Talk:Elder Futhark
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[edit] Meaning of runes
A friend of mine suggested this page, http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/meanings.html, with lengthier descriptions of what the runes mean. I am not sure if this is authentic or new age, but it may be useful to incorporate that information. Radiant_* 11:35, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- it's purely new age. That wouldn't speak against inclusion (although a specialized article on Runic divination may be warranted), but unfortunately, the page you link doesn't give a single reference. Of course we would need to cite whose divination system gives the "meanings" mentioned on the page. The authors mentioned in this article are Ralph Blumand Edred Thorsson, and if you get hold of their books, you could give an overview of their systems. dab (ᛏ) 12:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Fuck the Unicode...
It would be really nice to have runes in one big pic, instead of getting tens of stupid squares.
- f*ck your browser, then
[edit] inscription articles
seeing that Category:Runic inscriptions is getting a little bit out of hand, what about merging articles on inscriptions into larger categories, like Elder Futhark rune stones, Younger Futhark rune stones (with only the most notable examples keeping separate articles). If other material accumulates, we could also go for Runic bracteate inscriptions and Runic fibulae inscriptions or similar. dab (ᛏ) 13:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Carpathes
I'm not quite sure, but i think that mentioned Carpathes are Carpathian Mountains. Can somebody proof this issue and if necessary - correct this link? Visor 23:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unicode vs images in recent edits
Recent edits have replaced Unicode characters with images, but only in the Elder Futhark section of this one article. Most other runic articles use either Unicode characters (typically with images in a sidebar), or Unicode characters wrapped in a {unicode} template.
Doing this three different ways is probably suboptimal. :-/ On the other hand, manually converting all the other runes on Wikipedia to images would be a fairly large effort. (Also, the current image syntax is fairly verbose--we could certainly come up with something more terse.)
Is there some way we could get the Unicode->image conversion to be performed by the Wiki software? Or is the current policy of using Unicode (nearly) everywhere fine as it is? emk 12:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Harja
Does Harja really mean warrior ? In Modern Finnish language harja means comb. And since the inscription harja is written to comb I must conclude that harja means comb, not warrior.
Modern Finnish would be different from Old Finnish, and Old Finnish was not written in runes. Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language. -LC
There is very strong proto-germanic component in finnish language. There also is strong non-IE component in proto-germanic, which I'm not arguing is from finnish. -Me
- no need to invoke Finnish. I confesse I had the same thought before: there is a West Germanic *hārja- "of hair" (obsolete English haire "cloth"). The Germanic for "hair" would be hærom. harja could be a perfectly regular Germanic word meaning "pertaining to the hair". I am sure that if you'd dig into the literature, you'll find a discussion of this (people have discussed every possible interpretation of these inscriptions over the decades), but for some reason it does not seem to have made it into mainstream opinion. dab (𒁳) 13:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
strike that last bit, a translation "comb" is indeed a valid alternative interpretation: [1], suggested by:
- Kabell, Aage. Harja, Zeitschrift für deutsches Altertum und deutsche Literatur, 102, 1973, 1-15. 1973
- Seebold, Elmar. 'Die sprachliche Deutung und Einordnung der archaischen Runeninschriften' In: Runische Schriftkultur in kontinental-skandinavischer und -angelsächsischer Wechselbeziehung. Internationales Symposium in der Werner-Reimers-Stiftung vom 24.-27. Juni 1992 in Bad Homburg, (hg.) Düwel, Klaus. Berlin, New York 1994 (=Ergänzungsbände zum Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, 10), 56-94.
dab (𒁳) 13:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New guy with a question, no biting please...
I noticed that when I loaded this article that the pictures appeared to be covering some of the text in the Origins section. I was using Firefox 2.0.0.1, and I immediately tried opening the same page using an add-on to FF that lets you use the IE rendering engine, and that cleared the problem immediately. Question: Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon here or elsewhere on WP (I have...) and is not CSS designed and intended to preclude this very thing? Is it possible that some obscure FF setting in my own browser is allowing the text to be covered by the image? And is this even the correct forum for these questions, as they are not subject related, this is merely where I noticed the problem and decided to ask questions... Sorry if these should be elsewhere, and thanks in advance for any help proffered.Radiooperator 23:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- I am using Firefox, and I've seen similar effects, although not in this article. I think you should best enquire at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) where you'll be most likely to get a competent response. dab (𒁳) 09:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Possible Misprint
I noticed under the "alphabet" section that the character listed elsewhere in the article as a translated "z" is listed as a capital "R". This is inconsistant, but I am not very knowledgable on this subject, so I won't change it. Thanks for any help! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.237.195.219 (talk) 05:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC).
