User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment

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Notice This page, started on April 17, 2008, is for discussion of Hungarian/Slovakian disputes, broadly-defined, as well as some other peripheral disputes related to Central and Eastern European countries
Archive
Archives
1, 2 (naming discussions), 3, 4


Contents

[edit] Ground rules

This page is an experiment, as part of my (Elonka's) involvement with the ArbCom-designated Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. As I write this, there seems to be a dispute involving Hungarian and Slovakian articles. The dispute is de-centralized, and is taking place in edit summaries, userpages, talkpages, and administrator noticeboards. The dispute seems to involve multiple editors, and some anonymous accounts. Since it is extremely difficult to follow everything that's going on on every page, I have created this central page, and recommend adding a pointer to this page from all the locations of disputes.

I am an uninvolved administrator in this discussion, I have no preference for either side. However, I do insist that:

  • Participants remain civil
  • Edit wars cease
  • Anyplace that an article is reverted, that an explanation either be posted on that article's talkpage, or a pointer be placed on that article's talkpage, which links interested editors to here.

It is my hope that with a centralized point of discussion, that we'll be able to reduce the confusion, and those editors who are genuinely interested in having civil discussions towards determining consensus, will be able to do so.

Please feel free to start any threads here that you want, and invite anyone that you wish.

--Elonka 06:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Administrator boards and other threads

[edit] Active threads

[edit] Archived threads

[edit] Bratislava topics

The Central Europe history is very complicated. Bratislava was parts of Hungary 1000 years, but now it is Slovakia capital.(treaty of trianon) Slovakia's own history is very little.Slovaks wrote Bratislava's history on the wikipedia (Bratislava/history chapter, History of Bratislava, Bratislava Castle) and these articles are very one-sided. Because these topics the Slovak nationalist's guarded area, putting NPOV-templates out to them would cause a serious scandal. A good solution would be later if these articles would receive totally protected status, and neutral administrators (not Slavs) could rewrite this themes.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe all this upheaval at wiki is not about Central Europe's complicated history, but rather about a user not familiar with how Wikipedia works. Despite all the warnings on his/her user talk page, User:Nmate keeps making childish jokes about living persons, saying nasty things about non-Hungarian nations, and attacking other editors. Here are some examples:
  • He/she abused Wikipedia's article to claim that Slovakia's prime minister's "true confession" and "self-criticism looking back on the Fico cabinet's activities" is a 17th-century outlaw.[1] Wikipedia is not a place for political commentaries. Please also note that he/she called an IP a "clone" of an established user and a previous unproblematic version of an article "serious vandalism" in his/her edit summary.
  • He/she makes inappropriate jokes about other editors, calling another user "he Czech lion which defending his Slovak siblings"[2], suggesting that two editors are followers of a neo-Nazi leader Marian Kotleba[3] (this was completely uncalled for and especially disturbing for me as my grand father was in a concentration camp), and calling other people's work "dubious Pan-Slavic propaganda".[4]
  • He/she said: "There is a Hungarian joke that whole Slovakia's only history is possible to send in a short mobile phone's text messsage."[5] Maybe it was supposed to be funny, but it has offended many people here.
  • After being warned agianst hate speech, he/she continued in the same tone: "the important historical events should be there and so Slovak historical event is not exist before the 20th century".[6]
Many people have tried to talk to him/her, but it did not work. All the deleted warnings (up to NPA4 if I remember well) may be found in the history of his/her user talk page. I feel a stronger action is needed to show him/her that Wikipedia has some rules that make our work more efficient and pleasant. Tankred (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As for the first point, he cited a source for the most part. If you don't agree with it, you can modify it. You just removed it, although Prime Minister Fico really talked about Jánosik as a role model which is definitely relevant. Your edit may be criticised just as well.
All other cases happened before a Wikiquette Alerts discussion (26 March) for which he's already been warned, presenting these as new cases is a bit misleading.
Let's not forget how he received some of those warnings. He's a relatively new user, so asking him to read WP:CIV would be OK I think.
Regarding offensive edit summaries someone else has also a thing or two to learn despite being an experienced user. Squash Racket (talk) 17:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

For "Bratislava" "(...)has been declared on October 28 in Prague, the leaders of Bratislava (where the majority of the population are Germans or Hungarians, see below) want to prevent Bratislava from becoming part of Czecho-Slovakia and declare the town a free town and rename it Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson City) after US-president Woodrow Wilson.", aaaaand: "(...) Legions on January 1 1919 (only the left river bank; the right river bank, not belonging to Bratislava yet, was occupied only on August 14th). It has been chosen as seat of Slovak political organs over Martin and Nitra]]; the government moved to the city on 4–5 February. On March 27, the town's official new name becomes "Bratislava" - instead of "Prešporok" (Slovak) / "Pressburg" (German) / "Pozsony" (Hungarian)." from History of Bratislava#20th_century - so wherever anyone restored "Bratislava" in pre-March 27 1919 context had falsified history, and highly compromised Wikipedia's credibility, and to say something rude and true to talk about: vandalized those particlular Wikipedia pages. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

When talking about present day city's history, it's common to use its current name. It's not a falsification of history; it's a matter of convenience. See, for example, London.--Svetovid (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names

(previous discussions and polls can be seen in Archive 2)


[edit] Current state of discussion

This is a discussion about a naming convention for places in Slovakia, and specifically about the name(s) to use in other articles (e.g. biographies). I classified many of the previously discussed issues below under "consensus" and "no consensus yet". Of course that's my interpretation, and open for discussion (below). If I missed something relevant, please add it. Markussep Talk 17:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

