Talk:Elazar Shach

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Contents

[edit] Chabad 2007

How nice of you all to join us. There seems to be a flurry of editing on the page yet again. Shall we attempt to use the discussion page to talk about this yet again? ShalomShlomo 22:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to the Shach?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbatai_ha-Kohen --This is the link to the Shach, a rabbi during the middle ages ( 1600's ) who is fairly known when it comes to talmud commentary, and such works regaurding jewish law. I would assume he is named after him, but is it known if he is a descendant? --Guardian, Jan. 7, 2007

[edit] Name

He is often referred to as Elazar. Which one is correct? JFW | T@lk 17:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Eliezer got significantly more hits on Google (particularly among the English israeli press), so I used that as the standard. ShalomShlomo 23:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Elazar is the (only) correct version. Way to prove it: you must know the newspaper he himself founded, Yated Ne'eman. The paper has an (unofficial) online version as well - it contains about half the articles from the regular (weekly English Israeli) paper. I repeat, *he* himself founded this newspaper. A few links:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5762/chayesara/ - from around his death " Maran HaGaon Hagodol HaRav Elozor Menachem Mann Shach, ztvk"l," Aside from that, just look at: http://www.google.com/search?q=Elazar+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com&hl=en&lr= and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Elozor+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com . (It's spelled as Elazar or Elozor depending on the writer.) Okay... Now, next, I also looked for "Eliezer Shach" ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Eliezer+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com ) and it gives quite a few results as well. Now *I* am confused as well. Still, I have recently read that (quote from memory): "His real name was Elazar. It is unknown from where the name Eliezer came, but his name was Elazar." I'm 100% sure it's Elazar, so you should change it. PS. The English-Israeli press (Haaretz etc.) are not exactly a good resource for these things, with all due respect to them (I read Haaretz myself). --Daniel575 19:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Daniel575- I used Eliezer because the majority of (English) resources I came across in print and the net used it. If you're convinced the other spelling is accurate, feel free to change it. I'm happy to use whatever spelling as long as we have some consistency between articles. ShalomShlomo 17:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo, if you're going to work on this article more, you will do better by quoting the Hareidi press with which Rav Schach affiliated, rather than Ha'aretz. My initial search on Google of "Menachem Man Shach hesped" turned up Dei'ah VeDibur (the English Yated Neeman here in Israel, which he also founded) and Aish.com, which are much more reliable interpreters of Rav Schach's activities than the secular, leftist Ha'aretz newspaper. As a subscriber to the English Yated, I can tell you that they are printing articles about Rav Schach nearly every week since his passing! Yoninah 19:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Yoninah, thanks for the sources. I knew Schach had a newspaper but was unaware it had an English translation. The page as it presently stands is hardly meant to be definitive; I created it because no one else had, and remembered seeing various Schach articles in Haaretz following his death. While I take your point that the haredi press are likely to certainly have more information regarding Schach's personality and teachings vis-a-vis the Torah world, outside perspectives can also be helpful, particularly relating to, for instance, analysis of Schach's political activities and astuteness, or his perception/legacy among non-haredi Israelis. The optimal solution, I think, would be to incorporate elements from both "types" of sources. The fact that I have yet to do so here is much more a function of a lack of time than it is any bias against the haredi press. I will certainly keep your comments in mind when working on this page in future. Of course, if anyone would care to help fill the various sections out a bit, that would be extremely helpful and appreciated, too. ShalomShlomo 00:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schach a Misnaged?

