Talk:Eight Belles

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BREEDING TO DEATH

They say that they are breeding these thouroghbreds to death they may be. Most registries will not allow you to inbreed within 5 generations I am not seeing that followed very well by the jockey club the bloodline are too repetitive and too close together for good genetics. Also I have been around horse for 20 years and they are starting and pushing these animals way to fast and hard a 3 year old horse isn't even done growing yet they are the equivalent of a 10 y3ear old child would you ask a 10 year old kid to do the work of a 20 year old person these horses shouldn't be being ridden until they are at least 3 and not racing until they are 5 when their growth plates have closed until then they are just babies doing a mans work.

Contents

[edit] Vandalism

Might want to put a lock on this article. There's already been some vandalism.24.187.134.112 (talk) 22:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll second that. There is more than "some" vandalism. (HairMetalLives (talk) 22:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC))
Already requested it. --SmashvilleBONK! 23:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks.24.187.134.112 (talk) 23:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems premature to protect this. I'm keeping an eye out, through.--Bedford 23:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't see the PETA stuff as Vandalism. It's part of the events around the death. No matter what you think of PETA (and I find it personally funny that they are up in arms over the death of any animal when they kill so many themselves), I didn't see the language used to describe the events as being colored. However, if it takes up too much of the entry then perhaps a single statement about PETA taking issue would be better. Also, those keeping better track of what is being said can add in the news reports where people state, "This kind of thing just happens sometimes." --Cozret (talk) 12:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Barbaro Connection

The point everyone is missing is that these horses are being run into the ground before they are fully mature. I have trained horses for over 30 years and I would not consider putting a saddle and a rider on a horse until they are 3. These racehorses are being pushed way too soon and that is the reason for the breakdowns.

I can't edit the page myself because it's locked, but she and Barbaro share the same "grandfather", Mr. Prospector. Other horses related to him have had similar injuries, including Smarty Jones (chronic ankle bruising causing his retirement), Afleet Alex (cannon bone fracture), and Smart Strike (condylar fracture). Bad genes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Way too original researchy...although you are right that Mr. P and Northern Dancer seem to get overrun in pedigrees of less sound horses. --SmashvilleBONK! 00:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
That said, I will definitely be on the lookout for that kind of story, and if reported anywhere, I'll see to it its included.--Bedford 00:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Her sire was retired at age 4 after a fractured hoof, and she's also related through Mr. Prospector to Anees (fractured pastern, euthanized), Grindstone (leg fracture), and Birdstone (bone chip). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, way too original researchy. Many, many, many horses get bone chips and other injuries. --SmashvilleBONK! 01:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I know, I've been around them for some time. But it seems that the percentage of descendants of Mr. Prospector that have large injuries like this are greater than in other bloodlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 01:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
That's probably because there are a larger number of Mr. P descendants. But...I mean, if you went with only the prominent ones...you could say that based on Rags to Riches, Jazil and Invasor, the Blushing Groom line throws unsoundness. The fact of the matter is that it's still relative. For every Mr. P descendant retiring or dying due to an injury, there are several more that retired healthy. I mean, Unbridled died, but due to colic. --SmashvilleBONK! 01:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm talking about a percentage of his descendants as opposed to a percentage of racehorses (though most prominent ones are related to him somehow) with no direct recent (past 5-6 generations) connections to him. Something just seems off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 01:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I just got done reading an article from the Wall Street Journal called Racing's Royal Bloodlines. It underscores what you say. Barbaro was from Mr. Prospector, and so was Eight Belles. But that's not all. The bloodlines of 8 of the top contenders all trace back to Native Dancer (who won many races, but is most remembered for his second place in the 1953 Kentucky Derby prior to retirement) and Nasrullah, a stallion from Britian born in 1940 who's decendents include Secretariat and Seattle Slew. There appears to be an incredible amount of inbreeding taking place in America's thoroughbred bloodlines.

This is not the first time I've heard this. Some of my appraisal clients are into the race horse industry and say the very same thing. The Native Dancer decendants are reported to have heavily muscled legs, and take long, super thrusting strides. This is coupled with a genetic tendency toward weaker bones in the legs, and causes a dangerous combination as we've seen twice in the past several years.

