Talk:Elaine Chao

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I don't think people take note of the "L." much. This page should be moved to Elaine Chao. --Jiang 08:57 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sometimes the middle name is consistently used by the person and the public, like Pearl S. Buck, despite the fact that there's no other well-known person by the same name (hence not a specifier). But "Elaine Cho" seems to be equally common. Although I had never heard of her, despite being a Taiwanese as well, until I read about her in WP here. So I can't account for the popularity over a long term of time in the press. --Menchi 09:05 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I did a google news search. "Elaine Chao" turned out 756 results. "Elaine L. Chao" turned out 73. The white house site does not have the "L." listed: [1] I guess a move is to be made. --Jiang 09:14 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Ok, done. For the record, the redirect's history was:
17:16 11 Jun 2003 . . User:Jiang (#REDIRECT)
--Menchi 09:34 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Middle name L.

The dot uses "Lan": [2]. --Jiang | Talk 08:37, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Great. I've trimmed the article accordingly. --Menchi (Talk)â 09:26, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

"Chao was the first Asian American to serve as director of the Peace Corps. She expanded Peace Corps' presence in Eastern Europe and Central Asia by establishing the first Peace Corps programs in Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and other newly independent countries."

     Done. 64.229.39.247 19:47, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Early years on Fox News

In a recent interview on Fox News, they stated the following fact: "When she came to this country [the U.S.] she could not speak English [they gave some examples of the ridicule she suffered at the hands of the other students]. Four years later she was voted class president." If anyone can figure out what class presidency one can serve in at the age of 12... or get more correct facts on this... I think it nicely illustrates how she has a history of not only overcoming adversity but excelling in her endeavors. –DeweyQ 17:37, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwanese?

It is POV to list Elaine Chao as Taiwanese because that is contrary to self and popular identification. see official biography and other links. In contrast this search shows none of the first couple pages (other than wikipedia and clones) identifying Elaine Chao as "Taiwanese". The label "Chinese American" is not controversial here; the label "Taiwanese American" is. Before the Taiwanese localization movement in the 1990s, almost no mainlanders identified themselves as Taiwanese, and their passports, ID cards, military draft documents, etc. were labelled with their ancestral provinces in mainland China. Are we supposed to say that John McCain is Panamanian American too? --Jiang 20:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The official biography from the U.S. Department of Labor makes no mention of Elaine Chao being either Chinese or Taiwanese. The most NPOV move would be to remove the “Chinese American” label and not replace it with any other controversial labels. =D Jumping cheese Contact 23:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

What is so POV about the label "Chinese American"? I just don't see who would be objecting. Verifiability is not an issue here.

Here she calls herself a Chinese American: SECRETARY CHAO: "Well, as a Chinese American, as an American of Chinese descent, I have, perhaps, a special view about the competitiveness in a situation..." --Jiang 03:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice research! Chao sounds a little repetitive when she says "as a Chinese American, as an American of Chinese descent" (hehehe, funny). Regardless, the article doesn’t loose anything when it’s missing reference to the Chinese or Taiwanese issue. =D Jumping cheese Contact 04:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It is verifiable and undisputed that she is Chinese American, so the article should say so. Perhaps a more thorough explanation of her background is also in order: [3] --Jiang 06:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Montie5 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)She's definitely Chinese American or American Chinese. Chinese here means her ethnicity. The majority of people in Taiwan are of Chinese ethnicity. Nothing controversial about it.

