Talk:Elsie MacGill

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Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
Good article Elsie MacGill was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Contents

[edit] references

I am working on referencing this article -- I've found a number of sources, but haven't gone through them to fact-check the statements in this article. Possible sources are listed in the bibliography... --phoebe 23:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] from the article, no source

haven't found a source for this information yet: "Although unable to pilot the plane due to the weakness of the muscles in her legs, she nevertheless flew on most test flights in the observer's seat. Unfortunately the Maple Leaf did not meet Commonwealth standards, and was not widely built in Canada. However, the CCF had a branch plant in Mexico where the Maple Leaf went into production for their air force as it had excellent high-altitude performance for a trainer, important as they commonly operated from 7,000ft." -- phoebe 03:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Phoebe, thanks for taking the time to look into this, I wrote this so long ago that it was before I habitually pasted in my refs. There are two claims in the section above, the first about her flying problems came from [1] and [2]. The second claim is demonstrable; the aircraft never entered service with any commonwealth nation. That's not a ref, but in this case I'm not sure one is needed, and arguably should be in an article about that aircraft anyway.
BTW, you don't need to put refs on every statement, only ones that are likely to be challenged. For instance, there's no need for a ref on whether or not she really fit skis to the Hurry. Maury 13:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I took the time to carefully reference it because a few of the sources disagreed; e.g. on her cause of death. In those cases I wanted to cite what I actually used. There aren't very many sources that even mention her at all, so I had fun tracking her down. cheers, -- phoebe/(talk) 23:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually it's a bit surprising how little is "out there" on McGill, given her place in Canadian aviation history and in the women's rights movement. In fact I was recently at the Toronto Aerospace Museum and there was a display there on women in aviation, and she was missing entirely! Odd. Maury 01:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the affair

The firing of MacGill and Soulsby is covered in the CBC documentary by former factory workers. At the time it was believed Soulsby had treated the Navy brass poorly, but it was later revealed that they had been fired for having an affair. I personally find this fascinating, that one could be fired for something that is now commonplace and even expected (workplace couples).

I had originally mentioned this in the article, but the content was removed at some point. Anyone offer an explaination?

Maury 22:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, here's your diff:
At this point the factory looked for new work and ended up with a contract from the US Navy to build SB2C ::Helldivers. This production did not go nearly as smoothly, and a continual stream of minor changes from ::Curtiss-Wright meant that full-scale production took a long time to get started. The Navy became increasingly ::frustrated and visited the plant, and the next week, MacGill and the production line boss, Bill Soulsby, were both ::fired. Rumors spread about shoddy treatment by the Navy brass from Soulsby, but these turned out to be untrue. The ::real reason was that the two were carrying on an affair, which became public in a somewhat ironic fashion when ::Soulsby and MacGill married two weeks later, rendering their firing moot.
MacGill and Soulsby then moved to Toronto and set up an aeronautical consulting business.
I'm happy to put it back in if it's mentioned in the CBC documentary; I think I took it out because I couldn't find a reference in anything I looked at and it sounded so anecdotal. best, -- phoebe/(talk) 08:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely in the doc -- I just saw a part of it on the History Channel again (they play it a lot). Any ideas on how to go about generating a ref? You'd think I'd know this, my sis works at the CBC and all... Maury 19:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

was it something from the CBC -- this? or the Rosies of the North documentary? If it was "Rosies", I'd cite it like:
* Saxberg, Kelly (director). (1999). "Rosies of the North." Documentary produced by the National Film Board of Canada. IMDB.
-- phoebe/(talk) 06:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the pages, it's definitely Rosies! I'm fixing the ref now. Maury 12:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I am nominating this little slip of an article for a GA because I think it's a nice biography of an important but understated historical figure. I did some pretty thorough research, and am convinced that there is not much more on her to find than what is listed here; since GA is supposedly especially for "short articles unlikely to make it to FA" I am testing that theory out. :) -- phoebe/(talk) 08:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Review-- GA on hold

I first came across this article while compiling the List of polio survivors, I am glad that you nominated it as a GA. Elsie was a fascinating individual and led such an interesting life, I wish I could have met her. Overall this article is well written and gives a nice overview of Elsie's life, but there are probably a few bare spots. In the course of researching "the list" I came across this article http://www.collectionscanada.ca/women/002026-409-e.html, which you may be able to use to expand this article in a few places that might be lacking, such as additional info about her struggle with Polio, as well as her personal life. The article also includes a complete breakdown of honors and medals she received (are all of them listed here?) as well as a very nice list of further reading that could be added to this article. I think that it is very close to a GA, regardless of it's length, if just a few more details could be added.