  • In articles about places in Slovakia, relevant alternative names are mentioned either in the lead or (if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves) in a separate "names" section immediately after the lead
  • Relevant alternative names can be used in articles
  • 1918 is used in the naming convention as turning point
  • Before 1918: the first instance of a name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
  • After 1918: the Slovak name is relevant
  • Minority language (Hungarian, German, Rusyn, ...) names should be added at least once if contemporary census shows more than 20% of the population of the place belongs to that minority
  • For consistency within an article, use one name as the primary name (alternative names are given in parentheses) unless the context changes within an article (e.g. History of Bratislava)
  • For places that changed names (e.g. Štúrovo was called Parkan before 1948): don't use the modern name as the primary name in contexts before that name was created/first used

[edit] No consensus yet

  • Should (all) relevant alternative names be added or not?
  • After 1918 context does it matter whether the subject of the article is ethnically Slovak, Hungarian or other?
  • After 1918 should the Slovak name be the primary name in articles about Slovaks, and the Hungarian name be the primary name in articles about Hungarians?
  • In pre-1918 context: are Hungarian names always relevant?

[edit] Naming convention

This is a proposed naming convention for places in Slovakia. It is meant to be a specification of guideline nr. 3 (about the use of a name in other articles) of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Given the long shared history of Slovakia and Hungary, it is desirable to mention both the Slovak and the Hungarian name in several cases. This depends on the (historical) context in which it is used:

  • Before 1918: the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)".
    • In biographies of clearly Slovak persons, the name should be used in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively
    • In biographies of clearly Hungarian persons, the name should be used in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively
    • In other cases the order of the names, and which name is used in the rest of the article is arbitrary. If a dispute arises, the name most used in the given context in reliable sources (see WP:NCGN) should be used first, and the other name(s) should be listed in parentheses at the first occurrence
  • After 1918: use the Slovak name. Use Hungarian (or other minority languages) at least once for places with significant Hungarian (or other minority) population, either in the form "Eperjes (Prešov)" and later "Eperjes" exclusively, or in the form "Prešov (Eperjes)" and later "Prešov" exclusively. Significant is more than 20% of the population by contemporary census.
  • For places that changed name (e.g. Štúrovo was called Parkan before 1948): follow the rules above, but use the contemporary Slovak or Hungarian name as the primary name, and also add the modern name as an alternative. Example: for a biography about a 19th century Slovak from Parkan/Párkány/Štúrovo, use "Parkan (Párkány, present Štúrovo)", and later "Parkan" exclusively
  • For places that have another widely accepted (historic) name in English (e.g. Pressburg for Bratislava before 1919): use that name, and mention the modern name and relevant alternative names at the first occurrence.

[edit] Articles in which this convention has been applied

[edit] Consensus check

Does everyone agree that the above convention reflects the current state of consensus? I'd appreciate if everyone could weigh in with "agree" or disagree" (and if you disagree, please state which part that you disagree about). Please note that I am not asking if you like the convention. Instead, I am asking if you think that it more or less accurately reflects a consensus, from the previous discussions viewable at /Archive 2. Consensus on Wikipedia does not require unanimity, but it does require discussion, careful listening to all views, and the weighing of available options. If anyone feels that something was not yet properly discussed, please say so. You are also welcome to say something like, "I don't personally agree with the convention, but I do agree that it seems to reflect current consensus, though of course Consensus may change in the future."

