Talk:Egypt/Archive 3

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Historical accuracy

On the main article page it lists the 13th dynasty as being more current than the 18th dynasty. When in fac t the 13th dynasty was 1400 years earlier from around 1773 B.C.to around 1650 B.C. It's probably just an honest mistake and should be corrected by the person that made it. The thirteen Dynasty page here in Wikipedia bears the same mistakes in period.

The Article page not only bears mistakes on the dates of the Thirteenth Dynasty it also completelty passes over the the Kushite Dynasty, omitting four hundred years of Egyptian History. When I put in the information (which can be sourced through Wikipedia and even Harvard University) it is erased. If Wikipedia isn't seeking the truth and nothing but the truth, what's the point? Tom 02/25/07

The text in question:

The Twenty Fifth and Twenty Sixth Dynasties were marked by the Kushite/Ethiopian rule of Egypt. With some interruptions by the Assyrians, there was a line of Nubian rulers of Egypt from around 750 B.C. to 332 B.C. which overlaps into the Persian/Twenty Seventh Dynasty.
A prominent pharoah during this period was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa. (Taharqa) ruled upper Egypt from around 688 B.C. to 662 B.C. Defeated once by the Assyrians he again regained power and declared himself ruler of all Egypt. During his reign, Taharqa controlled the largest empire in Ancient Africa. He built a temple of solid granite at Jabal Barkal in the Sudan. He also built another temple to the gods Osiris and Ptah. Scholars have identified him with Tirhakah, king of Ethiopia, who waged war against Sennacherib during the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah (2 Kings 19:9; Isaiah 37:9). He built temples in Sanam, Kawa, Atribis, Pnubs, Semna, Kasr Ibrim, and in the Theban district. Trading increased dramatically during his reign, fostering economic, religious and cultural activities in both Egypt and Ethiopia. His remains were excavated from a pyramid in Nuri in 1917 by an expedition sponsored by Harvard University.

It was probably removed because it is too detailed for this article; there is not enough room to mention every leader over the many thousands of years of Egyptian history. Some of this information might be more appropriate for the article Taharqa, but needs cleanup. See Talk:Taharqa for my comments.

What is the source of your information about the Thirteenth dynasty of Egypt? This article does not currently mention it; perhaps you were confusing it with the Thirtieth dynasty of Egypt? -- Beland 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Egypt articles

I am concerned by the manner in which some articles relating to Egypt have been edited in a biased, partisan, and inaccurate way. I have attempted to remedy this situation, but have encountered considerable resistance from some other contributors.

The edits I have made to the Egypt page are essentially either:

A) technical, such as correcting the official name of the country as "Gumhūriyyat Miṣr el-ʿArabiyyah", where formerly it read "Jumhūriyyat Maṣr el-ʿArabiyyah" (Misr rather than Masr is correct in this instance, since Masr is the Egyptian Arabic vernacular not the official standard as used by the Egyptian Government - note that in this instance the "g" rather than "j" in "Gumhūriyyat" reflects the official standard in Egypt in addition to the vernacular) and placing the modern Arabic names for the country before the anachronistic names in the now unused Egyptian/Coptic as such - "Egypt (Arabic: مصر Miṣr ; Egyptian Arabic: Máṣr; Egyptian: km.t ; Coptic: Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ Kīmi ; )";

B) the insertion of better English (the introductory paragraph regarding Sinai - Sinai is poorly described as a land bridge TO Asia since it IS in Asia).

However, there are 2 matters of greater concern. Firstly, the removal of mention to the Arab World when it appears next to the term Middle East. Inclusion of this term is common sense, and indeed necessary to inform the reader. It is a larger geo-cultural region to which Egypt is inextricably linked, and as such, its inclusion is factually accurate and important for informative purposes. Its deliberate exclusion can only be symptomatic of a general anti-Arab prejudice by some contributors who seek to deny or downplay the Arab aspect of Egyptian identity. Such acts reflect personal views, not facts, and compromise the neutrality and accuracy of the article. There are further such examples, some oblique but not the less identifiable, which I could cite in articles related to Egypt.