- yes, this can be confusing. we should edit the article for consistency. The point is that it is transcribed z in Elder Futhark, but R in Younger Futhark. dab (𒁳) 09:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sowilo
I've noticed that the picture of the sowilo character has four lines, however I've noticed that in other sources the rune is much more commonly displayed with only three lines (like an s from the english alphabet without curves). But I'm a rookie, I might just be babbling. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.77.12.103 (talk) 23:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC).
- The four-stroke variant is plausibly an older variant, in the older sources it's apparently more common. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern (Wiccan/neopagan) Interpretation
I've noticed that this article doesn't deal with the more modern (I don't think that these meanings are original uses) symbolic and divinatory uses of the runes. I don't feel capable enough to add this on to the article but I think that it is a very important aspect of the runes seeing as that is probably their most common use today (beyond translating ancient text).
- We already have an article about runic divination if that's what you're asking. Add such infomation to that article, not the articless dealing with historical usage. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Correspondence table
I created a Runic table at User:Wakuran/Runic_Table with some of the more striking correspondences between the Elder Futhark and the Greek and Latin alphabets. I wonder if it could be useful, or if it's too unwieldy for the article. Probably some of the more probable alternate variants of Etruscan, Western Greek and Old Italic alphabets should be added, as well, if someone has images for these letter variants. Please give comments. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 11:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] bracteates
"There are some 350 known Elder Futhark inscriptions (Fischer 2004:281). Lüthi (2004:321) identifies a total of approx. 81 known inscriptions from the South (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) and approx. 267 from Scandinavia. The precise numbers are debatable because of some suspected forgeries, and some disputed inscriptions (identification as "runes" vs. accidental scratches, simple ornaments or Latin letters). 133 Scandinavian inscriptions are on bracteates (compared to 2 from the South)"
These numbers are outdated. Visit this interesting page (University Of Kiel, Germany), please: http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/default_eng.asp (Engish language) Under "List of instcriptions", "Open list of inscriptions" is a list of all runes found in Europe. In this list alone are 10 bracteates found in Germany, other countries south of Scandinavia not included. Also it maybe would be better to list bracteates based on countries, not just as found in Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. For example: 129 bracteates were found in Scandinavia. But 82 out of them alone in Denmark, Norway 10 and Sweden 37. These numbers makes bracteates mainly a Danish phenomenon, not an Scandinavian.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.132.23.116 (talk • contribs)
- It is very questionable to say that bracteates are "mainly a Danish phenomenon, not a Scandinavian" at a time when there were no "Danes", but only a tribe carrying an early form of the name which lived in Skåne (nowadays in Sweden) and Zealand. With the same questionable local patriotic logic, runes are "mainly a Swedish phenomenon, not a Scandinavian".--Berig 10:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- "It is very questionable to say that bracteates are "mainly a Danish phenomenon, not a Scandinavian" at a time when there were no "Danes", but only a tribe carrying an early form of the name which lived in Skåne (nowadays in Sweden) and Zealand"
- Yes, you are right. The borders were not there in the past. The source of the germanic tribes are assumed around Jutland, Denmark/Germany. Also the oldest runic artefacts were found there (comb of Vimose, Denmark about 160, or maybe the even older Meldorf fibula, Germany between 50 - 100.
- "With the same questionable local patriotic logic, runes are "mainly a Swedish phenomenon, not a Scandinavian""
- No, my intention is not local patriotism. And as you said, it is questionable to generalize or using new terms for this early time. So why do so? Why compare Scandinavia in a whole and the rest of Europe? Quote: "133 Scandinavian inscriptions are on bracteates (compared to 2 from the South), and 65 are on rune stones (no Southern example is extant). Southern inscriptions are predominantly on fibulae (43, compared to 15 in Scandinavia)"
- yes, I suppose it would be fair to say that bracteates with runic instciptions are centered around Jutland. Obviously, "Denmark" here is supposed to mean simply "the territory of what is now Denmark". dab (𒁳) 23:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Spearhead of kovel.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] J rune?
According to the picture on the right, the J rune is written one way, but when you read futher down, it's writen another way. So which way is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.38.47 (talk) 21:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
.jpg/180px-Antler_comb_from_Vimose,_Funen,_Denmark_(DR_207).jpg)
...- I've removed the offending image as it was pointless considering we have two other areas where we graphically explain the alphabet elsewhere on the article. As for the direction of the rune, as you can see on the Vimose Comb to the left, it matches up with what we now have in the article. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