Isn't true that Rabenu Shach was mitnagued!!!!! He just don't acept -like other jewish, even hasidic ones- what Chabad was/is doing! Bresolver 17:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Many of the resources I've come across on Schach either said he was misnaged, or at least mentioned that he was not hasidic. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Did he have a rebbe, for instance? Do his followers identify as Hasidism or Misnagdim? His rabbinical career seems to show strong affiliation with whatI understand are largely misnagdic yeshiva instutions, and I believe many of his influences were/are notable misnagdim. ShalomShlomo 20:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
ShalomShlomo: Being "not Hasidic" does not automatically make a person into a "misnaged"! In Eastern Europe, and in most non-Hasidic yeshivas today, the bulk of students often came from Hasidic homes. It's not as clear-cut as you imagine. For example, even in Rav Schach's case, you are obviously not aware that he studied and taught at Karlin (see article) when he was younger, and retained a fond connection with that group. And you should note that "misnagdim" basically do NOT self-identify as such. Usually it is used more in jest. Actually, the word "misnaged" has become something of a mild "slur" as it's used by certain (Hasidic) individuals who dislike people who object to those who oppose the extremes of Hasidism. IZAK 02:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
IZAK: Actually, if you check the history of the article, you'll see I started it and was the one who included the Karlin bit. Thanks for the refresher, though. Interesting tidbits aside, is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was, and separated him from the Hasidic rebbes in Israel, for instance. I was also under the impression that Schach's non-affiliation with Hasidism was one of the reason he formed Degel HaTorah. If he wasn't, then someone should write a section addressing this, as I did in the page about Rav Kook. Perhaps you should also write a paragraph or so about this in the various articles pertaining to Misnagdim, such as Mitnagdim and Hasidim and Mitnagdim. It could be very helpful and informative for Wikipedia users. ShalomShlomo 06:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
ShalomShlomo: Rabbi Shach's issues with Hasidic leaders in Israel was based almost exclusively on matters pertaining to Israeli politics, and had absolutely nothing to do with meaningful religious differences and certainly was not motivated by anti-Hasidism. Do not confuse Rabbi Shach as a Haredi leader living at the end of the twentieth century with the positions of the Vilna Gaon who lived two hundred years earlier in the eighteenth century in an age still reeling from the after-effects of the false messiahship of Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676)! The only exception is Rabbi Shach's vehement opposition to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902-1994) (because of fears that like Shabbati Zevi, Rabbi Schneerson would turn out to be a "false Messiah," a position some would say was prescient), and a position shared by other Hasidic leaders as well (Satmar's opposition to Lubavitch is well known, and most Hasidic groups have a disdain for Lubavitch -- and in turn Lubavitch scorns anyone who opposes them.) In fact when Rabbi Shach established the Degel HaTorah political party his ally was the present Belzer Rebbe, Rabbi Yissachar Dov Rokeach (b. 1948) and the two joined forces asking their followers to vote for the new party. Subsequently, Rabbi Shach was invited as the most honored guest to the Bar Mitzvah of the Belzer Rebbe's only son and heir in front of a huge public celebration. So this disproves that Rabbi Shach was anti-Hasidim (which is what mitnagdim means) even at a time when he was forming a new political party without most of his former Hasidic allies of Agudat Israel. From the form of your question: "... is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was... " it shows that you are coming at this subject the wrong way. Rabbi Shach did not self-identify as a "mitnaged". Nobody does! It's almost a silly anachronism by now (see what I have written below to explain this further.) As for Rabbi Shach's relationships with the Hasidic rebbes of Israel who were his contemporaries, in Rabbi Shach's old age (and he was active as a Haredi leader until he was over one hundred years old!), he decided that none of the Hasidic rebbes were his equals in Torah scholarship and he gave up on trying to convince them of his POLITICAL DECISIONS by simply MOVING ON. He first did this when he created the Shas party and later when he created the Degel HaTorah party. One must realize that Rabbi Shach was both a tremendous Torah scholar which he proved through his widely studied written works known as the Avi Ezri as well as being regarded as the pre-eminent rosh yeshiva in the Haredi world, and he simply "did not suffer fools gladly", as the expression goes. He was extremely conscious of his role as a Torah leader and spokesman and he was a highly astute and effective politician (creating two parties in the Israeli Knesset that still function is quite a feat!), but he was not opposed to the teachings or the workings of Hasidic Judaism as such (unlike the Vilna Gaon who was opposed to Hasidism -- "lock-stock-and-barrel"). None of Rabbi Shach's writings or declarations are anti-Hasidic (of course, the modern Lubavitch movemnent under Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the exception, because in Rabbi Shach's view it was a breeding ground for false-Messianism and had the potential to mislead masses of Jews and thus needed to be forcefully and openly opposed head-on -- but not because it was related to Hasidism as such.) Therefore, judging from his written works, Rabbi Shach was a supreme Talmudist but he did not write polemics against Hasidism. In his political actions, even when he formed the Degel HaTorah party he then encouraged it to join with the Hasidic dominated Agudat Israel as the combined United Torah Judaism list. Except for Lubavitch, he had cordial relations with Hasidic groups and Rebbes. Perhaps, the only ones who have a vested interest in labelling him a "mitnaged" are the Lubavitchers, but they have an obvious axe to grind against him, and as a group with a vested interest (that their Rebbe should be the "Moshiach"), it's clear why they would want to call Rabbi Shach a "mitnaged". In fact if you will look at the sites on the Internet that perpetuate the word "mitnagdim" you will see that it's basically ONLY Lubavitch that still keeps up the old propagandistic and long-discarded labels of "mitnaged" or "mitnagdim". So you should not be trapped or fooled by what is by now worn-out terminology that is not used and has been dumped by most normal people. IZAK 06:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the the word "mitnagdim"