So, do you agree that there is consensus? Or no? --Elonka 20:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Though I can't say whether this reflects a consensus, I wonder if there are any existing town articles or biographical articles where all the names follow the convention. This question might serve as a reality check for whether the convention is well-defined and makes sense. I was going to suggest Bratislava as a test case, but if that's too controversial, can anyone think of another example? EdJohnston (talk) 02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, although if I happen to forget the terms of the consensus in some edits (yeah, I really DO forget some things) please remind me of them (which Tankred, Svetovid, MarkBA etc. will surely do for me after reverting my edits, right? :P) CoolKoon (talk) 15:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Markussep made some edits earlier I think these come pretty close. [7], [8], [9], [10] [11] He wrote and gave the diffs above I'm just copying them here. Hobartimus (talk) 11:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
See also Tankreds comments on the naming convention and my "test edits". He proposes to italicise the alternative names (I don't think we've discussed it earlier, but it's uncontroversial IMO, and it's supported by guidelines), and he asks for evidence of the usage of Hungarian names in English texts. Markussep Talk 12:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I like the above changes, which seem consistent my own understanding of the new naming convention. I agree that italicization of the first use of an alternate name seems harmless and unlikely to be controversial, though we should listen to any objections. It seems worthwhile for people to carefully go ahead and start making conformant changes to articles, but keep returning to this page to present examples of the diffs, to see if any problem is perceived. EdJohnston (talk) 17:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Considering that most of the editors who are saying "there is consensus" are the more Hungarian-leaning editors, I recommend proceeding cautiously. The only Slovak-side editor who has spoken up is Tankred,[12] so I think that his views should be listened to carefully. As for the others on the Slovakian side, Ruziklan has been absent for awhile, MarkBA is blocked for sockpuppetry, and Svetovid is also on a two-week block. I have offered to lift his block so that he could participate here, but he has not replied. I would be happier about signing off on consensus if we had more Slovak input. Then again, "decisions are made by those who show up." What I'd like to avoid though, is a declaration of "Hungarian consensus" now, and then if Slovaks do come by later, I don't want them told, "Sorry, we've already made a decision." But if no one's objecting to a course of action, then that's a kind of "silent consensus", at least for now. --Elonka 18:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I find myself agreeing completely with the comment by Tankred that you highlighted, where he refers to two problems that need fixing. One was his suggestion for italics, and the other was for omitting the Hungarian names of random Slovak villages and of people like Juraj Janosik that apparently don't have any Hungarian connection. Do we have any idea what reservations the other Slovak editors might have expressed if the had joined the poll? EdJohnston (talk) 20:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
You can get a hint of MarkBA's opinion in User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment/Archive 2#Discussion (continued), specifically his comments of 7 May. But he didn't really explain what was wrong with the parts he disliked. Svetovid was involved in a discussion at Talk:Kingdom of Hungary#Disputed edits in articles about counties, his main concern (I think) is similar to Tankred's: (lack of) evidence of the use of Hungarian names for places in Slovakia in English. BTW the Hungarian connection for Juraj Jánošík is that he lived in the Kingdom of Hungary, albeit in an area that never had a large Hungarian population. Markussep Talk 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This is how the article looked about a year ago [13] intrestingly in that version the Hungarian name Jánosik György is listed so the editors back then did think that it had some Hungarian connection. Another intresting thing is that the article lists "Juro" as a variant of the name of the subject and the article was edited by banned user:Juro. The article contains sentences like "Under Jánošík's leadership, the group was exceptionally chivalrous: They did not kill any of the robbed victims and even helped an accidentally injured priest." I'm not sure Eva Krekovičová for example would agree with that assessment. The myth is not separated from fact within the article for example a section is titled "biography". The part where some of the names are is problematic in itself, maybe the article shouldn't contain an unsourced list of "other members" in the first place which is also highly irrelevant to the article, if they are notable they should have their own articles. Even if there was some reason for listing "other members" a sentence would suffice instead of the present list format and adding the home village for each member brings no useful information to the reader anyhow. Hobartimus (talk) 23:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
random Slovak villages that don't have any Hungarian connection? I haven't heard of any such thing. Maybe because all of those Slovak villages were part of the Kingdom of Hungary almost since the beginning (most of those villages were founded in the Kingdom of Hungary) CoolKoon (talk) 08:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, one more thing: I've tried to discuss the issue with MarkBA after he was blocked and asked for his hostility towards Hungarian things in general. Unfortunately the discussion has been forcefully halted by some admins of the Slovak Wikipedia. They were pretty hostile to me and blocked my accound there for 6 months shortly after that. CoolKoon (talk) 08:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


One year ago there were Hungarian names in Juraj Jánošík, but there are still no sources to establish a Hungarian connection. There are plenty of data to show the Slovak and Polish connections. If someone can show that Janosik was a folk hero for Hungarians, and not just for the other two nationalities, that would be enough proof for me, but nobody has established that. I gather that Janosik's residence in the Kingdom of Hungary is a factor to be considered, but I'd hope that is not considered the decisive item. If we do make that a decisive factor, then the vast crowd of small Slovak villages (with little or no Hungarian population) that used to be in the Kingdom of Hungary will also need to be given Hungarian names, which seems undesirable. EdJohnston (talk) 01:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes this would require some research to look into the deteals unfortunately very little real info is known about this person much of it is legends or similar. There is also substantial controversy (not covered by the article) as recently as early 2008 with many opinions conflicting on the topic and in many questions we are left without solid proof. The convention however already provides terms like "clearly Slovak", "clearly Hungarian" person for cases like this. This article would fit into the "clearly Slovak" category in my opinion and only the first instance requires the other name to be present all the following cases the name can be used without the parentheses. If an article contains long lists about "all the villages ever visited by person X" or "all the villages where the non-notable bandits were from" then with such lists instead of a few names per article we get somewhat more. If the article only used names of settlements that were important and related to Jánosik himself and not his fellow bandits it would mean very few names affected. Hobartimus (talk) 02:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is no true cross-national consensus. As to Slovak users, both MarkBA ans Svetovid (only on his talk page because he got blocked in the meantime) refused the proposal. The text right after the "Naming convention" headline in this thread is not what we have agreed upon and it would be perhaps safer to remove it. For example, a number of editors strongly rejected the idea of dividing Wikipedia into two separate bubbles of reality, one for "clearly Slovak" persons and the other for "clearly Hungarian" persons. On the other hand, the list of points created by Markussep above this thread (sections "Consensus" and "No consensus yet") sums up the results of our discussion so far. I think that is a compromise tacitly supported by those who have participated in the discussion. I will be happy to support it if the two points I have raised are adequately addressed. I think the italicized alternative names are totally harmless, in line with the current usage in Wikipedia, and no one objected to them. So, can we add them to the list? As to the evidence for the use of Hungarian names in English sources, I would like to thank EdJohnston and Markussep for their input. I also hope more editors will comment on this issue, as it seems pretty crucial. Tankred (talk) 03:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the above text of the naming convention formed after weeks of discussion several rounds of voting (this could be considered the 3rd round) with the participation of about 15 editors(if we count all "rounds") represents consensus of all the previous discussions and should definitely not be removed. Also we do need some text after all to show for all this time and effort spent in this process initiated by Markussep. Commenting on the idea of requiring "proof" I fear that this could be used by bad faith users to constantly demand "proof" from persons they dislike. Also would lead to more arguments not less and go against stability one of the main points of the convention. I must also point out that a very similar wording "unless it is established (and discussed and documented on the article's talk page) that..." was already proposed (D) recently and was already rejected soundly so proposing something this similar is not a good idea in my opinion. For all these reasons I must strongly reject this idea. However I'd like to see some reasons for the use of italics I feel this could enjoy unanimous support if some good reasons were brought up for the use of them other than lack of reasons not to do this. Hobartimus (talk) 04:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
MarkBA and Svetovid didn't take part in the poll (and that was their decision, they had opportunity to do so, but they refused to).
My only problem with providing evidence for every single place is that it would require too much time and that was the very problem with WP:NCGN.
That is why this whole discussion has been initiated actually here:
Markussep, thank you for your useful suggestions. I generally agree with all of them:
  • The Slovak names of neighboring counties should be mentioned at least at the first occurrence of a county's name in an article. (...)
Cheers. Tankred (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW I couldn't find the diff for the comment, that's why I quoted the relevant part of it. Squash Racket (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, it surely will not be so time-consuming to find evidence that those few major towns that are frequently mentioned in Wikipedia (Bratislava, Kosice, Trnava, etc.) are known under their Hungarian (or German) names in English sources. But why should we refer to smaller settlements in the regions without any significant Hungarian population automatically by their Hungarian names? These names are not used in English. I think the English usage should be the criterion here because it is the English Wikipedia. Although we can all agree that it makes sense to use the name Pressburg for Bratislava in the 19th century, the inclusion of Hungarian names of small villages in the 18th-century northern Slovakia needs some reasonable justification. Tankred (talk) 04:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