As I said, overall the article is nicley written, I do have a few suggestions to improve the flow and have spotted a few other issues. I will list the article as "on hold" for seven days to give you time to perhaps expand the article and to address the concerns/suggestions I have listed below (if you need longer please let me know). If there is a good reason to not complete some of my suggestions let me know and I will adjust my thought process rather than just fail the article. Please let me know on my talk page when you finish or if you have any questions. --DO11.10 18:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Add (CC&F) after the first instance of Canadian Car and Foundry
  • Reword "MacGill became the first Canadian woman to graduate with a degree in electrical engineering from the University of Toronto in 1927." for clarity (it reads to me like she was the first Canadian woman at University of Toronto in 1927 to earn the degree, but it was all of Canada, right?) Something like: "MacGill graduated from the University of Toronto in 1927; she was the first Canadian woman to earn a degree in electrical engineering." might be better. (?)
  • "In 1934, she started work at Fairchild Aircraft's Canadian operations in Montreal, as Assistant Engineer." Is this actually Fairchild Aircraft Ltd. (Canada)? Then the sentence could be more clearly stated as: In 1934, MacGill started work at Fairchild Aircraft in Montreal, as an Assistant Engineer.”
  • “where she designed and tested a new trainer”, change trainer to “training aircraft”, link Commonwealth to Commonwealth of Nations
  • The bit about Ft. William's road connections strays the reader. I would remove this bit leaving behind "For much of the war MacGill's primary task was to streamline operations in the construction of the Hawker Hurricane, which the factory at Ft. William was selected to build for the RAF. The factory quickly expanded from about 500 workers to 4,500 by war's-end, half of them women[4], eventually producing over 1,400 Hurricanes by 1943 when production ended[5]."
  • MacGill was also responsible for the fitting (the planes with?) skis and developing de-icing controls for winter operations. “…reflecting the public’s fascination with this female engineer”
  • This bit "Afer<sp> the Hurricane production line ended, the factory looked for new work and ended up with a contract from the US Navy to build SB2C Helldivers. This production did not go nearly as smoothly, and a continual stream of minor changes from Curtiss-Wright meant that full-scale production took a long time to get started. MacGill and E.J. Soulsby, the former works manager of Canadian Car, were married in 1943[4]"--Did something happen here? Was she fired, did the plant close down, did she just feel the need to move on…it feels like something is missing from this passage, since the article then jumps to her personal life.
  • Macgill’s (book?) "Factors Affecting the Mass Production of Aeroplanes" won her the…
  • “…made her an honorary member with a medal and named her "Woman Engineer of the Year," the first time that the Award had gone to a scientist outside the United States”. ("With a metal" distracts from the more important part “and named her woman of the year”.)
  • You could probably just link to Amelia Earhart instead of the Amelia Earhart Medal, I think that the context of Amelia Earhart gives a pretty good idea why receiving a medal named after her would be a high honor.
  • “…as national president of the Canadian Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs from 1962 to 1964[7]”--Missing a period here
  • Three years later she was inducted into the Canada's Aviation Hall of Fame.

