Wikipedia talk:Embedded list

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WikiProject Lists This page is part of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

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[edit] What we REALLY need: Collapsible Lists!

Certain lists are quite appropriate right where they are, but have been tagged for cleanup because they do not quite deserve their prominence in an article. We need a feature to support these more naturally.

Collapsible lists are the answer: they would remain inside the relevant articles where most appropriate, yet they would initially be out of view to avoid cluttering the default view. Clicking the "+" or the text on a line such as "+ Listing of imminent Wikipedia features" would then expand the list in place underneath. It could be just as easily hidden by clicking "- Listing of imminent Wikipedia features" or just by reloading the page.

Who can implement a great COLLAPsible solution like this? We need to do the right thing here -- with better software -- and resolve many of the List-Or-No-List battles across the WikiRealm.

(Editorial: Many lists are NOT appropriate, such as those which grow unreasonably long, which lack any natural ordering (such as alphabetic or chronological), or which do not naturally fit the parent article. However, the lists in plenty of tagged articles are really not inherently "unencyclopedic" -- and the definition of that word is surely subject to change with the advent of electronic encyclopedias such as Wikipedia! Requiring articles to look just like (and no better than) the obsolete in-print Brittanica does not make us "encyclopedic".) Parsiferon 17:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

If you think about it, collapsible lists are the best way to resolve clutter while keeping short lists attached to the most appropriate sections of the articles they belong to. Otherwise we wind up with the usual mess: text-only articles linked to long list-only "articles", with no practical way to keep their sections and subheadings in synch and linked with each other. (Then the lists are deleted. Then they get recreated. Then they are moved again...) Parsiferon 17:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed clarification/exception for bulleted paragraphs

I notice that this style guideline makes an exception for items that would result in a lengthy sentence. I propose a second exception for items that are currently short paragraphs. Sometimes, having them in a bulleted list makes them easier to read than if they were just short paragraphs without bullets. It also doesn't seem right to artificially condense unrelated points into a bigger paragraph. As an example, please see: 2005_Texas_Longhorn_football_team#After_the_season. I think this section is very clear the way it is formatted, though its formatting violates the stipulations currently found on this page. Johntex\talk 18:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that arbitrariness is uncool, and support your exception. And in cases where points are being made, or a specified number is mentioned for the presented things (like "the seven deadly sins are:", then enumeration can be used instead of bullets. -- The Transhumanist    06:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed clarification/exception for a list of accomplishments

I also think this page is too restrictive with regards to items that are traditionally expressed as a list. An example would be a list of records set by an athlete or sports team. While it would be possible to write these as complete sentences, doing so would actually decrease their readability. As an example, please see: 2005_Texas_Longhorn_football_team#Notable_statistics and_accomplishments. I think this section is very clear the way it is formatted, though its formatting violates the stipulations currently found on this page. Johntex\talk 21:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Items with statistics are better displayed in list or table formats, not in paragraph form. Also, the page is very opinionated. Editors have differing styles, and to claim that "lists make Wikipedia worse, not better" is silly. Lists and tables help break up long pages of otherwise seemingly endless text. They also tend to draw the attention of the reader to the items they display and can therefore be very useful for emphasizing important information. The example given seems somewhat contrived and the paragraph is very cludgy because of the dates in parentheses. Let me give it a shot:



As a basic principle, when subsequent paragraphs are children of the paragraph that precedes them, you should avoid merely stacking such paragraphs if they contain information that would be easier to read in a list format. Such "children" logically qualify for indentation beneath their parent description. It is also more acceptable to bold the item entries in lists. For example:


At the beginning of the 20th-century, New York City was a center for the Beaux-Arts architecutural movement, attracting the talents of such great architects as Stanford White and Carrere and Hastings. As better construction and engineering technology become available as the century progressed, New York became the focal point of the competition for the tallest building in the world. The city's striking skyline has been composed of numerous and varied skyscrapers, many of which are icons of 20th-century architecture.

The Flatiron Building, standing 285 ft (87 meters) high, was one of the tallest buildings in the city upon its completion in 1902, made possible by its steel skeleton. It was one of the first buildings designed with a steel framework, and to achieve this height with other construction methods of that time would have been very difficult.

The Woolworth Building, a neo-Gothic "Cathedral of Commerce" overlooking City Hall, was designed by Cass Gilbert. At 792 feet (241 meters), it became the world's tallest building upon its completion in 1913, an honor it retained until 1930, when it was overtaken by 40 Wall Street.

That same year, the Chrysler Building took the lead as the tallest building in the world, scraping the sky at 1,046 feet (319 m). More impressive than its height is the building's design, by William Van Alen. An art deco masterpiece with an exterior crafted of brick, the Chrysler Building continues to be a favorite of New Yorkers to this day.

