Talk:Elizabeth of Bohemia

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Contents

[edit] Vote

For multi-proposals Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested under WP:RM
Add # followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~ - Any voter may approve one or more options.
  • Propose that the page be moved to Elizabeth Stuart or some disambig modification of that
  1. Acceptable option. Is much used of her, and satisfied the NC (=pre-marital). Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  1. Acceptable. She was born as such. Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  • Propose that the page be moved to Elizabeth of England or some disambig modification to that
  1. Acceptable. Her father is located as "of England". Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  • Propose that the page be moved to Princess Elizabeth of Scotland
  1. Acceptable. Her husband is located at #Elector Palatine", a sub-monarch. This follows NC for such, pre-marital name and title. Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  1. Acceptable. Her husband is located at #Elector Palatine", a sub-monarch. This follows NC for such, pre-marital name and title. Her father is located as "of England". Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  • Propose that the page be moved to Elizabeth the Winter Queen
  1. Acceptable, seeing that she is the only real person ever known as such, and that Winter Queen is very common appellation for her. Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  1. possible. Weak approval. Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


  1. I am willing to approve also this alternative. Arrigo 10:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
    Arrigo, why do you support this version of Elizabeth's married name as the article title, but not the more commonly used Elizabeth of Bohemia? john k 05:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
    Because we do not yet have any convention to forbid consort name for sub-king consorts. "of Bohemia" is a king's title, thus against NC, whereas Palatinate is sub-king. Her husband actually is under of Palatinate. Funny: why are certain anglocentrists making here the wife as "of Bohemia" and husband as "of Palatinate". in addition, of Bohemia is POV as endorsing a royal pretension. The point that the said pretension was favored by the English, is not sufficient reason for Wikipedia to endorse it. My vocabulary "willing to approve" is a weak support, i.e acceptable but not preferred. Arrigo 20:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
  1. Support (see below #Suggestions) --Francis Schonken 20:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  2. Strongly support See below at end of #discussion Septentrionalis 20:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  3. Support john k 00:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
  4. Support. Of all the options this one is the best option. Elizabeth of Bohemia with a 'z'. – AxSkov (☏) 06:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
    comment: should be opposed because is against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) Arrigo 10:24, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. 's' -> 'z'. Dragons flight 03:20, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vote count (10 days after start of vote)

5 people voted (Arrigo; Francis; Septentrionalis; John K; AxSkov)

4 of these people voted for the move to Elizabeth of Bohemia option, none of the other options received more than one vote.

So the vote result as of 12:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC) can be summarized:

Move Elisabeth of Bohemia to Elizabeth of Bohemia: 4 voters out of 5 = 80% > 60%.

Additionally, some people commented lower on this page without actually voting

  • Deb seems to favour "Elizabeth Stuart", including a warning not to "ride a coach and horses through the conventions just because they may not be easy to apply in one or two cases"
  • James F. supports the plan mentioned in #suggestions, which includes the move to "Elizabeth of Bohemia"

If counting these as valid votes, the vote result as of 12:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC) could be summarized:

Move Elisabeth of Bohemia to Elizabeth of Bohemia: 5 voters out of 7 = 71% > 60%.

Both methods of counting the votes lead to the same indication: no impediment for the Move operation to be completed, except, when following Deb's remark, this move would be seen as a threat to the wikipedia:naming conventions (names and titles) guideline. However, this thought seems not to have influenced the voting behaviour of those who voted for the move to "Elizabeth of Bohemia" ("exception" to the guideline)

(Vote count report provided by --Francis Schonken 07:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)) (Extending vote count report --Francis Schonken 12:39, 11 September 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Discussion

This article was moved to "Elisabeth of England". This would appear to be a controversial choice of title, and I have therefore reverted it pending discussion of suitable alternative titles in order to attempt to achieve consensus. Deb 21:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

According to naming conventions, she should be at her pre-marital name, as she is a deceased monarchical consort. Is that "of England" or "of Scotland", is relatively easy: England was the bigger, and her father has heading as king of England. So, Elisabeth of England (s instead of z as she was important in Germany) is the starting-point, where she should be unless any consensus settles her elsewhere. "of Bohemia" is (1) POV, and (2) against naming conventions. NC does not leave them in their marital titles. And it is POV as it endorses a pretension to a throne the couple held disputedly over a winter. No need to battle old Religious Wars again here in Wikipedia. NC directs her a totally another place to be. Arrigo 21:29, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't forget to put this request for a move on Wikipedia:Requested moves if you intend to go through with it. That will give others the opportunity to note the request and comment on it. Deb 21:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Not necessary when making a move to placement accorded by NC. Arrigo 22:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