I am repositing here what I have just posted at User talk:ShalomShlomo#Use of the the word "mitnagdim". Thanks. IZAK 05:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi ShalomShlomo: Perhaps you are not aware that the word mitnagdim in a modern-day context is very out-dated and may even be regarded as a mild slur by the people you think are "mitnagdim". The original mitnagdim were so called because they followed the Vilna Gaon (1720-1797) who opposed the early Hasidim (who viewed the early Hasidim as another dangerous manifestation of Sabbatai Zevi's influence), particularly Lubavitch and Breslov. The first so-called "mitnagdim" (i.e the Vilna Gaon's disciples) did not choose this name for themslves, rather, it was their Hasidic opponents, who themselves were "mitnagdim" (the word simply means "opponents" in Hebrew), who pinned the label "mitnagdim" on those who did not wish to adopt the new ways of Hasidism -- at the same time that the followers of the Baal Shem Tov (1698-1760) chose to self-righteously call call themselves "Hasidim" (which means "righteous ones" in Hebrew) -- an act of great chutzpah. Without dwelling on past history, by now the fact is clear that there is no such thing as the "mitnagdim" like those who lived in the times of the Vilna Gaon! Hasidism has been well-established because its commitment to Halakha is beyond question and it is not opposed by anyone in the Torah world. Those Haredim who do not follow the Hasidic ways are today known as "Litvaks" or the "Yeshiva world" -- or "Lithuanian yeshiva world" -- but not as "mitnagdim" because, while they seek to maintain their own traditions of the original Ashkenaz that existed for a very long time BEFORE the advent of the Hasidic movement -- they are not presently enaged in an sort of kulturkampf. As proof of the positive and constructive relations between all Haredi Jews (Hasidim and non-Hasidim together) one can look at Agudath Israel of America in the USA which serves as an umbrella organization for Hasidic Rebbes and non-Hasidic Litvish yeshiva deans and their commmunities. And in Israel, the ongoing alliances of Agudat Israel and Degel HaTorah under United Torah Judaism serve the common needs and agendas of all Haredi parties. Bottom line, it is very rare indeed to find groups who self-identify as "mitnagdim" so you should therefore not use that description in articles when you want to talk about or describe Ashkenazi Haredi groups that are not Hasidic. To say "non-Hasidic" is ok, or perhaps "Lithuanian yeshiva communities/rabbis" (sometimes also referred to as "Yeshivish" -- but not always in a serious sense.) Any discussion or mention of "mitnagdim" should therefore be restricted to articles or personalities dealing with the struggles during the times of the Vilna Gaon and the Baal Shem Tov and one or two generations following them. Basically, the major disputes between followers of Hasidism and those who opposed them ended by the end of the nineteenth century. With the dawn of the twentieth century all the European Haredi groups and factions united, most notably as proven by the establishment of the World Agudath Israel in Europe in 1912. Many non-Hasidim have become serious Hasidim over time, and the majority of students and faculty in non-Hasidic yeshivas have strong Hasidic ancestry. The lines run in all directions in the Haredi world, so it is incorrect to use old labels such as "mitnagdim" in a frivolous manner that does not apply today. IZAK 05:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote

The quote aganist Rabbi Schneerson wasn't even said by him. Looking at the sources would back up my claim. ems 18:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Shach's fame and Chabad