Secondly, the issue regarding the appropriate name for the Revolution of July 23 1952. I have commented on this issue substantially in the Talk section of the 1952 Revolution page, which I have flagged regarding neutrality - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1952_Revolution.

My sole concern is that accurate and fully informative information be placed on these pages. I hope that we will be able to probably analyze the issues raised above in a manner that is impartial and reflects commonly used terms rather than those that betray an ingrained personal prejudice.

Thank you.

Louse 09:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to the proper chronological order of the languages and to the older description of the Sinai. There is a previous consensus on the Sinai part for neutrality's sake. I've also written a discussion of the identity question to accommodate alternative views on Egypt's Arab orientation. Also, I suggest you attempt to disabuse yourself a little bit of conspiracy theories. — Zerida 08:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Population of Egypt

In the beginning sentences it says that Egypt is the 'fifteenth most populous' country, while in the box table it is list as eleventh. Just wondering whether this information could be wrong, thanks Aeryck89 10:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

List of countries by population on Wikipedia shows it is the 15th most populous country. That article shows Egypt's population based on its population clock, whereas this article shows what appears to be a 2007 estimate without a source. Even if the estimate on this page was true, that would still only place it 14th on the world population table. Therefore I think it's safe to say it is the 15th most populous country in the world, unless someone can source the 2007 population estimate on the Egypt page. LeviathanMist 17:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
If Egypt is the world's 13th largest and one behind Mauritania, then the Mauritania article must be wrong because IT says Mauritania is the 29th largest, which would make Egypt the 30th largest.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.190.209.236 (talk • contribs).

Ok, this is stupid. I almost just lost my faith in Wikipedia. If the 2007 estimate is unsourced, then it should be removed because it severely conflicts with the list of countries by population. Egypt is either 11th or 16th in population in the world; there's a large difference and it can only be one.

7FlushSetzer 01:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Borders

There is currently no country called "Palestine", and th ewikilink in th article is to a generic 'geographical area. The artile shoudl say it borders the Gaza Strip, which is under the administration of the PA. Isarig 23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Tourism link

Here is a link to The Official Site of the Egyptian Tourist Authority.

http://www.egypt.travel/

NBbeauty 05:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

site

This site was a great help to me. It helped me get information about the Economy, Religon, and Cultures of present and ancient Egypt.THANK YOU!!!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.205.210.180 (talk • contribs).

Religion

I object to this passage, where is the tangible evidence supporting it? "The form of Islam the Arabs brought to Egypt was Sunni, though early in this period Egyptians began to blend their new faith with indigenous beliefs and practices that had survived through Coptic Christianity, giving rise to various Sufi orders that have flourished to this day" Whether or not Okasha deems it to be correct or not is irrelevant, the fact is, Sufi Islam has not changed since its adoption in Egypt. In order to avoid any further confusion, kindly do not confuse traditions with religion.

I'm also extremely sceptical of this passage: "Religious freedom in Egypt is hampered to varying degrees by extremist Islamist groups and by discriminatory and restrictive government policies. Being the largest religious minority in Egypt, Coptic Christians are the most negatively affected community. Copts have faced increasing marginalization after the 1952 coup d'état led by Gamal Abdel Nasser. Until recently, Christians were required to obtain presidential approval for even minor repairs in churches. Although the law was eased in 2005 by handing down the authority of approval to the governors, Copts continue to face many obstacles in building new or repairing existing churches. These obstacles are not found in building mosques"

I invite you to tour Egypt and note the number of new churches being erected around the country and reconsider the inclusion of that passage. In addition, if you are going to list Coptic Christians as having their religious freedom hampered, I suggest you also include Sunni Muslims, since the phenomenon of observant, bearded young men being detained by the government for months or even years and subjected to torture is a well known fact in Egypt. Also, the government installs informants in all mosques in order to monitor Friday sermons and those preachers deemed to be preaching sermons not in accordance with the government's wishes have also been known to be detained and tortured (Sheikh Abdelhamid Kishk was one of the most high profile examples).