It wouldn't be necessary if you were proposing to move the article to a name "accorded", as you quaintly put it, to Naming Conventions. But to use the German spelling of the forename along with "of England" would not be in clear accordance with conventions. Deb 22:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Ridiculous quibbling, Deb. Elisabeth as spelling is used also in British usage sometimes. Please do not try to cover your wrongdoing by any distraction. Arrigo 22:25, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Please keep to standard practice in future, Arrigo. If you want to move this page to a title you know to be controversial (and if you didn't know, you do now), then use the Wikipedia:Requested moves facility. Otherwise, please leave the page alone. I would also advise that you familiarise yourself with the "redirect" function, your misuse of which has caused some confusion recently. Deb 22:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Elizabeth Stuart (that of Bohemia fame) receives odd treatment: The location "of Bohemia" strikes as a less encyclopedic place and as a not neutral name for her to be. I presume instead some pre-marital name to be a NPOV place. It seems to me that persons keeping her at the consort name are same people who elsewhere are more or less forcefully enforcing the pre-marital heading rule. Afaik there has never been a discussion nor consensus that she could even be at the consort location. This incident has weakened my trust in any "rightfulness" of the rule that requires monarchical consorts to be at pre-marital namings. Also weakens any trust in persons who require this at one place and totally another principle elsewhere. When I checked google, Elizabeth Stuart seems to be perhaps the most used naming or the person in question. I found no other significant royal with the same name (no one who clearly deserves an article in encyclopedia). (Other Elizabeth Stuart whatevers, commoners, are plentifully present.) Googling showed that Elisabeth of Bohemia is quite crowded, by various individuals, AND no one is overwhelmingly pre-eminent - thus it cannot properly be anything else than a disambiguation page. Googling also aroused much suspicion whether the so-called Historical Name of consorts is at all true in works of reference, in history and encyclopedias.

Online Britannica has put her to "Elizabeth Stuart".

In naming, English Wikipedia should not reflect any Anglo-American focus. It is contrary to the neutral point of view. Especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective, such as naming of a royal who mostly lived in Germany, besides being a daughter of a British monarch, and whose "career" was a knot point between protestants and catholics. The presence of articles written from a United States or British perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and British citizens working on the project, which in turn is a reflection of the fact that so many of them are online. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration from people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers aware of them. In this naming, there is a clear need of Wikipedia:NPOV application, rather than of a cultural bias of a certain country. The pre-marital naming is the recipe presumed NPOV in this case too. I ask those who want to keep her at something "of Bohemia" to first go and try to change the NC policy regarding monarchical consorts. Arrigo 14:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


Naming is clearly directed by the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) which quite clearly states that pre-marital name is to be used.

This article could possibly be placed to at least the following locations:

Add more viable options... Arrigo 00:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Hilaire Belloc can be argued to have been anglocentric. Arrigo
    • Belloc, who served in the French army?? If he is anglocentric, what native speaker of English is not? Septentrionalis 19:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. She is always called Elizabeth of Bohemia in English usage. Literally always. Any other name would be absurd, and there's no other Elizabeth of Bohemia's which she might be confused with. The justification for the current naming policy with regards to royal consorts is that they are normally referred in English by their maiden names. I have my doubts that this is true in some cases (I have never seen Sisi referred to as "Elisabeth of Bavaria"), but I know that this is not true in this case. She is universally "Elizabeth of Bohemia." john k 15:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Actually, I just _was_ confused! I was looking for the wife of John of Luxembourg, mother of Charles VI and ended up by default on the page of a queen I had never heard of, so yes, it is possible to be misdirected. I knew there were many woman by the name Elisabeth/Elizabeth of Bohemia; I put in the most common US spelling of this name since I do not speak Czech. I expected it to automatically go to a disambiguation page; instead it defaulted to an individual whose selection seemed arbitrary to me. Oddly, the Stuart princess was not mentioned at all on the disambiguation page, so I added her. My point is, not everyone knows or cares about 17th century Stuart royalty, so please have the search for "Elizabeth of Bohemia" default to the "Disambiguation Page".
A huge number of Americans have ancestry from the European continent and are interested in researching the history of the lands their ancestors came from. Because so many have lost their ancestral languages, English Wikipedia is, by necessity, the starting point. I feel references in Wikipedia should be treated equally, regardless of one's own personal interest, attachment or ethnic background. Perhaps you aren't interested in the medieval time period or continental European history; however, that doesn't seem to be a valid reason to dismiss those who are by implying that no one else by the name Elizabeth of Bohemia rates a mention. That can be inferred as either biased or uniformed, which is counter to what I would expect in an Encyclopedia. The Scottish princess matters to you, the Bohemian princess to me. Please let's respect them both equally. Thanks.Krumhorns 08:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Then why does e.g Britannica use "Elizabeth Stuart" of her? Arrigo 15:54, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't know. But that would raise issues with her like-named niece, and isn't how she's normally called. Given that there is no native Bohemian royal family with which she might be confused, and no other Elizabeth of Bohemias of note, I don't see why we shouldn't make an exception to the normal rules in this instance. john k 15:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
      • There are other Elisabeths of Bohemia, including two queens: Elisabeth of Bohemia (disambiguation). The letter z (instead of s) probably is not sufficient distinction here. And check google: Even googling "Elizabeth of Bohemia" produces sites which mention one of the other of these women. Arrigo 16:08, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, yes. I will say that she remains the best known person of that name, though. john k 16:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps only in anglo-amerocentric view. English Wikipedia should however treat also foreign notables properly. Arrigo 16:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, there have been native Bohemian royal families floating around in mists of history, including a bunch of Elisabeths - firstly such as shown at [1] and then nextly the following [2] native Bohemian royal family which produced such native Bohemian royal princesses as Anne, Queen of England (Anne of Bohemia) who are prevalently called as "of Bohemia". Arrigo 17:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Import from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)

I noticed that the eldest daughter of James I of England happened to be located at Elizabeth of Bohemia, which strikes as a less encyclopedic place and as a not neutral name for her to be. I accordingly moved her to pre-marital place, which is presumed to be NPOV, but within minutes, she was again moved to an arguably POV and marital location. It seems to me that persons keeping her at the consort name are same people who elsewhere are more or less forcefully enforcing the pre-marital heading rule. Afaik there has never been a discussion nor consensus that she could even be at the consort location.

(Sadly, those moves also lead to deleting an old page, a dispute at Admin noticeboard/incidents, etc)

This incident has weakened my trust in any "rightfulness" of the rule that requires monarchical consorts to be at pre-marital namings. Also weakens any trust in persons who require this at one place and totally another principle elsewhere.

When I checked google, Elizabeth Stuart seems to be perhaps the most used naming or the person in question. I found no other significant royal with the same name (no one who clearly deserves an article in encyclopedia). (Other Elizabeth Stuart whatevers are plentifully present.) Googling showed that Elizabeth of Bohemia is quite crowded, by various individuals, thus it cannot properly be anything else than a disambiguation page.

Googling also aroused much suspicion whether the so-called Historical Name of consorts is at all true in works of reference, in history and encyclopedias.

But, online Britannica has put her to "Elizabeth Stuart".

According to the current naming convention, she should be at her pre-marital name, as she is a deceased monarchical consort. Whether that is "of England" or "of Scotland", seems relatively easy: England was the bigger, and her father has heading as king of England. "of Bohemia" is (1) POV, and (2) against naming conventions. NC does not leave them in their marital titles. And it is POV as it endorses a pretension to a throne that monarchical couple held disputedly over one winter. No need to battle old Religious Wars again here in Wikipedia.

In naming, English Wikipedia should not reflect any Anglo-American focus. It is contrary to the neutral point of view. Especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective, such as naming of a royal who mostly lived in Germany, besides being a daughter of a British monarch, and whose "career" was a knot point between protestants and catholics. The presence of articles written from a United States or British perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and British citizens working on the project, which in turn is a reflection of the fact that so many of them are online. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration from people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers aware of them. In this naming, there is a clear need of Wikipedia:NPOV application, rather than of a cultural bias of a certain country.