Why have some editors here so convinced themselves that Rabbi Shach's fame hinged on his relationship with Chabad and the Rebbe? when nothing could be further from the truth. Rabbi Shach, with his own family connections to some of the most famous Haredi rabbis, through his written work/s the widely studied Avi Ezri in the yeshivah world, his leadership as Rosh Yeshiva of Ponevezh, and his political acumen and effectivenes in all areas of Israel's politics (in which Chabad is but a small part), all bespoke his fame nad greatness. There is no need to defame him in the manner that many Lubavitchers tend to do. That would be a POV defamation. IZAK 08:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK- I agree. I didn't have time yesterday to deal with the more contentious issues in the section; I was more interested in cleaning it up so as to make it more coherent and less redundant- my apologies if that was seen as endorsing the comments. I've tried to make the section more balanced this evening, and I think the version as it presently stands is much more NPOV, or at least approaching it.ShalomShlomo 09:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well; very little of Shach's life or fame had anything to do with Chabad. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry ShalomShlomo if my made it seem like you put it in, you didn't and I was just refering to that version.
The story about Shach being rejected from a teaching position in a chabad school is well known in Chabad. I dont realy see a problem with keeping it in the article specificaly since it clearly says it's what the critics say, it's their POV, not simply stated as fact. I didnt originaly put in any of this so I'm not sure which "analysts" the anom was refering to. IZAK, the rebbe in fact had a big role in Isrealy politics. Also not everything you dont like is "propoganda" (like you say in you edit summary and other places). Shlomke 05:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are my thoughts: I for one would not have a problem with putting a little more of the earlier Chabad stuff in, particularly if the position is as widespread as you say it Shlomke says it is. If a story or argument about a person is well-known, it should probably have at least some mention. Furthermore, Shach's inflammatory comments about Schneerson and Chabad (also mysteriously deleted, I notice) are also well-publicized and should, IMO, have a line or two. If you'll all forgive the Hillel reference, if not in the "Shach and Chabad" section, then where? The Shach-Schneerson feud, as I understand it, was very well-publicized at the time. On what grounds should we be omitting it? I'm not suggesting we turn the page into another "Satmar Conflict", but I really don't see the harm with fleshing this out a little bit- along with the other sections, too, incidentally (I still can't believe there's so little here compared to some other pages of haredi personalities, btw. What does the Satmar rebbe have that Shach didn't?) ShalomShlomo 09:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo: One fails to see how you can say that there is not enough about the feud that Rabbi Shach had with Chabad since this article has a lengthy section devoted exclusively to that already: Elazar Shach#Opposition to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and alternately, the article about Rabbi Schneerson has nothing compared to that in length -- so your comments about this make absolutely no sense. Furthermore it makes no sense that this article should devote a large amount of space to criticizing and tearing down Rabbi Shach from the POV of Lubavitch -- is there a similar section tearing down Rabbi Schneerson from the POV of Rabbi Shach? It would be pointless if there was, because it would not help you learn who they were and what their significance was as key spiritual leaders of the Jews. Also you are not seeing Rabbi Shach's criticisms of Rabbi Schneerson and Chabad in true perspective. Basically what transpired was that Rabbi Shach (based in Israel) made a few, brief comments and criticisms of Rabbi Schneerson (based in the USA) in public, conveying his views and by extension that of the the yeshiva world that trusted him as their spokesman and that was that. The secular media of course hyped this trans-Atlantic feud among Haredi rabbis up and kept the pot boiling because it made for good copy and a yet another juicy story about Haredim (with one based in Bnei Brak and one in Brooklyn) to keep on the front burner, but the fact is that beyond Rabbi Shach's very brief criticial comments and a letter or two he wrote that was made public that was it. Note too that Rabbi Shach's life did not rise and fall depending on what Lubavitch said about him, he was literally a much larger-than-life figure than that. IZAK 06:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK: My comment was made in reference to why I thought the Shach-Schneerson feud deserved to be on the page, and why verifable elements of the feud deserved to stay in. I have no interest in tearing Shach down from the POV of Chabad, and I don't think the section does this (aside from the bit that Shlomke keeps putting in about him being an ignoramus, which I think given Shach's reputation as a scholar is almost certainly untrue, in addition to being unverifiable). Saying he criticized Chabad is far from defamation. Incidentally, this wouldn't be taking up such a large proportion of the article if some people (Wikipedia Project Judaism, maybe?) would actually write about Shach's career as a posek and a leader instead of bashing the few attempts to flesh the page out. In any event, I agree with the present version you have written, and have added my own contributions along with it. ShalomShlomo 07:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo: FYI Rabbi Shach's followers did not regard him as a "posek" as such (there were others who were in that category of "Halakhic decisors") rather Rabbi Shach was regarded as a Manhig HaDor ("leader [of] the generation") with many considering him to be the RaShKeBeHag --> Rabban Shel Kol Bnei HaGolah ("[supreme] rabbi [of] all the people of the exile") meaning the de facto "supreme leader" of all Jews in the exile (meaning in the era following the destruction of the Jewish Temple) a position which only one great rabbi can hold at any given time. In contradistinction, the Lubavitchers gave the title of Nasi HaDor ("president/prince [of] the generation") to Rabbi Schneerson so you begin to see the scope of the rivalry between the two camps. Of course, the Lubavitchers took it further and promoted Rabbi Schneerson to Messiah and even to God himself (according to some of their belief systems) which only fueled the other side to raise the ante against Lubavitch. Basically, it was a no-win situation for everyone which only ended once both Rabbi Schneerson and Rabbi Shach passed away (and you know what Lubavitchers think that their Rebbe did not "really" die, so the problem continues, but with much less fervor because there is no leadership on either side that comes to the level of either Rabbi Schach's or Rabbi Schneerson's greatness in Haredi and Hasidic Judaism.) IZAK 09:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK- thanks, as always, for the interesting info. Who was Manhig HaDor before Shach? Is there any information on how he began his "climb" (aside from the obvious advantages of marrying into Rav Meltzer's family)? I think stuff like this would be very interesting to the average Wikipedian- I know I'm often very curious about how various gedolim got to where they did. ShalomShlomo 09:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo: Before the era of Rav Shach, the Litvak Haredim basically accepted Rabbi Avraham Yeshayahu Karelitz (d. 1953) (known as the Chazon Ish) as their manhig hador (he and Rabbi Shach were both from Bnei Brak). (NOTE: There is a Brisker wing to the Israeli Litvak Haredim who are anti the Agudah-style approach of working with and within the State of Israel and its official organs and their followers looked to the Brisker Rov Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (d. 1959) as the supreme leader of the Haredim before Rav Shach instead of the Chazon Ish). There was a bit of a vacuum until Rav Shach asserted himself but Rabbi Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky (d. 1985) (also from Bnai Brak and known as The Steipler Gaon who was also The Chazon Ish 's brother-in-law) was regarded as a great manhig but was more of a posek, and many Israeli Haredim looked to some American Haredi rabbis, like Rabbi Aharon Kotler (d. 1962) as a pre-eminent leader. The Israeli Hasidic world was dominated by the Rebbes of Ger, particularly Rabbi Yisrael Alter who was the most powerful Rebbe in Israel for thirty years (from 1948 until he died in 1977). But by the early 70s Rav Shach was already ruling the roost and calling most of the shots as you can see from his effectiveness as a political leader in breaking away from Agudah and creating single-handedly both Shas and then later Degel HaTorah his enduring "political legacies" and "gifts" to the State of Israel. Not bad for a "non-Zionist". Now I must truly sign off and get some sleep. Shabbat Shalom ! IZAK 12:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mezuri "minor" edit cancelled