Thanks

Jem83 23:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)Jem83 6/6/07 12:06GMT

I agree with the sentiments being echoed here. It looks like the "Religion" section was written by a non-Muslim who set out to articulate his/her own ulterior motives and agenda. That's why from the very outset, you have mention of "sufi orders" and the alleged suffering of minorities like Coptic Christians. Egyptians are pretty tolerant and being a strategically important country that has witnessed continuous uninvited interference esp. from "Western colonizers", Egypt has every right to exercise due diligence when it comes to sanctioning laws pertaining to religion - this is one of the important steps to try to ensure that spies and stooges of the "West" or trouble-makers from a TINY country recently established in the east, and other anti-Egyptian elements are not given the wrong signal or a free-hand to perpetuate their sneaky designs. Allegiances to things like "sufi orders" is exercised by a very, very tiny part of the population and so there is no way that statements made in the section make sense; also a large number of people seemingly "attached" to sufi orders do so on a very cursory basis and simply to just to participate in food, drink and dancing festivals (read: cheap entertainment) as opposed to clinging to a "sufi order" that is struggling against an oppressive government as the article tries to implicate!

This article should be unlocked so that Egyptians from all walks of life can modify it to present the more accurate picture. It looks like the article was written by some "Western" explorer or archiologist who toured the pyramids and then sat in a Western library reading 5 books on Egypt authored by Westerners from a colonial mentality and then started writing this biased article that stinks of vested interests and agenda to try to show that Egypt has problems because Muslims are in charge! How sad (and pathetic). Looks like some people will never learn and will never change. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.42.21.59 (talk • contribs).

Looks like some people will never learn and will never change. Yeah, unfortunately, I wholeheartedly agree with that. — Zerida 22:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Religion section

The person who re-edited the religion section has exhibited intellecutal dishonesty by keeping my Ahram link to the Wafaa Constantine case, while deleting the note that Copts converting to Islam in fact face enormous obstacles. Furthermore, s/he provided a link from a Christian website, and not a reputable news source whether a print one (NY Times, Economist, Etc.) or a news agency (AP, AFP, Reuters) which indicates a high probability of bias. Furthermore, if that person chooses to re-press again with that statement, I'd make sure that the Wafaa Constantine case is included as a counter-example: if you insist on including this paragraph, I'll be adamant on including the aforementioned info for the sake of balance and the main article of Egypt will be laden with unnecessary details. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Citadelite (talk • contribs) 07:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