The Empire State Building, the first building to have more than 100 floors (it has 102), was completed the following year. It was designed by Shreve, Lamb and Harmon in the contemporary Art Deco style. The tower takes its name from the nickname of New York State. Upon its completion in 1931, it took the top spot as tallest building, and at 1,472 feet (448 m), towered above all other buildings until 1973.

When the World Trade Center towers were completed in 1973 many felt them to be sterile monstrosities, even though they were the world's tallest buildings at that time. But most New Yorkers became fond of "The Twin Towers" and after the initial horror for the loss of life in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks there came great sadness for the loss of the buildings. The Empire State Building is again the tallest building in New York City.

At the beginning of the 20th-century, New York City was a center for the Beaux-Arts architecutural movement, attracting the talents of such great architects as Stanford White and Carrere and Hastings. As better construction and engineering technology become available as the century progressed, New York became the focal point of the competition for the tallest building in the world. The city's striking skyline has been composed of numerous and varied skyscrapers, many of which are icons of 20th-century architecture:

  • The Flatiron Building, standing 285 ft (87 meters) high, was one of the tallest buildings in the city upon its completion in 1902, made possible by its steel skeleton. It was one of the first buildings designed with a steel framework, and to achieve this height with other construction methods of that time would have been very difficult.
  • The Woolworth Building, a neo-Gothic "Cathedral of Commerce" overlooking City Hall, was designed by Cass Gilbert. At 792 feet (241 meters), it became the world's tallest building upon its completion in 1913, an honor it retained until 1930, when it was overtaken by 40 Wall Street.
  • That same year, the Chrysler Building took the lead as the tallest building in the world, scraping the sky at 1,046 feet (319 m). More impressive than its height is the building's design, by William Van Alen. An art deco masterpiece with an exterior crafted of brick, the Chrysler Building continues to be a favorite of New Yorkers to this day.
  • The Empire State Building, the first building to have more than 100 floors (it has 102), was completed the following year. It was designed by Shreve, Lamb and Harmon in the contemporary Art Deco style. The tower takes its name from the nickname of New York State. Upon its completion in 1931, it took the top spot as tallest building, and at 1,472 feet (448 m), towered above all other buildings until 1973.
  • When the World Trade Center towers were completed in 1973 many felt them to be sterile monstrosities, even though they were the world's tallest buildings at that time. But most New Yorkers became fond of "The Twin Towers" and after the initial horror for the loss of life in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks there came great sadness for the loss of the buildings. The Empire State Building is again the tallest building in New York City.

Which example above looks more like a sterile monstrosity? Which one was easier to read? Breaking up an article's text in various ways makes it it easier for the reader to follow and remember, because the logical structure is represented in the way the material is displayed, and can be seen as plain as day.

Well, what do you think?

The Transhumanist   17:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 10:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that lists are often better, although even the left side looks fine due to the proper division into paragraphs.--Patrick 08:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unfair comparison

This comparison is unfair because the main difference is that on the left there is more content:

The 20th century architecture of New York City includes numerous icons of architecture, most notably its striking skyscrapers.

At the beginning of the century, the city was a center for the Beaux-Arts movement, with architects like Stanford White and Carrere and Hastings. New York's skyscrapers include the Flatiron Building (1902) where Fifth Avenue crosses Broadway at Madison Square, Cass Gilbert's Woolworth Building (1913) a neo-Gothic "Cathedral of Commerce" overlooking City Hall, the Chrysler Building (1929) the purest expression of the Art Deco skyscraper and the Empire State Building (1931) are all skyscraper icons. Modernist architect Raymond Hood and after World War II Lever House began the clusters of 'glass boxes' that transformed the more classic previous skyline of the 1930s. When the World Trade Center towers were completed in 1973 many felt them to be sterile monstrosities, but most New Yorkers became fond of "The Twin Towers" and after the initial horror for the loss of life in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks there came great sadness for the loss of the buildings.

20th century architecture of New York City

Two questions are mixed up here:

  • whether a list form is better
  • whether extra content is better

Patrick 08:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

  • It looks like we are in agreement then that the admonishment against embedded lists is too harsh and too inflexible. I will take a shot at updating this guideline to reflect the discussion above. Johntex\talk 01:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the new example into the guideline. I did not say that it is OK to bold the items in the list because we have other guidelines that say we only bold the name of the article itself. Johntex\talk 01:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. A more fair comparison would be the following:

The 20th century architecture of New York City includes the Flatiron Building (1902), the Woolworth Building (1913), the Chrysler Building (1929), the Empire State Building (1931), and the World Trade Center (1973).

20th century architecture of New York City

Under this fair comparison, it seems that the list form is better. 98.203.237.75 (talk) 05:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "See Also"

(moved from Wikipedia:Village pump)

We don't seem to be in the habit of putting See Also links in our articles. Isn't it common practice in paper encyclopedias to have a See Also section right under the article title?

For example: Energy See also energy conservation, energy policy, energy engineering.