1) Rabbi Shach opposition to Chabad, is an "hot issue". Chabad supporters want to insert here their point of view. But here the stuff shoudl be as neutral as possible. So unless there is accepted evidence to this degrading claims, it should remain here as an unproved claim.

2) Mezuri tried to hide his change. Calling it "fixed minor incorrect facts", whihc is a balatant lie. You want to say that Chabad's versions etc. is true? Say it openly. Once you hide this under "minor correcting" you show everyone that you are playing games. Nobody is going to trust you anymore! IdeasLover 23:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "False statement"

Meshulam- Could you explain why you discounted the story reg. Rav Shach and Chabad as a "false statement"? Alan Nadler is a respected Jewish scholar who has written one book and many articles on the theology of Lithuanian haredim. I have in front of me a copy of Ha'aretz editor David Landau (himself Orthodox, though not haredi)'s book, Piety and Power. He, too, repeats the story: "[Rav Shach] has even gibed, according to his followers, that 'Habad is the nearest thing to Judaism...'" The Jerusalem Post also contains a version of the story: http://www.bgu.ac.il/politics/newman/eng/pirsumim/columns/Rabbi%20Shach's%20Political%20Legacy%20-%20web%20page.htm Shach is attributed with having responded to the question "What is the closest religion to Judaism?" by answering, "Habad."

A quick Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hs=390&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=shach+%22to+Judaism%22+closest&btnG=Search) confirms that, even if the story is apocryphal, its creation is not recent, and it has become common knowledge among many in the Jewish world. Like it or not, the story certainly exists, though its accuracy may be debateable.