In your comment quoted above you agreed to have Slovak names for old Hungarian counties without demanding any kind of evidence for each and all of them.
Also let me have my doubt: in the thread just below I also heard there was no evidence in English. I could find a number of reliable sources available online after just a quick Google search. The problem is doing this little research for hundreds of places or having a general agreement instead.
Regarding major cities (Pozsony, Kassa etc.) I don't think any research is needed. Squash Racket (talk) 04:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I think for this question of research, we could fall back on WP:V. In other words, sources are not required unless information is challenged "or likely to be challenged". If someone legitimately feels that a naming situation is obvious, no extra research might be needed. But as soon as a name is challenged, a source should definitely be provided. If there are lots of good faith challenges, then lots of research might be required, but, well, that's Wikipedia.  :) Would this address concerns, or am I misunderstanding the disagreement? --Elonka 05:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable to me. Are there any objections or we can make it part of the consensus? We should also think about where to discuss relevance of names. WP:NCGN recommends the talk page of the article about the place in question. But it would be perhaps more useful for our group to create a special talk page, on which we would centralize discussions about geographic names (of course, with a thread linked from all other relevant talk pages). Tankred (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

As I understand the discussed guidelines, an alternative name is used only at the first occasion, not every time a place is mentioned. That is how Markussep also applied the results of our discussion in his exemplary edits. Therefore, Nmate's recent edits ([14], [15], etc.) should be corrected and someone should leave him an explanatory message. Another issue is that Bratislava should be mentioned at the first reference to Pressburg, right? So, this edit[16] is not what we have agreed upon and should be corrected as well. I would prefer someone else doing it in order to assure Nmate that this is not only my personal interpretation. Anyone up to this task? Tankred (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I can imagine that English usage would be difficult to verify for the smaller places, especially in historic context. We could also define this in a negative way: mention Hungarian names unless it is shown that they are not used in English. I think there's consensus about using Hungarian (and other minority) names when there is or was a significant local population of that minority. For instance for 1910 Trencsén County that would mean that for the towns Trencsén/Trenčín and Zsolna/Žilina (the bottom two lines in the first table) the Hungarian name is relevant around 1910 anyway, and for other parts of the county (e.g. the Csaca/Čadca district) English usage has to be shown if challenged.
About the italics: the WP:ITALICS guideline recommends to use italics for foreign terms. WP:NCGN says the same, specifically for foreign or historic names. I think it's also more obvious with italics that both names are for the same place. "Trnava (Nagyszombat)" could imply that Trnava is part of Nagyszombat, if you're not familiar with it. Hobartimus, does that answer your question?
Then there's the "bubbles-of-reality" issue: do we use different rules for biographies of Slovak and Hungarian people (before 1918)? Hobartimus removed the issue from the "no consensus yet" list, but I don't think we have consensus here yet. Markussep Talk 14:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the reader would conclude that Trnava is part of Nagyszombat in any case he can just click on the name and get to the article or even type it in the search box if for some odd reason there is no link in the article. The primary meaning of the italics to me is emphasis I don't think they carry any particular meaning in this case but I can be mistaken of course. Was there a case like this where a reader was confused beyond all help and the italics helped him? I have to confess I wouldn't think of this very specific meaning that is being attached to the italics here. I'd be only confused even more by them. It's true that there are not many good reasons against the italics either if I had to say one I'd say it's that readers are not used to italics outside of the lead in the article bodies also the exra time needed to add them. Hobartimus (talk) 23:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ladislav Mednyánszky