Should we change the consort naming in NC, or is its recipe presumed to be NPOV in this case too? Arrigo 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Arrigo has correctly iodentified a weakness with present policy, which works well for the consorts of England (and France), but in the case of Elizabeth of Bohemia, Catherine the Great and others imposes a name flat contrary to uniform and consensus English usage. In fact, the traditional treatment of the Queens of England, which distinguishes Anne of Bohemia from Anne of Cleves by premarital nationality, is a form of disambiguation: by foreign assoication.
When I have a proposal on how to state this clearly, I will make it; but Elizabeth of Bohemia, Catharine of Russia, Victoria of Prussia (for the Empress Frederick) are instances of the same principle.
I find the claim that Elizabeth of Bohemia is PoV very odd. It is used even by Catholic apologists; and it need not imply that she had a right to the Crown of Bohemia; merely that she claimed it, which is neutral history. Septentrionalis 15:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean that the whole rule of "pre-marital naming" is just an anglocentric POV?? Arrigo 16:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Anglocentric is a PoV term, and a form of begging the question. Would Arrigo care to rephrase, please? Septentrionalis 19:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I expanded Elizabeth Stuart (disambiguation) a bit. Technically Elizabeth Stuart which is now a redirect to that disambig page, could also be made a redirect to the "Elis/zabeth of Bohemia" page. Whether that would be wise is something else. I'm a bit surprised the winter queen is at "Elisabeth of Bohemia" (which is the version of the name shared with some bohemian princesses, see Elisabeth of Bohemia (disambiguation)) and not at Elizabeth of Bohemia, now a redirect page? The z variant being the content page would appear more compatible with her English pedigree, and the "of Bohemia" part of the title being in English too...
There are still double redirects on the z variant floating around, indicating there were already previous uncautious page moves.
Would anyone have a problem with switching content of the s and the z variant, which is probably the easiest way to solve these double redirects?
Further, the s variant page is linked from "Lamest edit wars ever" page. So, maybe Arrigo tell us somewhat more about the pre-history? --Francis Schonken 17:17, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
You'll find the relevant discussion at User talk:Arrigo under "User:Deb abused admin powers, by deleting a page without AfD" and that should explain how the problem occurred. Deb 17:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions are not hard-and-fast rules, they are set for guidance, and are particularly useful when there are several possible alternatives for an article title, as in this case. The guidance is that we should use the maiden name, and I agree with that -- though it might be argued that, given Elizabeth's exceedingly short tenure of the title, she should be treated differently. Personally I would favour Elizabeth Stuart, as it is a name by which she is known and which would require less disambiguation than Elizabeth of Bohemia. We need to look at all aspects of the question, and take the guidelines into account, before taking a decision on the best title. What we should not do is to try to ride a coach and horses through the conventions just because they may not be easy to apply in one or two cases, eg. Alix of Hesse. Deb 17:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I was trying to avoid mentioning that absurdity. Septentrionalis 19:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

A few points: 1) both Elizabeth Stuart and Elizabeth of Bohemia require disambiguation. However, in both cases this Elizabeth is the most famous to be known by that name, so a disambiguation notice at the top should be sufficient. 2) Although she was only the de facto Queen of Bohemia for a brief period of time, she is generally known in English literature as "Elizabeth of Bohemia" for the remainder of her fairly long life. I think that "Elizabeth of Bohemia" with no context, would generally be taken to refer to this Elizabeth (although of course not necessarily - Elizabeth's likenamed daughter is often called Elizabeth of Bohemia, as are the previous queens of that name, and probably some others). "Elizabeth Stuart" is a much more ambiguous name. If I saw that, I would probably think of this Elizabeth, but not necessarily. I'd like to add that Catherine the Great is not the same situation at all. She was a reigning monarch, and a reigning monarch who was also a consort gets named like any other reigning monarch. john k 19:53, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Further,
Note that both Elizabeth Stuart (disambiguation) and Elisabeth of Bohemia (disambiguation) exist.
-> And just added Winter Queen (disambiguation) too --Francis Schonken 20:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