None of this, of course, authoritatively proves that the incident occurred, but at least I have offered some documentation to back it. Do you have anything to support your counter-claim? Do you have any first-hand knowledge disproving it? Or does it just "not sound like" something Shach would say? ShalomShlomo 05:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Jpost version and the Nadler story are contradictory (Lubavitch vs. Chabad). Evidence that the story is made up. Every reference to it is always from someone who heard it from someone, etc. If you want to put this story in, I'll go find sources for the story suggesting that Shach was angry at Lubavitch because a Lubavitcher yeshiva threw him out when he was young, because he didn't know how to learn. (That story exists, and I have heard it confirmed by credible sources, apocryphal though it may be).--Meshulam 04:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
How can I have first hand or even second hand proof of a non-event, when there is no stated time frame for the event in question? --Meshulam 04:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, among other things, you could have documentation (even oral or anecdotal) that the story is a hoax. That would at least be something. Am I to assume this is not the case? And if not, again, I have to ask what basis you have for declaring the story false and deleting it. Is it anything other than a personal hunch (or a desire to keep any information about Schneerson you feel is inappropriate off Wikipedia) ?
As you your other comment, how are the the various accounts contradictory when none purport to be direct quotes (but rather paraphrases), AND the two terms are commonly used synonyms? And I don't know what you think my motives are, but I could really care less what you "dig up" on Shach vis-a-vis hostile Chabad sources, as long as there's some sort of reliable source (note that I wasn't the one who took issue with it in the first time it was posted). The fact that you're treating this difference of opinion as some sort of tit-for-tat, "you do this, I'll get you back" scenario is a bit disappointing. I have no horse in this race and have no interest in defaming anyone. I'm curious why you are so proprietary and personally invested in this matter. This shouldn't be a question of, "anything critical of Chabad has to have something critical of Shach, too." If you want to argue that the story is irrelevant or off-topic, that would be a different conversation. Why is this sort of response/threat necessary? (And incidentally, your account of Shach's Chabad "eviction" differs from the other version someone else put up- using your logic that must automatically discount it as well.) ShalomShlomo 04:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I really do not care for this bio. I think it says little about the man, and tends to pay far more attention to Lubavitch than the bio itself warrants. I strongly suggest a neutral rewrite.

[edit] The Luibavitch Section should be taken out

Either the section should be taken out, or a truthful version comporting more with the facts must be put in. This is not a forum to insert the Chabad rumors regarding Rav Shach's supposed reasons for placing pressure on the Rebbe for allowing his followes to believe him to be Mashiach. I have never seen a bio put such a slant on someone else's extremely prejudiced and incorrect views toward its subject.

Pinchos, if you have a reason to take out documented facts relating Rav Shach, please talk to me first. Its not good etiquette to act out of animus toward anyone.

I believe Pinchos owes me an apology. DavidCharlesII 21:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Instead of apologzind for his continues cynical abuse of power, Pinchoc has once again manipulated Wikipedia guidelines to assure that an article would conform with his npov. Despite my quotations of well known books, Pinchos has continued to delte them, unaware, perhaps, of the extreme irony of his alleged justification (npov). If anyone can advise as to how one can ensure that the Wikipedia community not be hijacked by individuals with an agenda to inject articles with their npov, I would appreciate their help. Everyone is free to observe my changes and Pinchos's continued agenda in destroying not only meaningful additions--but helpful in ensuring factual accurcacy (as opposed to the disgrace this article has become). DavidCharlesII 14:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pinchos: Rav Shach had no critics on the issue of Lubavitch Messianism save Lubavitch Messianists. Your continued editing out of this fact is NPOV and violates Wikipedia's rules.

Quoting Rav Hutner from Making of a Gadol is NOT original research.

Removing the known comments Rav Aharon Soleveichik has on Lubavitch Messianism is not only untruthful but also smacks of NPOV. Revise your editions accordingly, and try to stop hijacking the work of others with discussing it first--it violates Wikipedia's policies. Thank you. DavidCharlesII 14:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pincho C: Your continued use of highly negative npov edits on this page has been noted. Please note your comments only on this forum. Wikipedia is not a forum for your particularly unfounded positions on this subject. Your previous lack of appropriate etiquette pursuant to Wikipedia's standars has been noted as well. Take this as a warning. DavidCharlesII 16:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lubavitch

I have taken out the bio on the Rebbe in this article, on the grounds that it violates NPOV and has very little relevance in the subject's life. If it can be written from a lesser Lubavitch perspective and with far less detail, I would agree to keep it.