Ladislav Mednyánszky (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This article should be moved to László Mednyánszky. If you read it, you'll understand why. It is now however struck between his Slovak (Ladislav) and Hungarian (Mednyánszky) spelling. He was ethnic Hungarian, born, lived and died in the Kingdom of Hungary. The full article is struck between a Slovak interpretation of history and placenames and a Hungarian one. --Rembaoud (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Someone should definitely rename the article. However it should be done by someone who's not on an edit restriction so Tankred wouldn't have to tell on me for violating the controversial EE articles editing restriction imposed on me by Elonka..... CoolKoon (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
If anyone wants to rename this article, I would suggest they initiate a discussion on the article's talk page and show evidence supporting their view that a particular name is widely used in relevant English sources. I would support Ladislav Medňanský as a new name because this is how he is called in Slovak sources. Both his first name and his last name are of Slavic/Slovak origin. He was born in what is now Slovakia and is still considered Slovak there. I do not think Paris and Vienna were part of the Kingdom of Hungary, so I somehow cannot believe Rembaoud's statement "He was ethnic Hungarian, born, lived and died in the Kingdom of Hungary". But this is my personal view. What is more important than what Rembaoud, CoolKoon, and Tankred think is what English sources say. I have never read any English book mentioning him, so I do not know his "English name". If you want to rename this (or any sensitive) article, please provide evidence and citations on the article's talk page. Tankred (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, then let's use this page for the discussion. BTW it's pretty much false reasoning that if somebody has lived in that part of Hungary which is now Slovakia he/she must have been Slovak. Unfortunately many Slovaks agree to this reasoning. And besides I could argue that since Štúr, Hurban, Hodža, Kollár etc. lived in Hungary they must've been Hungarians (although many Slovaks would lynch me for such a statement). As for László Mednyánszky it's interesting that many other nations seem to support our POV: the French; the Germans: [17],[18] and [19];even the Russians: [20] and [21] (hint for those who don't understand the Cyrilic alphabet: search for "Ласло Меднянски" and Vengria is Hungary in Russian). Unfortunately Squash Rocket has found some nice English sources so I won'T have to search for those :P CoolKoon (talk) 07:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times mentions the Hungarian painter several times by his name, László Mednyánszky. Also here and here. Lonely Planet also mentions him by his name, the book Made in Hungary: Hungarian Contributions to Universal Culture also.
The name can be found also in The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, and the The dictionary of art. Squash Racket (talk) 03:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Support moving to László Mednyánszky per all the above. Hobartimus (talk) 10:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This proposal is one week old. Google results also support the Hungarian name. I moved the page, I think we may close this thread now. Squash Racket (talk) 03:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well done ;) CoolKoon (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Support the move. From his birth and upbringing it is hard to tell if his Hungarian or Slovak name should be preferred. It's the general use of his Hungarian name in the English sources that is persuasive. EdJohnston (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] question about "no revert" restrictions

(ported from User talk:Elonka)

I see that you are busy with other issues as well but I have a question about what is appropriate if someone thinks an edit might be a violation of an existing restriction. Is it better to revert the edit or note it on your talk page or the discussion page? Some of these might be complex or someone might be even mistaken in thinking something was a revert, for example an edit [22] and the revert [23] the edit [24] and the revert [25] the edit [26] and the revert [27]. So the question is what to do, where to post in cases like this, on your talk page or the special page, or nowhere just revert the edit with a summary? Some of the cases might be arguable as well or hard to see that it was a revert of an edit a few days before, or some cases thought to be reverts can turn out to be complete non-reverts even. For example in the second case listed above a source was added, which would make it a non-revert, but the quote and it's translation (like you required before) is missing as well as the page number and the information inserted also seems redundant in relation to the text 2 sentences back. Most instances are much more clear cut than that but I'm sure these issues will come in the future as well so a little clarification from you would be helpful about how to act in such cases and what exactly counts as a "revert"? Hobartimus (talk) 16:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, just heading out the door at the moment, so I haven't looked at the diffs in detail. My general advice though, is that if it's not urgent (and content disputes usually aren't), bring it up at the article talkpage, and/or the experiment page. Even if this leaves the article in a "wrong" state for a few days, it'll sort itself out in the long run. See WP:DEADLINE, especially View Two. --Elonka 16:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I took a look at the Bratislava diffs, and will check the others later. However, if you feel that someone has violated their restrictions, I would encourage you to speak up about it if you think that it will head off future problems. Your best bet is probably a polite message to the user's talkpage, pointing out what you feel was a violation, and explaining how the editor can do better (and why it's a good idea). --Elonka 04:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
This is not urgent at all so It can wait until you have the time to look at the diffs, the main question is what exactly constitutes a "revert" in this context. Also I wanted to ask, what is your opinion of the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct process? Do these usually result in some type of action by the community or not so much? Hobartimus (talk) 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I generally see the User Conduct RfC as something of a last resort, when other measures have not been effective. It may also be useful for very complex cases, where the involved editors have not been successful in coming up with a solution, and they are genuinely looking for outside input. There have been some calls for doing away with the process entirely, though I have definitely seen cases where the RfC has been useful in raising awareness of a problem. In other cases though, I have seen it used as a "club" to try and embarrass or intimidate an editor, rather than to try and find a solution.
It often depends on which uninvolved editors show up to participate in the Request. Sometimes you get lucky and get some genuinely thoughtful opinions, other times you get the "conflict junkies" who may actively make the situation worse. I would recommend that you look at some previous RfCs, to get a sense of how they work. Or even better, look at some of the current ones, and try to go in as an uninvolved editor and offer a comment. This will often be a rapid way of identifying the challenges involved in offering a cogent opinion.
In terms of the Hungarian-Slovakian disputes, I don't think an RfC/U would offer very much beyond what we're already doing. If you feel that someone needs to be topic banned or blocked, you could just bring it up at the Experiment page, which also serves as a limited form of RfC, ANI, and Wikiquette alerts, all rolled into one.  :) Or if you think that a problem isn't being properly addressed, then please feel free to bring it up in more detail, so that we can examine what other solutions are available. If you're not comfortable discussing it on-wiki, you (or anyone) is also free to send me an email, or contact me in IMs. --Elonka 18:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CoolKoon