I'm afraid if you continue this battle, you will end up damaging Egypt's human rights and religious tolerance reputation. Regarding the case of Wafaa Constantine, the woman eventually declared "I was born a Christian and will die a Christian". Thus, she was not forced to convert to Islam to start with, and she eventually decided to vonvert back to Christianity. Simple case of religious freedom. This however was a couple of years ago. Last week, 45 Christians who had converted to Islam and wanted to return to Christianity were denied ID cards following a court verdict. I am sure you've heard about that! Numerous examples exist of Chrsitians or Jews converting to Islam in peace (only to cite a few: Omar El Sherif and Nadia Murad). However, any Muslim converting to Christianity will face what Sharia calls "Had Al Redda" (basically, Islamic-style execution for leaving Islam). The examples are numerous and the freedom of religion is a one-way road in Egypt today. You are free to convert to Islam. But you are not free to leave Islam. If you are in doubt of any of the information I've included, ask, and I'll be glad to provide you with the appropriate links (although I doubt you are Egyptian and haven't heard about all these incidents). Thanks. --Lanternix 14:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the BB Ghali comment is invalid as it's a personal opinion. For example, he accompaigned Sadat to Jerusalem and was the chief architect of the Camp David Accords. Your insistence on twisting the facts was highlighted in the previous "only" two ministers on the cabinet comment; Copts form 10% of the population, and currently there are 30 ministries in Egypt (http://www.egypt.gov.eg/english/guide/directory.asp), so they form 6% of cabinet positions (2/30) which suggests only a 4% reduction in "true" representation. Furthermore, Youssef B Ghali holds the finance portfolio which is regarded as one of the most important govermnet portfolios in any cabinet (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/country_profiles/737642.stm). "I'm afraid if you continue this battle, you will end up damaging Egypt's human rights and religious tolerance reputation" Is this some kind of veiled threat or something? --User:Citadelite 11:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not issue threats. You just seemed too concerned about polishing Egypt's image in the media. I was only opening your eyes to the fact that capitalizing on this matter will only do the exact opposite of what you'd like to see. The BB Ghali comment is useless to begin with and has nothing to do with the Coptic human rights matter. But if you'd like to talk about it, how would you or anyone explain the fact that he, the only Copt to be responsible for the Egyptian MFA, was also the only acting foreign minister, with all other foreign ministers being effective and non-acting? Isn't that a proof of discrimination? And how about other offices? Why don't you see Copts in influencial positions? And how about having 1 Coptic governor out of 25? Do Copts represent 24% of the population? You put forward a number of 10%, which is a disputed number to begin with (Zakareya Azmi, Mubarak's chief of staff, put forward a number of 12% last year, and the Coptic Church put forward figures ranging from 14% to 20% of the population!) This means we should see between 3 and 5 Coptic governors. There is one. Thus the word only is justified in this case. Similarly, with 32 ministers (See this), we should be seeing between 4 and 6 Coptic ministers. Since there are two, the word only is again justifiable. What you claim is "one of the most important govermnet portfolios in any cabinet" means nothing (I don't even understand how this realates to the link you put, which talks about Mubarak and his family!) There are many other more important portfolios (culture, education, foreign affairs, defense, interior, justice, etc). Regards. --Lanternix 16:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not concerned about polishing Egypt's picture - I am concerned about SHOWING THE TRUTH and more specifically your attempts to skew it. BB Ghali was appointed as the only acting foreign minister for reasons having to do with the controversial legacy of his grandfather in the Denshway incident (see Heikal - Autumn of Fury). If you don't know why he was appointed as an acting foreign minister, don't just assume that it was because he was a Copt - it only shows your ignorance.. Furthermore, I removed the "only" comments, and I will continue to do so as it's a value judgement. The reader should be the one making the call on whether Copts are proportionally represented or not. If you continue to do so, I'll apply for blockage, and will continue to remove the "only" statement as long as I can. You have been blocked before as your record shows. As to the BBC link, are you kidding me? The finance minister post is precisely included there because it's one of the most important cabinet posts. He manages Egypt's budget! It's recognized that the posts of Interior, Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Finance are the most important cabinet posts. --User:Citadelite 16:59, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha, you're so funny! Seriously! Instead of finding a good-enough argument to counter my objections, you reverted to a pathetic comment such as "You have been blocked before as your record shows" :)))) Kind of shows you've got nothing better to say. "It's recognized that the posts of Interior, Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Finance are the most important cabinet posts." Recognized by whom exactly? By you? Who are you? What's your reference? In any case, I'll assume that you need some time to find answers to my questions, so I'll give you a couple of days to come up with something better than this, after which I'll be glad to engage in your so-called edit-war about these 2 words. As you may have noticed from your research about me, not only have I been blocked before, but I've also won all my Wikibattles! Salamat. --Lanternix 17:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I must use three smillies in my arguements. Seriously get a life. The cabinet posts are UNIVERSALLY recogonized as the most important ones; that's why they're included on the BBC page (hey, that's a reference, ain't it?) I've given you answers and provided rebutals. You're the one who cannot find anything but smillies to reply with. Furthermore that's not a point of contention anymore. Rather the problem is your blind insistence on using the word "only" when this should be left up to the reader to decide. You shouldn't be inserting value judgements here. . Edit it back to "only" and this will end by IP blocking. The above will be quoted as you inviting me to an edit war, which proves that you are merely interested in stating your viewpoint without adequate citations. --User:Citadelite 18:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, too much fanfare over a small word. There are ways to get around a perceived POV, e.g. by adding qualifying statements like "Experience has shown..." or "Copts feel the number is not proportional...", etc. It is important to remember however that simply blanking sourced content [1] is not justified and is interpreted as vandalism. I will give it a try. — Zerida 22:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, could not agree more with the recent changes. Just to capitalize on the vandalism point: please do blank sourced content [2]. --Lanternix 03:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Etymology of Misr/Masr

The "Etymology" section of the article gives the origin of the name Misr largely in terms of the biblical (Hebrew) "Mitzráyim:, like this:

Miṣr, the Arabic and official name for modern Egypt (Egyptian Arabic: Maṣr), is of Semitic origin directly cognate with the Hebrew מִצְרַיִם (Mitzráyim), meaning "the two straits" (a reference to the dynastic separation of upper and lower Egypt), and possibly means "a country" or "a state".[5] Miṣr in Arabic also means "a country" or "a state" or "frontier-land".