Today's race horse owners and breeders appear to invest so much, that they feel the genetic chance at a champion is a necessary. It's also been said by many that the bloodlines really don't contribute much to the chance of a champion. It's far more related to the training. Now, before you say 'bull hockey', think about it. Those who have the money to pay $300,000 for a yearling or nearly that much for a stud fee, also have the money to pay for an awesome trainer or set of trainers. Who's to say the majority of the horse's success is due to bloodlines rather than the animal's heart to win and a good trainer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinka82 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I mean this in the nicest way possible...but you guys will need to find another forum if you want to discuss this any further. This talk page is for discussion of the article. --SmashvilleBONK! 00:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to see some of what was included on this talk page included in the article, as I said before, but unfortunately I can't edit it with it being locked. I was laying out the facts, which many in the industry know about the Mr. Prospector/Unbridled line.
Again...Wikipedia has strict policies against original research. And if anything, wouldn't that belong in the Mr. Prospector article? --SmashvilleBONK! 02:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
This is in no way "original research". Recent articles in the New York Times mention the established connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 05:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Unless you can find an article that specifically says "Eight Belles fractured her ankles because of her lineage" or something like that, then it is entirely original research and speculation. --SmashvilleBONK! 13:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Smashville, why did you remove the link to the Native Dancer page? That horse is generally agreed to be the ancestor of the generational troubles we see today, and is the only horse not mentioned now, since you removed it. Please read the papers. You will see that this is not "original research" (your words). If you agree, please restore it. Thank you. JohnClarknew (talk) 20:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
If you would have read my edit summary, I said we didn't need to start listing her entire pedigree when it's already on the page. It had nothing to do with original research and everything to do with not duplicating information. --SmashvilleBONK! 20:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
But if you will re-read the page, you will find no mention of Native Dancer, the source of the current pedigree problem that everyone's talking about now! Please link and look at it, this is serious. JohnClarknew (talk) 20:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
If you are putting that information in to try and influence the reader, then it violates WP:NPOV. If you are putting it in based on an unsourced and unconfirmed theory, then it violates WP:OR. There is no reason to make a passing reference of a horse in her pedigree that is 4 generations back. --SmashvilleBONK! 21:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Your insistence of keeping out sourced information and facts and published theories relevant to this article is itself evidence of violation of WP:NPOV, and it's not mine. Your ref to WP:OR is preposterous. I have put back the name and link to Native Dancer. JohnClarknew (talk) 22:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
You have referenced it with an opinion piece. It is a theory and it is irrelevant. This is an encyclopedia article. You have already mentioned that your purpose is to influence people's opinions. We do not speculate on Wikipedia. Speculation is original research. The fact of the matter is that her pedigree is already listed on the page. There is no proven link between Mr. Prospector, Native Dancer and breakdowns. The only purpose of adding it would be to sway the reader's opinion. --SmashvilleBONK! 23:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Smashville, you have again removed that which offends you. I don't think you have that right, citing WP directives which I think are misplaced. I have requested review from others. JohnClarknew (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ruffian Connection

I don't know if Eight Belles was related to Ruffian at all, but this isn't the first time a champion filly has had a heart stronger than her legs. Champion Thoroughbred filly Ruffian who went undefeated until her death after breaking down in a nationally televised match race at Belmont Park on July 6, 1975 against the Kentucky Derby winner, Foolish Pleasure. She broke 2 sesamoid bones and was euthanized on the surgical table in a failed attempt to repair her.Harddraver (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much all thoroughbreds are genetically related somehow, but Ruffian and Eight Belles were genetically related through some recent relatives. Nearco, Pharos, Nogara, Native Dancer, Polynesian, and Geisha are all horses that are genetically tie Ruffian and Eight Belles. It's also worth noting that inbreeding is extremely common in thoroughbreds, and seen more often than not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 22:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment: Eight Belles and Native Dancer

Whether a link and controversial sourced comment can be banished from a page. 00:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

  • Eight Belles, the horse that was very publicly put down after the 2008 Kentucky Derby, has been referenced to being part of the progeny of a 4-generations-back ancestor, the famous Native Dancer, leading to weakness in her ankles. The majority of today's U.S. race horses are similarly at risk, according to a critical editorial in the L.A. Times [1]. There has already been much discussion and comment in the current press. User Smashville seeks to keep this information out of the Eight Belles article, and deletes the information. JohnClarknew (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • User Smashville seeks to keep this information out of the article citing requirements of neutral point of view, however the fact that it is receiving mainstream press seems to make its inclusion a necessary part of the article just to keep it neutral. I do not believe user Smashville should be allowed to continue editing this article, as obviously he/she has a biased opinion and is allowing it to reflect in this article.