CoolKoon (talk · contribs)

(copying from User talk:Elonka)

Hi Elonka, this Nmate's edit[28] clearly violates his editing restrictions. It is not very civil to call another editor "an ultra agressive vandal" and a legitimate complaint at the Wikitequette alerts "an Hungarian ethnic slander". This was done in support of CoolKoon, who was reported at the Wikiquette alerts after he called a female editor a "little pussy" and two editors "stupid" (see [29] for his original comment in Slovak). He repeated his attack later[30] and then posted another, this time less vulgar ad hominem message[31]. The editing restrictions from the Digwuren case explicitly say that editors are not allowed to be uncivil or to make personal attacks. MarkBA and Svetovid are currently blocked for long periods because they violated their editing restrictions and many of us have been punished for even less serious transgressions. I hope you will look at this case. I would like also to notify you that I may be away until the end of the week, so I will not be able to participate in the discussions on your experimental page. Cheers. Tankred (talk) 15:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I need language assistance please. It appears that CoolKoon is blocked on the Slovak Wikipedia. If I'm reading this right, it's for 6 months?[32] Also, can another Slovak speaker please verify the above comments made by CoolKoon? Thanks, Elonka 16:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Although I can not speak Slovak but I studied Russian long ago. Tankred and AtonX intentions contain a fashionable Slovakian political character. And to be a Slovakian administrator It does not mean a huge prestige if AtonX complaining about CoolKoon here.Nmate (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to talk about it in public. Elonka, please send me an email if you are interested CoolKoon (talk) 17:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't a civil comment from CoolKoon, for example the second sentence can be translated as "You are so simple, that you're don't even able to speak English". A good Slovak-English-Slovak online translator can be found here: [33] (word-by-word so slow, but knows most of the nasty and slang words too). You can translate CoolKoon's comment pretty well with it, however many letters has specific accents, therefore for example, you can't find "Hocico" but you can "Hocičo" (wich is "Whatever"[34] btw.) Try the "base" of the words in these cases then. Staying at hocico, if the dictionary does not find, try removing letters as long, as it shows some hits; hocico is in the list when you type "hoci" [35]. --Rembaoud (talk) 16:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please find my translation of CoolKoon's comments below. If there is any other Slovak-speaking person around, please verify the accuracy of my translation. I would also love to hear Elonka's opinion regarding this incident. The translation of the first comment is: "Whatever. You can thank a little pussy Bubamara and a 'Superslovak' Bronto for they did your dirty work. Pity they're so stupid that they don't speak English. Otherwise, I'd tell them it face to face."[36][37] The second comment (plausibly in reaction to a complaint at the Wikitequette board) can be translated as: "........ It isn't enough for you to kick me out from the Slovak Wikipedia, right? You also want to ban me for at least 6 months here, right?".[38] Nmate's comment[39] is written in English, so there is no need for translating. I still wander what exactly makes an administrator of the Slovak Wikipedia "an ultra agressive vandal" and why a legitimate complaint against a Hungarian user was labeled as the "ethnic slander". I have seen this automatic and unrestricted support of the fellow co-ethnics on administrative noticeboards before and I believe it is a powerful weapon capable of skewing any discussion in a harmful way. Tankred (talk) 06:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battles of Bratislava

1 Pressburg, 2 battle (singular) 3 has no sources or references yet --Rembaoud (talk) 20:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

If you know any reliable English sources using the term "Battle of Pressburg", please cite them here. I doubt there are any because the name Pressburg did not exist in 907 and English sources use the name "Bratislava" when referring to the city in the early Middle Ages. The article describes three battles, that is why the plural is used. You are right that the article does not have references and you are welcome to add some. Tankred (talk) 15:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Tankred, if you had had took the time to look at what you are talking about, you probably would have noticed that it does not contain any sources or references at all. So nothing justifies the current content and name. "Battle of Pressburg" has the highest number of hits on Google [40] and all the other search engines. Pressburg, and (singular) battle. In Hungarian, it is singular also, plural version has only 3 hits [41], and they are about current or that time current political issues in Slovakia. --Rembaoud (talk) 14:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I searched Google Books (see the talk page of the article), and found that several names are used, including Bratislava and Pressburg. Markussep Talk 15:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I think Bratislava name would be the worst solution here because Hungarians fought with Bavarians and it was not a Slovak business at all.Nmate (talk) 07:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I renamed the Battles of Bratislava because I think it is the best soultion.Nmate (talk) 17:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 78.99.65.151 & 78.99.33.176 (MarkBA again? playing out his restrictions)

78.99.65.151 (talk · contribs)

[42] + [43] + 78.99... = User:MarkBA

I have a bet on this. A bottle of any kind of beer. :) Does "checkuser" process always needed? --Rembaoud (talk) 22:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

+ 78.99.33.176 (talk · contribs)

[44]. Obvious. --Rembaoud (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment. Both accounts have been blocked. If you see any others, let me know. :) --Elonka 22:59, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
On enforcement [45]. Hobartimus (talk) 23:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Correct, any edits by sockpuppet accounts, can be reverted without consequence. --Elonka 23:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Does these constant evasion attempts and controversial edits have any impact on Mark's temporary banning? I mean three new "sockpuppets", (including one new user+their edits) should have an effect on Mark's banning: in an extension. Or something. Imho. --Rembaoud (talk) 14:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing more to extend, MarkBA exhausted the patience of the community to such a level that he is now banned indefinitely, see his user page and block log. Hobartimus (talk) 15:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't noticed that. Its a bit harsh though to raise it immediately to infinite indefinite (what is this meaning?)... but well, he had all the time and possibility to avoid not only this, but any of the restrictions and bans he got. --Rembaoud (talk) 20:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