The source for this is an on-line article in what appears to be a fundamentalist Christian website. Something more scholarly is needed, and no reference to ancient Hebrew is needed at all - just Arabic. I suggest someone with access to Weber should check the entry for m/s/r. (Incidentally, I strongly doubt that Misr in Arabic does mean a country, a state, or a frontier-land - I vaguely recall that Misr is derived from the Classical Arabic for "civilised", but can't be certain - but this seems quite plausible, in terms of 6th century nomadic Arabs looking at Egypt from the outside). PiCo 04:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

We've had this discussion before. The text is not saying that the word *originated* from Hebrew, that is not what cognate means. Essentially all the historically attested Semitic languages have some form of this word, which means they are all cognate with one another and thus of Proto-Semitic origin. Perhaps it should be reworded for clarity. — Zerida 17:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Picture

River Nile at Aswan
River Nile at Aswan

I would like to replace the first picture of the river Nile with this one as it is at the same place but of much higher res can you help... Merlin-UK 19:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Both images are quite picturesque, I'd hate to have to part with either. There is no rule however that says we can't have two shots of the nile. — Zerida 03:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Egypt's name in Coptic

Egypt's name in Coptic is Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ (Bohairic Dialect) or Ⲕⲏⲙⲉ (Sahidic Dialect) Although it is *currently* pronounced Kīmi, the truth is it was actually pronounced Kāmi in Bohairic and Kāma in Sahidic the reason it is pronounced differently today is that the Coptic pronunciation reformed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_pronunciation_reform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebson (talk • contribs)

Actually, older texts transliterate the letter ⲏ in names and placenames as the high, front vowel /i/ (the rest usually but not always as /a/). We know for example that Ⲙⲁⲣⲏⲥ is definitely Marīs and the proper name Ⲃⲏⲥⲁ is obviously Wissa, and neither was ever pronounced *marās and *wāssa in any stage or dialect of the language. For the name of the country, we have further evidence from the Classical Greek rendering of the Egyptian name: Χημία. Occasionally, words are alternately spelled with ⲏ and ⲓ; e.g. Sahidic for 'small' is spelled both as ϣⲏⲣⲉ and ϣⲓⲣⲉ. Also, there always be dialectal differences in the pronunciation of the vowel, so in reality Bohairic [i] is often Sahidic [e] and [a]. Proponents of the "Old Bohairic" pronunciation make valid points, and I personally agree that it's closer to original Egyptian phonology. However, like the reformed pronunciation itself, it is too neatly pre-boxed and uniform to account for other, more subtle differences. — Zerida 03:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

you are strange

hahaha you are saying arab reapublic of egypt and thats the name in arabic as well and ppl didnt talk about it b4, anyway if we will go back to original yeah egypt was not an arab country BUT today the people there are arabs either mixed with arab or pure, and the big populations can tell that, anyway if u wanna us to be racist arabs in egypt are more than 74%, and thats why the country now is an arabian country, because of the ppl. hope u got it

What the hell is that? Egypt is Egyptian and not Arab. What makes you think Egyptians are Arabs?

Arabs are the group of people stretching from the Middle East to Northern Africa. Arab is not a country so yes, they are Arabian.

68.49.1.207 00:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. Arabs are those who live in Arabia. In Egypt, people are Egyptians. Update your historical atlas or whatever encyclopedia you're using!

Interesting, and inform me of this country named Arabia.

7FlushSetzer 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

hi all, I would like to clarify some points for you:

  1. Egypt is called (the Arab Republic of Egypt - ARE).
  2. Egypt is an Arab country located in the region called Arabia which includes all the Arab countries beginning from Morrocco and ending by Sultanate of Oman (north Africa and the Gulf region).
  3. Arabia is not a country, it is a group of countries that have a common factor which is using Arabic language as a primary language.

