Talk:Elisa Carrió

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[edit] Freedom of speech

Freedom of speech is one of our civil rights, clearly stated in the US Constitution. By censoring my contribution on the artible about Elisa Carrio you are violating one of my civil rights and as such you are placing Wikipedia at great peril. I was posting the opinion of a friend from Argentina since she is scared she might be persecuted if she does that from her own country, she might be overseas but i am in california and i take seriously my constitutional rights. I strongly recommend you refrain from censoring the articles posted here based on your convenience or personal opinion. This crime carries a serious punishment in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.143.105 (talk • contribs)

First of all, Wikipedia is not a blog where you can leave your oppinion on a subject; it's an encyclopedia.
Second, a biography of a living person must comply with some rules:
  1. Statements must be verifiable, that is, sources must be provided.
  2. Wikipedia does not accept original researchs such as yours.
  3. Articles must have a neutral point of view only.
I reverted your edits because:
  1. You removed valid text from this page (Header templates)
  2. Gave content in another language.
  3. That content attacked the figure of a living person, without any sources for what was said, rendering the text into an unacceptable original research
I hope there was no threatening intended with the serious punishment part; personal attacks are considered vandalism in Wikipedia.
If you have more doubts, please read the Wikipedia's help
--Mariano(t/c) 15:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

by preventing me from saying something you have violated my civil rights. you also threaten me with your statements, if i try to remind you of the law you say i am menacing? What country you are? here in the US civil rights are a serious matter, if i have to read that link you have to read the US constitution. You can't discriminate people based on the laguage they speak, let me remind you you have to find a translator, antidiscrimination act. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.143.105 (talk • contribs)

Please, stop erasing this page. Your civil right might grant you free of speech, but not just anywhere you like; I can't write a graphity at your house's front just because I have something to say. Wikipedia has its rules, and if you don't like them I suggest you try a blog or something similar. Additionally, please avoid doing legal threats, they are not appreciated here. Again, please don't remove the content of this page. --Mariano(t/c) 22:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for deleting my answer to this atrocious statement above, my civil rights apply EVERYWHERE, ANYWHERE, and you just can't destroy my property by painting graffiti on it, that is also trespassing. Perhaps you think you are some cruzader that has the property on wikipedia. Your discriminatory acts need some revision, if you can understand it is your duty to find a translator or the place you work for has to provide that. Bill of rights, read it. This is the first time in my life that the US Constitution is considered a threat, i am sure you are not serious about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.129.18 (talk • contribs)

You seam not to understand that Wikipedia has its rules, and you cannot ignore them. Doing so is like destroying Wikipedia's property. Besides, you continiously erased the header of this talk page, when I asked you several times not to do so. Accusations without proves is also a crime, in every country. Are you ready to provide references to your claims? Wikipedia tries to be an encyclopedia; this is not the place to make political accusations; it's as simple as that. I suggest you open a blog or something similar. --Mariano(t/c) 13:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accusations

I came across the book "Nunca Mas" by the CONADEP, an updated version. During the time Carrio was employed by the State of Chaco as a Prosecutor the Massacre of Margarita Belen and many dissapearances took place. There is no record in that accredited book of Carrio sponsoring any Habeas Corpus in favor of those "desaparecidos". It is also evident after reading that book that nobody could have obtained a job in that province without the OK of Captain Brinzoni who is personally responsible for the massacre. I wonder how Carrio made it to it and if anybody can provide an explanation. In that book there not a quote of carrio saying anything those days for the missing or their families. Her party is now trying to null the presidential pardons that benefit the terrorists from both parties those days, and act of courage perhaps too many years too late. Carrio is a good politician for Hollywood, she will always bark in front of cameras but will not even attend all sessions of the parliament. Her statements are sometimes quite unfounded and no judge has considered her allegations seriously and no prosecution started. Her political carrier is coming to an end finally since she is quite unable to find allies that would like to join her in the coming campaign and a replacement will soon show up in the Argentine political life. My discussion on carrio has been erased by Cruzaders many times in clear violation of my civil rights. I think this totalitarian behaviour is just an expression of intolerance and also an indication of how much carrio wants to hide from her past. The President in one of his recent speeches clearly stated that Carrio should start with an analysis of her past errors. I have to say i have no connection with Mr. Kirchner but perhaps he reads my discussions on wikipedia. No copyright laws apply here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.129.18 (talk • contribs)