The reason I bring this up is that some of our articles address a particular meaning of a word, with no indication of where one might turn for information on other senses. On the Conservation page, there is a nice sentence explaining that the page is about the conservation ethic, not laws of conservation in science. But isn't there a simpler way to just put See also Conservation of Energy or whatever totally different meaning a reader might be thinking of? Hawstom 23:29, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I thought "See Also:" was used pretty extensively here. Just go ahead and add wherever you think appropriate. There are also disambiguation pages and disambiguation statements added (usually) at the top of a page where more than one meaning could have lead a reader there - Marshman 00:02, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
"See Also" is not meant for disambiguation. It has more or less the same function as the internal links in the body of the article. It is used when there is no natural place for the link in the text or when a particular link is thought to be very important. Andres 04:09, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Triva sections

I am proposing that Wikipedia:Trivia sections be merged into this guideline as a trivia section is being defined as a list within an article - the main problem with the trivia lists being that they are not organised. This guideline should better guide those who wish to have an embedded list within an article that may or may not contain disorganised or trivial material. SilkTork *SilkyTalk —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 11:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm opposed. Trivia lists are their own distinct problem and deserves their own guideline. Mangojuicetalk 12:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. This guideline is about lists of links; trivia is a list of facts. Different beasts. When lists are bad the info in them is just fine but the list format should be converted to prose to make it more explanatory. When trivia is bad, either the info is fine and the list needs to be integrated into different sections, or the info is impertinent and should be avoided. I also don't agree with using this page as a broad bias against all lists, and don't want to endorse that interpretation by creating a master guideline against different kinds of lists.Wikidemo 12:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah. You know, I'd always seen Embedded lists as being about lists within articles rather than stand-alone lists - I hadn't seen that it was about lists of links. You are right. I had recently adjusted wording on the {{cleanup-laundry}} tag on the basis that Embedded lists was talking about lists within articles. But it's not, it's talking about embedded links. The laundry list is a different thing, and relates more closely to what I am thinking. Perhaps this guideline should be renamed Wikipedia:Embedded list of links to make it clearer? Hmmmm. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 13:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
That's a good point. Maybe "Link lists" or "Lists of links" since it's not clear to me how "embedded" adds any specificity at all (all lists will be "embedded" in articles by virtue of being in the articles). Separately, are you still proposing the merger? If not, you should remove the merge tag from WP:TRIVIA.--Father Goose 18:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm still considering the situation. We have a guideline on standalone lists, but we don't have one uniform guideline on lists within articles - which is what I'd always thought Embedded list was about. The current discussions/guidelines are within Wikipedia:Embedded list, Wikipedia:Trivia sections and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Laundromat. I think it might be helpful if these three areas could be brought together in some way. The WikiProject Laundromat is not a guideline, but it does reveal that there is some feeling that neither Embedded list or Trivia are quite covering the whole of the territory - though it does link to them, as they do link to each other.
If a list contains "links", or "miscellaneous facts", or "insignificant or inessential matters" or "how-to" material, or is "disorganized and unselective", then a unified guideline dealing with that, perhaps under the name Wikipedia:Lists within articles, would be helpful. Perhaps what I'm looking for is not so much a merge, but a new project page that would have summary style break outs into Embedded (renamed "Link lists") and Trivia. Still doing hmmmmmm at the moment. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 08:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the two are discussing different kinds of lists. I don't know that they can/should be merged. I mean, we could put them both on the same page, but I don't see that they overlap in their subject - they do fine on their own. --Cheeser1 04:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if it's just a style / organization matter of putting multiple "don't do this with lists" guidelines on the same page I have no strong feelings either way. So for that purpose you can count my oppose as no opinion. But be careful about combining sections and concepts. Wikidemo 05:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Trivia lists are very different from Embedded lists. No merge -- (Cocoaguy ここがいい contribstalk) 14:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose Trivia sections sometimes take the form of a list, but not necessarily. there is considerable sentiment--I think majority sentiment--for rewriting them in paragraph format when applicable. There are enough problems with lists without getting it involved with this also rather disputed matter. DGG (talk) 07:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the merge tags as I'm persuaded that I have misunderstood the exact nature of the two pages I suggested merging. I will, however, create a proposal: Wikipedia:Lists within articles. And I will suggest changing the name of Embedded list to (Embedded) Lists of links. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 10:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Layout considerations

This is a very good article to refer people to during a WP:GAN, but I wish it mentioned one more angle on the problem: layout. Even if it says nothing else, the rule-of-thumb of not having too much white space, or not making the white space too jagged, would be nice. That's a major part of WP:GAN's objection to lists: they appear too ragged. Organizing the information in a table or turning them into bulleted prose seems to be to be addressing a layout issue as much as anything. I would tackle it, but I'm snowed under with other stuff at the moment. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 00:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Skyscraper example prose is UNGRAMMATICAL, lol...

"NYC's skyscrapers include A, B, C, and D are all icons." Rep07 (talk) 20:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Now fixed. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 22:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)