--DO11.10 18:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe I have incorporated all of these... I couldn't find the missing period though. Let me know if I've missed anything. Nice suggestions BTW, these are far more useful than the normal GA cruft I get. Maury 20:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the speedy response! It looks like you have addressed most of my concerns above. However, taking a second look I wonder if "Canada Car and Foundry" is really an appropriate section heading for the content of that section. The missing period was taken care of, (or I just imagined it) but now some of the citations appear inside the punctuation, some are outside, and citation number 6 seems to have been lost. Also, I just noticed that there is a quote lacking (and in need of) a citation: "I have received many engineering awards, but I hope I will also be remembered as an advocate for the rights of women and children."
I would still like to see a bit more information about her polio and personal life incorporated into the article, if at all possible. I think that this information would help fill out the article, and ensure that Elsie's story here is as comprehensive as possible. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks and Cheers!--DO11.10 02:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
yes, thanks for your comprehensive comments! I haven't been able to find much about her personal life beyond what's already here (details are sparse); but will keep looking and plan to work on this in the next couple of days. best, -- phoebe/(talk) 06:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, all fixed on those items too (not easy in Safari, you can't Find in editable fields -- bug report filed). I think the last "short term" item we can discuss is the heading, how about "Engineering" or "Engineering career"? I also think we should change the last heading to highlight her work in women's rights, as opposed to the awards. Maury 12:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I'm leaving the link to the medal, I do intend to make an article on that at some point. Maury 12:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice job on the changes, Maury. I think that those section headings are much better, and I like that you have added some additional information. However, the citation in the article (no.7 http://www.collectionscanada.ca/05/0509/050950/05095006_e.html ) while it is from the website as the one that is listed above, the no.7 link is far more brief and does not explicitly verify the text. I would change ref 7 to http://www.collectionscanada.ca/women/002026-409-e.html.
To address expansion, a couple of things that might be added to the article:
  1. I would mention in the lead that she was the first woman aircraft designer in the world.
  2. That she had wanted to be a pilot but as a result of her disability due to polio she couldn't, but that she "insisted on always being a passenger on all test flights. According to her, this was how she could best assess the aircraft's performance." And maybe that "She spent her years of recuperation in her bed and in a wheelchair writing articles on aviation and working on aeronautical design." [3]
  3. That Soulsby was a widower with two children. (This helps to answer a pervasive question regarding of all successful women scientists, whether or not they had children, esp. in the 40's and 50's. It doesn't appear that she had children of her own, but she probably would have had a hand in raising his children?)
Ah ha! Found a confirmation of that "Although her lame body would not have tolerated childbirth, Elsie MacGill did have a loving husband, E.J. Soulsby, a widower whom she met years earlier at Fairchild Aircraft, and stepchildren, Anne and John, who were 11 and 14 years old at the time of her 1943 marriage." [4]

I also think that the non-duplicate "Suggested readings" on http://www.collectionscanada.ca/women/002026-409-e.html should be added to bibliography section.

I hope that you don't mind my suggestions here, I realize that it is a bit outside the normal GA process, but the article is just so close to being complete... If you feel that I have overstepped my bounds as a GA reviewer here I will rightfully relist the article for another reviewer.--DO11.10 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
No, thanks for all your great solutions. Re: "first woman aircraft designer in the world," I am not positive that is true -- the only ref I've found is that she was the "world’s first woman chief aeronautical engineer." Not sure if we know one way or the other if there were other female aeronautical engineers (non-chiefs). She was certainly one of the first, though. Edit: aha, I see in the collections canada link it says she was the "the first woman aircraft designer". -- phoebe/(talk) 20:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the "first" definitely belongs in the intro, although I hate having to put refs in intro paras. Do you think we're safe putting it there but leaving the ref where it is in the later section? Also, note that she was 38 when they married, it's unlikely (especially given the era) that they would have had children together regardless of the polio. Given that there are no children together, I'm not sure if we need to mention it either way. Maury 18:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem referencing it later, but that might look odd given that there are two refs in the lead. Would you move those down also? The reason that I mention the children and polio aspect is that the article includes little information about her personal life, I thought it might help round out that aspect. If you feel the children part is unnecessary it is probably okay to it leave out. --DO11.10 20:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, do we pass or fail at this point? I can't find anything immediate on the early years that seems solid enough to put in. Everything else is done, I think. Maury 18:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The bit about her being the first female aircraft designer has not been added to the lead (or anywhere else), nor has the source been corrected. Although I still think that more information could be added, I beleive that the article satisfies the good article criteria. With these two additions I will pass the article. --DO11.10 23:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions and GA pass

Bzuk has made some nice additions here. Since I haven't had a response, I will add in the two changes I mentioned above, and pass the article. Good job all. The only concern I have is that there are too many pictures. Would it be possible/reasonable to put the two airplane images in a gallery at the bottom of the article? Maybe before the "see also" section?--DO11.10 17:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] bibliography

Hello all,

do you think a bibliography of MacGill's published engineering papers would be helpful here? There are eight of them that show up in Compendex (though four seem to be the "factors in mass production" article, reprinted); it would be easy to make a list. Or would that be too much detail? -- phoebe/(talk) 19:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I think that they could simply be added to the current bibliography section.--DO11.10 20:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of May 29, 2008, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR.

The GA review can be found here. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)