HaythamAbulela 07:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!!!

7FlushSetzer 17:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Q.1 When was the name Arab Republic of Egypt coined?
A.1 After the Nasser 1952 coup d'etat.
  • Q.2 So what was the name of Egypt before the 1952 coup d'etat?
A.2 The Kingdom of Egypt.
  • Q.3 Not the Arab Kingdom of Egypt?
A.3 No.
  • Q.4 So the Egyptians woke up one day and realized they are Arabs so they changed the name of the country?
A.4 Well, I wouldn't say the Egyptians did. Mr Nasser had a pan-Arabist agenda that he wanted to implement to changing the name to Arab Republic and uniting with Syria to form the United Arab Republic from 1985 to 1961 served his intentions to become the sole leader of the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East and North Africa. Egyptians themselves have nothing to do with this policy, and most still consider themselves Egyptians NOT Arabs (see the Wikipedia articles entitled Arab and Egypt for more details).
  • Q.5 So why aren't Egyptians Arabs?
A.5 Egyptians were Egyptians to begin with, those who built the pyramids. As Egypt became dominated by foreign powers such as the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Byzantines, few foreigners settled in the country, but certainly not enough to significantly affect the overall genetic makeup of the population. The Fayyum Portraits are an excellent example. These foreigners became absorbed into the Egyptian culture and ended up being Egyptianized. When other foreigners, namely the Arabs, invaded Egypt in the 7th century AD and onward, again few of them settled in the country. But tens of thousands of Arabs settling in Egypt are a drop in a cup in comparison to the millions of Egyptians who were already living in the country. The Arabs inforced their language and religion on the Egyptians, and this why today most Egyptians are Arabic-speaking and Muslims. This by no means indicates that Egyptians are Arabs; merely Arabized Egyptians. --Lanternix 16:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • After Islam Many of Arab tribes deported to Africa and they Build cities Like Cairo..Fustat and other ..sons of those cities are from arabian blood

Ok, this debate about whether or not Egypt is "Arab" is frankly a bit more complicated than either side is conceding. I found particularly amusing the post in which the writer apparently interviewed him or herself.

In effect, this debate rests in part on how you're defining "Arab." Those insisting Egypt is not an Arab country are probably depending on a primarily racial definition, in which case it would be accurate to say that Egypt isn't predominantly Arab per se as Arabs are a racial group primarily based in the Arabian Peninsula (I assume this is what was meant by the "Arabia" reference). The argument that Egypt is an Arab country is based on an ethno-linguistic definition of being Arab, which would basically argue that in being an Arabic speaking country for the past several centuries, at least, Egyptians are Arabs. Even the Coptic archives have been maintained in Arabic for centuries.

I'm not sure where the figure Egypt is at least 74% Arab comes from, but it seems unlikely. Egypt, 'racially' speaking is still probably way too hybrid to have become that "Arab" racially. If anything it remains predominantly indigenous in the pre-Arab sense. This is evidenced most compellingly by the fact that Copts and Muslims in Egypt are physically indistinguishable, yet Copts are almost certainly non-Arab because of the circumstances surrounding inter-religious marriages. If a Muslim man marries a Christian woman then the children will almost certainly be Muslim and Muslim women are basically prohibited from marrying Christians. The point being, that any marriage between Arab Muslims and Christian Egyptians would result in Muslim offspring. There of course still exists a small minority of Copts who have married with Arab Christians, but this remains a small proportion of the Coptic population. That said, Copts do not represent a pure breed of indigenous Egyptian, as is often claimed. They intermarried with foreigners as well, just not so much the Arabs (at least if they married Arabs their Coptic Christian identity would not be sustained among offspring as previously explained). Copts have mixed with Armenians, Greeks, Romans (if one goes far back enough) and even French, among others. It is quite obvious how diverse Egypt's ethnicity actually is. However in the modern era of racial nationalism these racial identities have taken on a new importance.

I personally, as a disclaimer am a Copt, who still considers himself ethno-linguistically Arab. I also don't think this is nearly as important as others seem to feel.