All in all I would suggest following moves/changes:
  1. Content of Elisabeth of Bohemia to be moved to Elizabeth of Bohemia (+ cleanup of remaining double redirects)
  2. Elisabeth of Bohemia redirect to Elisabeth of Bohemia (disambiguation)
  3. Elizabeth Stuart redirect to Elizabeth of Bohemia ("disambig sentence" before intro referring to Elizabeth Stuart (disambiguation) already provided)
  4. Winter Queen and Winter queen redirects to Elizabeth of Bohemia
Please comment if these steps don't seem reasonable...
--Francis Schonken 20:05, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be better to have Elizabeth Stuart as the dab page, but otherwise agree. Septentrionalis 20:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Good bye to convoluted plans at this stage. The supports to various alyternatives is not yet clear. Let's first see what happens at that stage. 217.140.193.123 21:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that this plan sounds sensible.
James F. (talk) 10:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Agree with the general apporach but retitle the "home page" Elizabeth, Electress Palatine and then just have the reference to the titel Elizabeth of Bohemia in the first paragraph of the article? --Andrew L 22:19, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template Change

I created and inserted a new template which shows the House of Stuart's connection to the House of Hanover. It ain't the prettiest template in the world, but then it is the first one I have ever created.--*Kat* 19:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Not bad at all. Good job :) Prsgoddess187 20:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Place of birth?

Where was she born. Can we source any details of her early life? Ta. --Mais oui! 15:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The article states that she was born at Falkland Palace, Fife. john k 21:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the historian David Harris Willson, she was born at Dunfermline (presumably Dunfermline Palace), so the article should be changed. See D.H. Willson, King James VI and I, published by Jonathan Cape, London, 1956, p.120. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.80.52 (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was revert the move and return the page to Elizabeth of Bohemia, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that this page has been unilaterally moved from Elizabeth of Bohemia, without discussion. The arguments for that, here and at WP:NCNT, still seem good to me; so I recommend that we move this back, and the dab page to Elisabeth of Bohemia (disambiguation). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

  • Support as nom. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose We should use 1) the most comon name 2) the maiden name with queen-consorts. "Elisabeth of Bohemia" is not established and misleading. She is after all from the House of Stuart, not princess of Bohemia. Gryffindor 17:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
    This is correct on principle, and wrong about the facts.
    • That Elizabeth of Bohemia is the most common name in English for this princess may be seen from the bibliography.
    • The history of this talkpage shows that it has always been at Elizabeth/Elisabeth of Bohemia; Dragonflight moved it between the spellings as a result of the discussion in September 2005.
    • Gryffindor moved it unilaterally on 17 May, this year, without discussion, deleting the redirect, and abusing his admin powers. I recommend that his !vote be struck. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support One can't even recognize "Elizabeth Stuart" as a page about a royal. Beorhtric 13:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Comment: I don't think it's a big deal, since the redirects will get the readers to her easily enough, and both names are equally common, though "Elizabeth of Bohemia" seems to me slightly unencyclopedic because it doesn't fit readily into lists, categories, etc. Here are some comparable cases:

I think we have to use common sense, rather than any notion of what is "right" (perhaps the most "right" for Elizabeth would be "Elizabeth of England", which of course would be the most unhelpful). qp10qp 15:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

English usage is inconsistent; Wikipedia's "maiden name convention" is even less consistent. But here English usage, as evidenced above and by the books in the article bibliography, is fairly clear. (What I'm jumping up and down about is that it was done unilaterally, by an admin who has done other partisan moves, on the grounds that our customs require Elizabeth Stuart, which they clearly don't.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that unilateral moves in cases like this are very disruptive. They cause a rippling effect round many articles, because most of us, when editing articles (I have recently worked on the articles for both Elizabeth's parents) try to use the forms found in article names, whether we agree with them or not; and sudden name moves screw up the wikilinks (even if the redirect kicks in, the reader might feel that the name in the article must have been inaccurate). qp10qp 15:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Comparable article name

When I was compiling the list of varied styles above, I was unable (though I came very close) to find an article title precisely equivalent to "Elizabeth of Bohemia". But, wehey, I have now: Marguerite de Navarre. Marguerite was from the house of Angouleme and her brother was Valois king of France. She was queen consort of Navarre, just as Elizabeth was queen consort of Bohemia. qp10qp 16:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)