Comments

  • Not sure why this is considered controversial. The Native Dancer lineage has been mentioned in the press - eg: Denver Post, and Wall Street Journal. I don't see a problem including it in the article. J. Van Meter (talk) 01:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It already is mentioned. Her pedigree is on the page. You can click Raise a Native and see who his sire was. It's one thing to say, "her lineage traces back to Mr. Prospector and Native Dancer". It's another to say "Mr. Prospector is in her bloodlines on both her sire and dam's sides, as well as her bloodline to Native Dancer four generations back. That connection has led to published controversy regarding issues relating to overbreeding." One of those is clearly biased and is based entirely on opinion and no proven fact. --SmashvilleBONK! 02:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It is not based entirely in opinion, which is why the Wall street Journal, Denver Post, and LA Times have all published articles on this topic. It is not the fact that these horses are in her lineage; it is their effect on her bone structure, which should be included in her article. The issue here is the fact that Mr. Prospector's lines are potentially leading to injury-prone horses, and it should be at the very least included in the main article as a source of controversy. To not include it at all is to deny the validity of the existence of the issue.
  • The only "sources" are opinion articles. The issue here is that there is no proof, there are no reliable sources and it creates an utter bias. --SmashvilleBONK! 04:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The only biased one is yourself, Smashville. The lack of inclusion of a theory based on the personal bias of the person repeatedly editing the Wikipedia page is not in any way neutral. If anything, at the bare minimum, as I have stated before, it should be included as a source of controversy, because it has been in many major respected publications. Your refusal to see even that shows just who it is here who is attempting to slant this article to their own viewpoint. Also, on the page for the events of September 11, 2001, it includes a reference to the conspiracy theories surrounding the event. Have those been proven? Of course not. But because they exist, and have been discussed, they deserve mention. There is an entire Wikipedia page for conspiracy theories surrounding September 11th, 2001. Things do not have to be proven to deserve mention in Wikipedia; this is not the science channel. It's a place where if it gets mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, LA Times, and other major media sources, it should at least get a quick blurb in the main article, no matter the personal bias of a rogue editor.
  • I'm biased by not wanting to show a bias? This isn't a conspiracy theory and this isn't 9/11. This is an encyclopedia article about a horse. Unless you can provide reliable sources, adding that information doesn't even remotely adhere to a neutral point of view. --SmashvilleBONK! 05:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The fact remains that the possibility that the Mr. Prospector line has resulted in a horse more likely to go lame has been discussed in major news media. It has been widely discussed in public news forums, and as such, should be included in the wikipedia article, even marked as a source of controversy. To refuse to do so is selective editing, and editing with a bias. Just because you do not believe something to be true (or maybe you have an interest in it not being true?) does not mean that it should not follow the same standards as every other article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.175.25 (talk) 05:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Point of order. Native Dancer was written in to the page, and then edited out, leading to this discussion. Where's the burden? Does it stay in until resolution, or stay out until resolution? JohnClarknew (talk) 06:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Then how 'bout we pull the pedigree chart out one or two more generations: that will give a picture of how the Raise a Native/Native Dancer line is doubled up in Eight Belles via Mr. Prospector. J. Van Meter (talk) 14:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • More to the point: I believe that the discussion that has been going on in the media (Wall Street Journal, LA Times, etc) regarding the Native Dancer and Mr. Prospector lines and a predisposition to injury should be included at the very least under a "Controversy" heading. To deny the existence of the controversy is biasing the article.
  • Another article from the Wall Street Journal, this time quoting the owner of Eight Belles, and citing proceedings seeking solutions at a seminar on horse breeding [2]. But I suppose Smashville would call this "opinion", and should not appear in the article. JohnClarknew (talk) 18:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Even if it were opinion, which I don't believe it is, the fact is that the issue of her breeding contributing to her death is being discussed in major news sources such as the Wall Street Journal, LA Times, and Denver Post. This in and of itself is enough to warrant its inclusion on the main page. Not including it has biased the main page.FlyingChanges (talk) 19:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I have no problem with a controversy section or adding generations on the pedigree. The only problem I had was with the wording and drawing our own conclusions. And JohnClark, an editorial IS opinion. That's why I said it is not a reliable source. It's not my personal opinion...it is a simple fact...editorials are opinion. --SmashvilleBONK! 18:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • That "editorials are opinion" is your opinion, Smashville, and THAT'S a simple fact! Oh boy, if we're going to deal in analytic philosophy and Sartrean existentialism, we can make a case that all fact is actually opinion. Anyway . . . now that this is out of the way, let's fix it with a controversy section and end this discussion. Thanks to everyone who contributed. JohnClarknew (talk) 06:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It is not my opinion that editorials are opinion...it's a fact. Editorials are opinion columns. That's what they are. But whatever. This is resolved. --SmashvilleBONK! 13:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Siblings=

Did Eight Belles have any siblings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.110.74 (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)