me. I believe chadski is working on that. When my work ends next Tuesday I'll be fixing a lot of stuff up. I'll write out the modern emo information, etc. -DFelon204409

 ?

Why do people hate emo some much anymore? All of these new pop crap bands are mildly emo, like GC or FOB. I suggest that some people get their facts straight.

What happened to all the "emo kids are fags" content? It used to say emo girls liked gay guys, and etc... Sam Spade 22:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

This article needs merged w 21st Century Emo

They should not have been separated in this way. Please merge 21st Century Emo ASAP. Sam Spade 23:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Green Day and Linkin Park

These bands were added to the list of bands that are called emo, and I know that list is not calling the bands emo, per se, but frankly, people don't really call those bands emo. Green Day is called punk, or pop-punk, maybe, and Linkin Park is called crap most of the time :). But in any case, those bands have not been called emo often enough to merit inclusion on this list. --ParkerHiggins 01:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard of either Green Day or Linkin Park refered to as "emo."

i actually heard (in spin, silly enough (i think it was refering to the uh, summer sanatarium tour (or some major tour)) of them being emo-something... green day, never... but linkin park... i have... evesummernight 14:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Linkin Park simply doesn't fit in any form of emo music, whatever spin may suggest. Mwhale 04:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
  • The only reasons Green Day is considered emo is because of their new fashion statements that either mock emo or mark their changes, but Boulevard. is considered emo-ish by alot of people, but I really think it is just a rock song.