You accusations, both to Carrio and the Wikipedia, have absolutelly no fundaments. If you wish to contacts Kirchner do so directly, Wikipedia is not a message board, nor the place to make accusations against politicians. --Mariano(t/c) 13:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the book "Nunca Mas" deserves no respect from you, i would appreciate if you can provide some sources instead of your baseless personal statements. Please, don't erase parts of my message at your will anymore. President Kirchner stated that carrio should check on her own past mistakes, i think the president of argentina is also a good source. I think you are using Wikipedia for your own political purposes instead of writing the truth.


I didn't know i was erasing the heading of this article, i am new to wikipedia and i want to apologize for that. I have provided my sources, those are the "diaries of the trial of the juntas" version in spanish, this is not very accurate since i had to ask for help with the translation. "Nunca Mas", by Conadep, i got the updated version from Amazon.com recently, in English. The speech by President Kirchner (not sure about spelling) when he states his opinion on Carrio is on the internet, available at the homepage of the Goverment of Argentina. There is also a book i used for my researh and that is "A lexicon of Terror", describes Margarita Belen and many other instances that took place during Carrio's interregno as Deputy District Attorney for the State of Chaco. There is no recolection there of her actions regarding this massacre. The book is well documented i think. Now you can't say my statements are baseless. I will certainly appreciate if you prove me wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.206.180.74 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 9 May 2007.

Just one thing. Are you the same user above, who edited under IP 75.6.129.18? (both that IP and the one you're using now point to the same ISP). It's confusing to keep track of who said what. If you want to contribute regularly to Wikipedia, especially major contributions, you should sign up to get a username; in any case, please sign and date your comments in talk pages by using ~~~~.
Now, most of what is said above is slander and subjective opinion about Carrió's style ("a good politician for Hollywood", "totalitarian", etc.), which has no place here. As for the rest, you need to cite it properly. The more strong and controversial a claim, the better and more precisely it needs to be cited. If it's a fact, that's enough; if it's someone's personal opinion (for example, president Kirchner's) that should be made clear. In the case of Kirchner, very clear — since Kirchner is in the government, Carrió is part of the opposition, and neither are subtle nor diplomatic when attacking the other. Last thing, about the dictatorship: there were thousands of people in power who did not do everything they could (or anything at all) against the dictatorial rule or in favour of the desaparecidos. Speculating about Carrió's lack of action in this case and concluding that she somehow supported the dictatorship is something a historian or a very good journalist must do (and then we can quote his or her conclusions here); if you do it, that's original research and it's not allowed.
We're not fighting to defend anyone or anything here. Get that out of your head, cool off, and get those citations. You might want to read some other articles about controversial characters, so you can see how it's done. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 20:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen, the mentioning of the President of Argentina is a good source, he represents the people of Argentina and his speeches are available at the Website of the goverment, i don't know how to enter links here. As per the book Nunca Mas i thought it was something everybody in Argentina has read, or should have read. I agree that many Argentines did nothing those days, some of them didn't know, some of them didn't want to know, but Carrio who did nothing those days and was apparently working for the Proceso in full compliance now tries to show her contempt for those days and she should not do that cause she was-is a colaborator. President Kirchner was one of the missing ones, and he perfectly knows what he is talking about. You can find his name in the list of political prisoners those days. Her style of denunciation is quite controversial in Argentina, she has denounced cases of corruption but i can't find any cites regarding cases that were brought to trial or even investigated. Her statements are empty and no judge dare consider them serious. This makes her a Hollywood politician. The book Lexicon of Terror i mentioned is available in Amazon.com and i recommend you to read that. THere is no mention of Carrio at all in her persuit of the truth, not even in the democratic times. If i provide the sources you treat me like a liar, if i don't you do the same. I believe you are just not open to criticism and you must be working for her political campaign. It is clear to everybody she supported the Process, how otherwise she remained as Deputy Distric attorney till 1983? At least now you are not erasing my contributions. I do recommend the reading of Nunca Mas and the Diaries of the Trial of the Juntas. I will also appreciate if you unblock the page in spanish who was blocked illegally, i need to write this in that page if you help with the translation. Please don't do like they did to my friend in Argentina tracking her with the IP address and finally went for them to the Internet Cafe in La Matanza, don't do that in US territory. This IP address is used by me and other people mainly from Mexico and also Argentina but i am the only American Citizen protected by the bill of rights. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.206.180.74 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 9 May 2007.