Biographies do not go by ethnicities (a person from Canada is called Canadian, not Métis if he or she was an ethnic Métis). I believe that the article should omit the controversial Chinese or Taiwanese label altogether, but if Chao identifies herself as “Chinese”, the article should include it (although the article should mention that Chao explicitly identifies herself as Chinese to avoid any POV issues). That should settle almost all issues. =D Jumping cheese Contact 01:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe biographies should contain their ethnic identity. A lot of biographies do: from KT Tunstall to Brad Pitt, from Tiger Woods to Keanu Reeves. -- Montie5 09:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Condoleeza Rice is noted as African American, but he does not come from Africa- she comes from Alabama. I don't see the POV: just who is claiming that Elaine Chao is not Chinese American? Who is countering her claim that she is? --Jiang 03:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Rice is "African-American" because that is the politically correct term. The term "Caucasian" or "Asian-American" are used to denote race, not ethnicity. =) Jumping cheese Contact 20:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
And ethnicity denotes race. Montie5 16:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't really follow the logic. Ethnicity denoting race does what? Sorry if I sound frustrated. Jumping cheese Contact 20:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a compromise that should be acceptable by both parties. The article should state that Chao is Chinese, but also include that Chao has explicitly identified herself as Chinese. Thus, the article will not be taking any potential political stand. Does that sound acceptable? Please say yes! =D Jumping cheese Contact 03:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I accept a footnote following the first mention of "Chinese American" linking to the above transcript.--Jiang 05:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
How about moving the "Chinese American" with footnote down to the Childhood and education section. Chao is the first Asian-American in the federal cabinet, not specifically the first "Chinese-American". I'm going to go ahead and make the changes. If any Wikipedian has a serious problem with the changes, feel free to change them back (but please explain why). =D Jumping cheese Contact 04:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Bonafide.hustla's revert deleted legitimate content unrelated to the dispute. Norman Mineta was the first Asian American in the cabinet (when he was Laborcommerce secretary by Clinton). Elaine Chao is the second Asian American. Saying that she merely "describes herself" as Chinese American (instead of an outright statement of fact as is done for others) makes it seem that her status as a Chinese American is in dispute. Except here and by Bonafide.hustla, it is not. Hers is a clear case on whether the label should apply. On the contrary, is there anyone referring to her as a Taiwanese American?--Jiang 05:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Chao's ststus is in dispute "here" should be sufficient to question the label. Chao is not the first Chinese-American to serve on the federal cabinet, but the very first Asian-American (much more significant than simply the first "Chinese-American"). Thus, I do not agree with placing the label in the intro section. I'm allright with the rest of the edits. =D Jumping cheese Contact 22:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll repeat myself and be repetitive in my comments because this isn't getting through: Chao is the first Chinese American to serve on the federal cabinet. Chao is not the first Asian American to serve on the federal cabinet. Norman Mineta is the first Asian American to serve on the federal cabinet. Norman Mineta was appointed to the cabinet as Secretary of Commerce in 2000 and as Secretary of Transportation in 2001. Chao was appointed to the cabinet as Secretary of Labor in 2001 and previously held no cabinet post prior to that appointment. As such, Chao is the first Chinese American and second Asian American to serve in the federal cabinet.

In the spririt of WP:NOR, a dispute here is not sufficient to question the label. If I go to Talk:George W. Bush claiming that the notion that Bush is a devout Christian can be countered by the fact that Bush is 666, then does that mean we should say "Bush describes himself as a born-again Christian" instead of "Bush is a born-again Christian"? If we tried to accomodate all the misguided and misinformed in the world, the Wikipedia would be full of weasel words.

Now, is there anything to suggest that Chao's status as a Chinese American is in dispute? --Jiang 01:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a whole mess of research! Sorry about that, I didn't know that Chao was the first Chinese-American to hold a federal cabinet. =) Jumping cheese Contact 01:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts

There's a reverting war going on. Please follow the 3 reverts guideline. Settle the issue on the talk page and find a compromise. =D Jumping cheese Contact 04:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A violation of NPOV. Please see Talk: David Wu--Bonafide.hustla 03:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I understand, but Wikipedians have to come to a compromise to prevent revert wars. =) Jumping cheese Contact 04:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about content rather than compromise. Unfortunately, this example of compromising results in incoorect, POV info on this biography. Self identification is not valid encyclopedia info. Bobby Fischer identifies himself as not Jewish yet his name appear on the List of Jews. There is a double standard existing here. I am not gonna involve myself in a revert war right now but if we can't come up with a better solution, I'm afraid some necessary steps must be taken.--Bonafide.hustla 04:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I'm not sure what Wikipedia's policy is for biographies. However, if other Wikipedians have no problems with Chao identifying herself as Chinese-American, I guess it's safe to keep it in the page. =) Jumping cheese Contact 05:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Bonafide.hustla (talk · contribs) is the only one having problems with Chao identifying herself as Chinese-American (which is clearly cited). Bonafide.hustla is clearly POV pushing on this and other articles. He is trying to have a revert war over a non-issue here. RevolverOcelotX

[edit] Rating

I rated this a B in the Biography project. Clearly, there is significant expansion that can take place in this important member of the administration. Edit wars will not help to upgrate this article, so please come to a consensus in the talk pages rather than engage in needless edit wars. ludahai 魯大海 10:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

A lot of people in the labor movement are very critical of Chao and there is no mention of it on the page. In fact the page only cites achievements. There should be at least some note of the dissent. For example, AFGE local 12 has posted in their newsletters a number of anti-worker comments and initiatives that she has put forward, most recently a bid to privatize government employee jobs without any proof of justification, such as cost savings. Bashthefashagain (talk) 20:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "longest serving"

The intro says: Chao is the President's only original cabinet member, making her the longest serving cabinet member during President Bush's administration.

What about John P. Walters? Or being Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy doesn't qualify as being as "cabinet member"? Illuminate me. ☆ CieloEstrellado 14:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Correct; he's officially not a member of the cabinet, but holds a cabinet-level position. ¶ EqualRights (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting, but confusing. ☆ CieloEstrellado 17:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)