MarkBA started sockpuppeting in March so it took months of abuse, hardly an immediate thing. After some point enough is enough. Hobartimus (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. What does "indefinite" mean here? (I know the translation) Is it a bigger or a smaller punishment than (definite) 6 month? Or you really wanted to write infinite but accidentally mixed words? --Rembaoud (talk) 11:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The BLOCK was extended from the previous length of 3 months so it's longer, in this case there is also the BAN from CE EE topics, you should try reading WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN if it's still not clear. Hobartimus (talk) 14:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this user is a newer MarkBA sockpuppet account:

+ 78.99.132.221 (talk · contribs)

Nmate (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms of Slovakia

Coat of arms of Slovakia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

I think the unsourced additions should be removed from the article.Nmate (talk) 17:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove the unsourced statements from it and I will not be patient for a long time.Nmate (talk) 17:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New home

Okay, this "Experiment" has been going really well, and I am very proud of all that we have accomplished.  :) I have seen many people learn new ways of dealing with disputes, and some really good articles are developing. I've also been getting positive feedback from other Wikipedia administrators, that they liked what we've done here, and would like to try out some of the techniques in other areas of conflict on Wikipedia. So congratulations!  :) I know that some of the things that we did here were not easy, but I really appreciate how much everyone was working hard to learn new ways to communicate and edit. I have especially been pleased when I saw people reaching out to former enemies, and be willing to forgive and move forward.

As the first step of formalizing this Experiment into something that other people can study, I'd like to move this page to a new home, so it's no longer an "experiment". Any ideas on what a good name would be? Other projects have used things like "Cooperation board" or "Reconciliation project", but we're open to new suggestions as well. I am also open to any feedback that anyone has about how this Experiment developed over the last month or two, and ways that we could have done things better. Or, if there was anything that you thought was particularly helpful, which we should be sure to teach to other folks who are trying to deal with complex disputes, please bring it up! Thanks, --Elonka 04:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Selling the format, huh? :) I think this page should stay as a common notice and talkboard for this topic, and should be renamed to reflect that. My suggestion would be "Slovak-Hungarian common talkboard" or something similar. --Rembaoud (talk) 20:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spiš and Spiš Castle

This move and these edits to the Spiš and Spiš Castle by Nmate are clearly against the whole spirit of this experiment. Nmate replaced Slovak names with Hungarian names and also removed Slovak alternative names. As anyone can see above, the #consensus was to include alternative names in pre-1918 contexts like this, not to replace them. I urge Nmate to stop this kind of editing immediately, and I will edit the articles in a way that they follow the consensus. Markussep Talk 17:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The naming convention says "Before 1918: the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. "Eperjes (Prešov)" or "Prešov (Eperjes)"." So the first reference should list both names. Note that the articles were non-compliant with the convention before and after Nmate's edits so actually there was no change in this regard. Unless you make personal attacks on Nmate I don't think there will be any problems by you editing these articles, or editing them without bringing it up here. Hobartimus (talk) 19:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I do think it's strange and inappropriate that someone involved in this experiment changes the naming in an article and doesn't bring it closer to the convention we agreed upon. I wouldn't bring it up if it were one isolated event, but it isn't. This move of Spiš to Szepesség was particularly inappropriate because the article is also about the current Slovak region (there was already a separate article Szepes county). Don't think I'm attacking Nmate personally (though I would like to see a bit more explanation or sources from him than "It is better"), my only interest is the progress of Wikipedia. Markussep Talk 22:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bratislava

This sentence is unfair on top of the article, because the city's Hungarian historical roots is stronger:

Bratislava was home to the Slovak national movement of the 19th century and to many Slovak, Hungarian and German historical figures.

So this sentence would be better:

Pressburg was home many of Slovak, Hungarian and German historical figures.

it is better crown jewels instead of crown jewels

This sentence is very one-sided also:

in 1783, the first newspaper in Slovak, Presspurske Nowiny (Pressburg Newspaper), and the first Slovak novel were published.

better solution:

The first newspapers were published here in Slovak, German and Hungarian languages -Presspurske Nowiny, Pressburger Zeitung and Magyar hírmondó in the 18th century in the Kingdom of Hungary.

This sentence in not so good:As a reaction to the Revolutions of 1848 in the Revolutions of 1848, Ferdinand V signed the so-called March laws (also called April laws), which included the abolition of serfdom, at the Primate's Palace.

better sentence:

As a reaction to the Revolutions of 1848, Ferdinand V signed the so-called April laws, at the Primate's Palace which included the abolition of serfdom and the basis of a today's modern Hungarian constitution.

this is a wrong sentence with an anachronistic bridge name:

The city's first permanent bridge over the Danube, Starý most (Bratislava), was built in 1891.

good sentence:

The city's first permanent bridge over the Danube, [[Starý most (Bratislava)|Frantz Joseph bridge]], was built in 1891.

furtermore some absentee but very relevant hungarian related events from the 19th century:

In 1825 István Széchenyi offers his yearly income to establish the Hungarian National Learned Society (now Hungarian Academy of Sciences) in Pressburg. Between 1843 and 1844 Hungarian language is proclaimed the official language in legislation, public administration and teaching by the Diet in Pressburg. Here formed the first responsible Hungarian Ministry in 1848 on 7th of April. On 7th October in 1848 Josip Jelačić's army threatened the city with bombing but He marched away from Hungarian army who occupied the city until 19th December. On July in 1849 Julius Jacob von Haynau set up his campaign in the city. After this Pressburg became a center of military headquarters. In 1850 railway line connected Budapest and Pressburg. The city was prosperitied by mayor Henrik Justi and banker Theodor Edl in the second half of the 19th century. During the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 They were political opponents.