Thank you.

DavidCharlesII 17:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What "bio"? It is a section in the article about a controversial issue Shach involved himself in and which remained on his agenda for the better half of twenty-five years. Beyond Shach's life, it also gives context into the split of Agudah and the founding of Degel and helps explain present-day rivalries and animosity between Shach's followers and Chabad (and, as an addition, serves as another data point in documenting Litvish opposition to Schneerson). I agree that, strictly speaking, this is not the "job" of the Rabbi Shach page, but he was involved in this issue for a long time, it is one of the things he is remembered for, particularly outside of his own community, and explaining it- or deleting it- has ripple effects on other topics and articles.
Furthermore, as I was the one who wrote this section, primarily using secular Israeli social science and media sources, I would be very interested in you explaining the supposed pro-Lubavitch POV you see.
Again, I question your tendency towards deleting material you believe to be POV or irrelevant rather than working to fix or improve it. ShalomShlomo 18:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to disrespect your work, and I apologize sincerely if I offended you.

I'm neither offended nor disrespected; I'm confused. I am far from a Chabad fan and fail to see how the section in question has a Lubavitch POV.

I called it a bio on purpose. It seems way different from the section on the Rebbe (I hope you don't say shlit"a).

I don't call anyone shlita. Take a look at the Satmar talk page from way back when.

My issue was not only was it written from a Lubavitch perspective, as opposed to working through Rav Shach's--any by extension--Rav Hutner's, R' Ahron's, and literally all gedolim outside Lubavitch today--concerns about Lubavitch Messianism.

Again, I disagree. The section is written from the perspective of an outside observer- Shach had problems with Chabad; they manifested themselves in this way, example X Y and Z. Some Chabad people said these were personally motivated, Shach's people say they weren't. I agree, it's not a detailed working of the theological differences between them, it has a largely political focus. This is pro-Lubavitch how? The section descibes three or four incidents where Shach and Schneerson clashed. You are seeing pro-Chabad bias where none exists. If you are interested in putting more info in to give context to the theological dimensions to their disagreement, feel free- though of course this would increase the section's size.

I think this bio is not like, say, Rav Schorr's or Rav Shmuelevitz's. It focuses on controversies, not the person. If the Lubavitch issue needs to be put in here at all, it could take a sentence or two long. Look at the other bios and you will understand where I am coming from.

Most of Shach's notoriety outside of his immediate community came from his involvement in such controversies. As long as they are presented in a fair and respectable manner, I fail to see why they should be automatically excluded. Again, see the Satmar page.

I will be willing to work together with you in fashioning something reasonable, honest and fair. DavidCharlesII 13:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I look forward to it. Also feel free to use my individual talk pages.ShalomShlomo 20:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have any idea what's going on with the Chabad section? Hello? ShalomShlomo 22:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


"Furthermore, many Roshei Yeshiva, including Rav Ahron Feldman, have since echoed Rav Schach's concerns with respect to Lubavitch Messianism." Who is Rav Ahron Feldman, and why his opinion is interesting in particular?

he is one of many prominent Roshei Yeshiva who are appalled with some of the practices that appear to be mainstreaming in Lubavitch. Please do not defend Meshichists in this article. This article is about RAV SHACH. His values are important to the extent it can be verified he held them. Too much defense of meshichists should be in an article defending Lubavitch Messianism. Further attempts to insult the subject of the article will be treated in accordance with Wikipedia rules.

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 11:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent editing of 67.81.155.106 does not conform to rules

1. In an encyclopedia article, after referring to someone as "Rabbi" or "Rav" (the first time mentioning his name), from then on you only use last name.

2. When something is quoted from a source, don't squeze in your own comments.

3. Need a source for the following:

"Schneerson was never regarded as an equal of Rav Shach's in the Torah world; and thus his interest in disputing Rav Shach, a man almost unanimously hailed as the greatest scholar of the generation by gedolim of earlier generations, was greeted with bewilderment, if not amusement by the Torahworld at large. To this day, Schneerson's antics merely amplify his reputation as an eccentric who had no respect for the traditions and leadership of the Torah world."

"Rav Shach was an unwilling member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah beginning the 1970s, the position being forced on him by Rav A.Y. Karelitz,..."

"In 1988, citing disagreements in leadership style with the various Hasidic rebbes in the Agudat Israel party, Shach officially broke away from Agudat Israel..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonoson3 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)