I can't believe I have to say explicitly that I'm not working for Carrió. But there. Again, please please sign and date your comments, and consider getting a username. Also, new comments go at the bottom of the page, as in replying to the previous one. I've moved your last comment myself.
You won't get anywhere launching accusations. Wikipedia is not a haven for freedom of expression. Nobody questions your right to denounce Carrió, but if you do it here and you don't provide appropriate citations, we the other editors have the right to delete those denunciations, as they can be considered libellous and thus damage Wikipedia. In cases of grave accusations, you need to quote directly from sources, without editorializing, and saying exactly where you got it from — author, book, chapter, page, and date of publication.
Please read up on what Wikipedia is about and how it works. Spanish Wikipedia is not the same project as English Wikipedia, its editors are different (though many people work on both), and its rules are also not the same.
Tracking your IP is both within my rights and extremely easy (I used ARIN's WHOIS). If you'd acquired a username (which is quick and free and doesn't even require to provide an email address), your IP would be invisible to everyone. By the way, many people believe that anonymous users (of whom we see only their IPs) should not be allowed to edit Wikipedia at all, because most of the vandalism and other stuff (such as misguided denunciations of politicians) come from anonymous editors.
This is the last time I'm spending my time to explain what you should already know. If you continue to throw slanderous comments at the subject of this article without a proper source and attribution, those comments will be deleted as per WP:BLP, and you may eventually be blocked from editing. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about your time, i don't care about you. I provided plenty of sources: Nunca Mas by Conadep, A lexicon of Terror, Argentina and legacies of Torture by Marguerite Feitlowitz, Nestor Kirschner, President of Argentina, Goverment of Argentina Homepage. You can track the IP address of this and the other computers, they are all located in the State of California and as such protected by the laws of privacy and freedom of expresion of this, our wonderful country. A different story is if apart from tracking it you do something else. Then i will have to use Torpak. I hope my citations are accepted by the great inquisitors, you can erase my answer but don't edit the original discussion. It appears to me you think you are like the owner of wikipedia. FYI some schools and colleges in the golden state recommend not to use wikipedia as a source of "reliable" information. Good luck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.151.28 (talk • contribs)

You don't understand that by sayin Kirchner said this and that you are actually citating nothing. Do you have the link to an newspaper article about Kirchner saying that? Can you provide an article of any respectable journalist doing the kind of hypothesis that you so strongly support?
If you fail to do so, Wikipedia cannot hold unsupported accusations to a public figure.
Good luck, --Mariano(t/c) 12:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

When we cite president bush we cite the president of the United States. Refrain from calling the president of a foreign country "nothing". I referred you to the official site of the Goverment of Argentina. I provided with enough references and won't tolerate the edition of my discussion. If you can't find the website of the president in Argentina try to google. The other two books are available in amazon.com. If you continue to behave like the great inquisitor instead of doing some research i think i am wasting my time. I am trying to provide a discussion not to convince you or educate you. You can remove the other comments but do not remove the main discussion. I don't think the author of the bio provides the sources, the bio is just comentary, there is no reference in the bio, no nothing. I don't know why you are trying to censor this discussion and did nothing with the original article. Do you know how that one was written? i think you should concentrate on the veracity of the bio and stop trying to show me how powerful you are. I am not scared.