Nmate (talk) 16:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

My comments, point by point:
  • Slovak national movement: it would be very strange to omit this, it was very relevant, and it was for a large part based in Bratislava/Pressburg and surroundings. This doesn't deny the importance of the city for Hungary, does it?
  • crown jewels: OK, not controversial IMO, probably collateral damage of the revert war.
  • The Presspursky Nowiny was (apparently, I don't know it) the first newspaper in the Slovak language, that's relevant. The other newspapers are mentioned in the article History of Bratislava. The German one was definitely not the first one in German, if the Hungarian one was the first in Hungarian, it's worth mentioning here.
  • I don't understand the fuss about March or April. If the 1848 law served as the basis for the present constitution of Hungary, that might be worth mentioning, but the article Politics of Hungary says that it's based on the 1949 constitution of Germany. Who's right?
  • It's quite common to use the present name for a bridge or other landmarks. A better wording may be: "The Starý most, built in 1891, was the city's first permanent bridge over the Danube."
  • Your "absentee" paragraph is rather poorly written. Let me rephrase the first part like this: "In 1825 the Hungarian National Learned Society (the present Hungarian Academy of Sciences) was founded in Pressburg using a donation from István Széchenyi. In 1843 Hungarian was proclaimed the official language in legislation, public administration and education by the Diet in Pressburg."
  • I'm not sure what to do with your "ministry" line (what does "responsible" mean here?). If it evolved from the 1848 constitution, it might be better to make it a clause of that sentence. The Jelačić/Haynau part is a bit too much for this article, and also treated in the History of Bratislava article. It suffices to refer to the 1848 revolutions. The railway line to Budapest: OK (was it Buda or Pest? they hadn't merged yet in 1850). "prosperity" is not a verb, and the mayor and the banker are not so relevant IMO, the development of Pressburg in the late 19th century is already treated. Markussep Talk 18:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

my point of view:

1, Slovak national movement: I do not want to omit it - I would like to move it from under the headline to historical context.It would be a good solution also: this sentence remain on this place but an another one very important Hungarian related event will be inserted under this headline too.

For example:

Pray codex is liked to the city - which was made between 1192 - 1195 - that is the first known coherent literary remains of the Hungarian language. The city was the capital of the Kingdom of Hungary under the Habsburg monarchy from 1536 to 1783. Pressburg was home to the Slovak national movement of the 19th century and to many Slovak, Hungarian and German historical figures.

2, Newspapers:Hungarian and Slovak are together in an sentence is O.K.because the Magyar hírmondo was the first newspaper in Hungarian language.

3, It is true both : These laws meant the transition from the feudal society into the civil society in the Kingdom of Hungary so these laws included the basis of today's modern Hungarian constitution. But it is true the German pattern also.

4, What You rewrote at Hungarian National Learned Society is O.K . A good clause will be find out with first responsible Hungarian Ministry. First responsible Hungarian Ministry means: the official name of the Batthyány government.

5, Bridge name is not so relevant for me.

6, What you wrote about revolutions of 1848 is O.K. I do not know exectly that railwayline connetion was at Pest or Buda.

Nmate (talk) 17:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

1. What do you mean with "liked to the city"? Was it written there? And does this prayer book have a specific name? "pray codex" sounds very general.
2. OK, that's relevant.
3 and 4. I don't think the constitution is relevant enough for the Bratislava article then. The parliament (Diet) can be mentioned of course. Was it permanently in Pressburg, and when was it moved to Pest?
5. OK
6. According to German wikipedia, de:k.k. Südöstliche Staatsbahn, it was Pest, connected via Vác (Waitzen).
I don't have the time to do it myself now, but I can do the changes on Monday. Markussep Talk 18:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Farewell

Dear Elonka and others, I wish you good luck with your experiment. Although this page has definitely made the environment here more civil, I believe some users are still motivated by their desire to introduce politically motivated POV. New issues are emerging and old issues are re-emerging regardless of our discussions. Instead of improving quality of Wikipedia, many edits just reflect the discourse between marginal and often extreme political views in the region. It will hardly change until the degree of political polarization in Central Europe gets reduced or Wikipedia's rules get stricter. I have decided that I do not want to spend my days arguing in never-ending fights. I have done a lot of work on Slovakia-related articles since 2005, but I could not focus on writing recently due to all those time-consuming disputes. I do not enjoy that; I enjoy the creative part of our work. Although I consider this experiment extremely valuable for the future of Wikipedia, I do not feel like spending more time and energy in the project. I may return if a new generation of editors interested in Slovakia-related topics appears. But this area of Wikipedia is now a sad place to work. Good luck with your dispute resolution. Tankred (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I share the first few lines. Until the newest declaration of retirement. Sorry for my scepticism, (it is not maliciousness), but we had several examples in the past that retiring did not necessary meant retiring at all, but only a simple attempt of manipulating others (notably "outsiders"). Anyway, bye. --Rembaoud (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Tankred, thanks for your active participation in these Slovak-Hungarian discussions. I really value your contribution. Markussep Talk 12:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)