Talk:Eli Whitney Students Program

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[edit] Eli Whitney Students Program

Note: the following discussion was copied over from an entry started on my talk page Dbiel (Talk) 20:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: "A select number of students IS accepted each year and admissions is highly competitive." (Article: Eli Whitney Students Progam)

Here, the subject of the verb is "a select number," which is singular; being that the subject is singular, so too the number of the verb (to be); thus "is" rather than "are." However, if the subject of the sentence were students--e.g. "few students"--then you would have a plural number in the verb, "are" rather than "is." I hope this explains why I have undone your edits to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.143.49 (talk • contribs)

{{helpme}}

Would like to the the POV from someone else with Wikipedia experience regarding the preceeding issue of is vs are. The OP definately does not understand Wikipedia as indicated by his posting of this entry at the top of this page (I have since moved it and titled it)But may be right in the case of the word choice even though it sounds very wrong to me.
The article is Eli Whitney Students Program and the entire sentence reads:
A select number of students is accepted each year and admissions is highly competitive.
I await your assistance, thank you in advance. Dbiel (Talk) 08:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've left the template:helpme in case someone else wants to pitch in.
I'd definitely say are as it is the students that are being accepted (and are select) rather than just the number of students. That is, I'm assuming they are not spending lots of time deciding a number then picking that number of people off the street. When used in this sense the word number is acting as a special part of speech (in the same way that an actual number like a hundred students would) that I've forgotten the name of (see if it is on WP somewhere). For a similar example, I would (and I think others would) say My other pair of socks are in the wash not My other pair of socks is in the wash.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 09:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a quantifier functionally acting as determiner BTW, but WP seems to be weak on how these should be used, so I'll check a book to get you a definite answer...
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley talk contrib 09:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
In British English, are is correct.[1] In American English, it also seems very much prevalent, even if is not completely incorrect there.[2] --rimshotstalk 14:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with those who state that are is correct. One would not say "A number is accepted each year" unless referring to the acceptance of a certain integer, not a group of students. For the sake of the article, how about simply changing it to something like, "Few students are accepted each year..." Hoof Hearted 15:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Based on the preceeding discussion I would recommend the following edit to the article which currently reads as:

A select number of students is accepted each year and admissions is highly competitive.

to the following:

The admissions process has become highly competive due the relatively large number of applications compared to the limited number of students that are actually accepted into the program.

I am going to hold off on making the edit incase someone has a better suggestion. Thanks to those who have help out in this discussion Dbiel (Talk) 20:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I did not expect this item to generate such keen interest, which I regard as a good thing. We should care about grammar. The basic grammatical issue under consideration is agreement betweent subject and verb. The subject is "a select number" (the simple subject is "number"), which is singular. The verb must also be singular in order to agree with its subject. So we use IS instead of ARE. It doesn't matter that the "number" is modified by the prepositional phrase "of students." Now if the subject had been "select numbers," then I would have to agree that ARE is correct. To my ears, too, this sounds incorrect because we are habituated to grammatical rules being ignored in speech (and writing). But spoken English probably deserves to be given a slide; otherwise people would feel straight-jacketed. I'm curious, what is the cause of your interest in the Eli Whitney Students Program? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.221.27 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually my interest in not in the article itself but simply in Wikipedia in general. Currently working on categorizing Education articles into their proper sub-category (which is why this article came to my attention) and trying to improve those that seem to make sense to me; as well as trying to learn more in the process. Dbiel (Talk) 21:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
This has actually become more of an English lesson than anything else, but as such it is benificial to Wikipedia. So just to rehash to discussion; the real question is what is the actual nown of the sentence. The verb phrase "is/are accepted each year" but what is being accepted, students or "A select number". My POV was that the core sentence is "Students are accepted". The other POV would be "A select number is accepted". Anyway, at this point, as far as the article goes, I will accept it either way. Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion. Dbiel (Talk) 23:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Since the subject is "number," which is singular, the verb must agree; thus the verb must also be singular (i.e., "is"). "[S]tudents" is not the subject but part of the prepositional phrase, which merely modifies "number." I vote for leaving it as "is." Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.221.27 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
If that is truely the case, then maybe the sentence needs to be reworded completely as I doubt that the exact number of students being accepted has any bearing on the program but rather that the total number of students being accepted is limited with the exact number simply being the result of the actual count of individual students that were accepted which makes the acceptance process very competetive. Dbiel (Talk) 14:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)