You continue doing a personal thing out of this. What are you supposed to mean with comments such as I am not scared?? Why do you consider I'm against you??? And I took special care in not removing your comments on this discussion.
Please, read carefully what I write to you, because you keep misinterpretating what I'm telling you: I'm not saying that something said by Kirchner means nothing, I'm telling you that you gave no valid quote on him actually saying what you claim he said. And no, biographies are not comentary. You have also ignored all the Wikipedia guides I've asked you to read.
If you would like a thrid person's oppinion, see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies.
--Mariano(t/c) 18:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are just some carrio follower, cause your speech resembles hers quite closely.

I think i am done with the discussion here, i have provided all references and i confess i had to read that "lexicon of terror" in one week cause i wanted to provide a source and not just the material coming from abroad. I recommend that book. President Kirchner's speeches are available online, Lexicon of terror is not but you can buy it at amazon.com. The CONADEP has a site available online if you'd like to do your own research and verify the veracity of the statements. I have trouble with the site in Spanish, i am trying to put there comments from people in Argentina that are really scared about writing that themselves and the site has been blocked. I know the two sites are independent but there they erased the comentaries unlike the site in the US. I didn't realize i was erasing the heading on this site but appreciate the comentary was kept untouched. No more contributions here. Do something with the site in spanish please. The references are valid, how come you can post a profile without references and when you comment on it they ask for references. Unfair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.206.180.74 (talk • contribs)

If Kirchner's speaches are online, why can't you provide a link to the one you refer to? Besides, you are doing an inference from the data you claim to be true that would also be an original research, which are not allowed in Wikipedia. --Mariano(t/c) 13:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to put links here. Also, you do your own research, you the wikipedia censor, before opining you have to double check. I think you should find another job. I don't think my data is reliable, it is the opinion of the Conadep that it is clear to me you ignore, as i am sure many other things. I am tired of the censors in Wikipedia, acting like if you were the owners of the site and the owners of the truth. You just offend, you don't discuss. I think you need to read some of the Martin Luther King work and change that looking over my nose attitude.

The site in spanish was blocked again, probably by carrio's followers, they even selected the part of my discussion that was suitable to their taste. That is just unbelievable. Can you do something about it? They are blocking every computer i use, actually i think every computer in the state of california is blocked. We tried one in vermont and it worked, but was blocked later.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.125.6.116 (talk • contribs)

Perhaps it's time to thing about the possibility that it might be you the one that's wrong, and not the whole world... --Mariano(t/c) 13:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
No, i am thinking that Carrio might be paying you good money to protect her site.

Your arrogant answer is very proper of a censor with little brains. Every school and college in the state of california recommends not to use Wikipedia as a source of information. Your cheap attack was unnecessary. I don't know who you are and you don't know me. Treating me like if derranged makes you look pitiful. I have to agree with the school system in california.

[edit] Anonymous editor blocked

I've blocked the anonymous user above, leaving a note as appropriate. It's my understanding that this no longer merits a discussion, as said user refuses to cooperate and instead tries to force his or her bias into the article, insulting those who watch this page and making outlandish accusations. My view is that any IP editor that exhibits the same disruptive pattern should be considered a block-evading sockpuppet of the above and punished accordingly. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 18:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Then, is anybody ready to explain to me what carrio did regarding margarita belen and the hundreds of dissapeared from the province of el chaco when she was working for the courts there? She was granted professorship at the age of 30, something people can achieve after extensive work and when they are probably in their 60s. Any explanations or sources for that? Does anybody know or can provide a link regarding the alledged charges against other people carrio has made if they ever got to trial or anything like that? I am doing some research myself and can't find anything on those topics.