An argument over our true "racial" identity is highly anchronistic, and mildly disturbing. There are no "true" racial identities. Everyone is derived from migrating mixes. Race, to what extent such a thing really exists, is more of a spectrum rather than a series of clear divisions. Culturally Egypt is and isn't Arab. It certainly has a share of Arab traditions and a Bedouin population with closer ties to the Arabs. But if anyone has been in Cairo in the summer and spent time with Egyptians they would notice the regular statement made by Christians and Muslims alike, "look at the Arabs," meant to describe "those" people who come from the gulf. This suggests a distinguishing between them "the Arabs" and us "the Egyptians". That said, many people who say that would, in a different context consider themselves Arabs, as well. Egypt has an independent Egyptian identity, it has an Arab identity and it has an African identity, which at different times has been emphasized or deemphasized. All play roles within the society. The "true" identity of Egypt, in the singular sense, does not exist. Identity is far more various and complicated than a single word could explain. Further, different Egyptians are of different views on the subject. I think the identity of individual Egyptians should be left to the individuals rather than trying to "prove" Egypt's "real" singular identity on a wikipedia board. -TEK

  • I agree to a large extent with most of the previous post. The statements I disagree the most with are:
1. "Copts have mixed with Armenians, Greeks, Romans (if one goes far back enough) and even French, among others. It is quite obvious how diverse Egypt's ethnicity actually is. However in the modern era of racial nationalism these racial identities have taken on a new importance."
This statement is very misleading. Yes Copts and Muslim Egyptians have intermarried with non-Egyptians who settled in Egypt, there's no doubt in that. But what was the ratio of these non-Egyptians to the ratio of the Egyptians? For example, if a White American happens to be 1/32 native American, does this make him/her multi-ethnic and not a White American? We are talking here about a nation well established in its homeland, and that numbers millions. Whena handful thousand settle in and intermarry with these millions, it's like a drop of milk in a large cup of tea. This can be very easily proven by the striking similarity between today's Egyptians and their ancestor's Faiyum Portraits.
2. "I personally, as a disclaimer am a Copt, who still considers himself ethno-linguistically Arab."
Linguistically you can consider yourself Arab if you'd like. But don't say "ethno=linguistically", because you'd be contradicting your statement that "Copts are almost certainly non-Arab because of the circumstances surrounding inter-religious marriages". As a Copt, you can be ethnically anything but Arab. --Lanternix 14:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to address your fist objection in much detail because, I frankly do not see that it matters much. The most important point you made was that all Egyptians, irrespective of faith, have striking similarities to Pharoanic images. And so as long as you're not disputing the true Egyptianness of any particular religious group in Egypt I have no qualms. I don't mean to be dismissive I just don't think race is all that important. A Greek or Armenian born and raised in Egypt over generations can be Egyptian, as far as I'm concerned. So can an Arab, in the racial sense. They are socialized Egyptians and while they may have some blood ties to another people in another place, I don't find that terribly important.

With respect to your second objection, it's simply based on a misunderstanding of what ethnicity actually is. You're conflating race with ethnicity. Ethnicity is not so much racial, rather it is a socialized construction of identity constituted through social experience, personal perception and external perception vis a vis others. According to the wikipedia article on ethnicity "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, either on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry[1], or recognition by others as a distinct group[2], or by common cultural, linguistic, religious, or territorial traits... The term is used in contrast to race, which refers to a classification of physical and genetic traits perceived as common to certain groups." It is in many ways similar to Benedict Anderson's notion of an "imagined community" with respect to nations.

And so while I am "racially Egyptian," with a touch of Greek and Syrian I am ethno-linguistically Arab. By ethno-liguistically, I mean to suggest that language in this case plays a crucial role in the construction of my ethnic identity and that of much of Egypt. Further, Egypt's long term connection to the Arab World (ethno-linguistic, rather than racial) is important in the construction of the ethnicity of many, if not most Egyptians. The point being, with a proper understanding of the term ethnicity it becomes clear that I can say that I am ethno-linguistically Arab, as are most Egyptians. - TEK

Did anyone read about the formation of the Arab League?

for every one please refer to the formation and history of the Arab League.

HaythamAbulela 09:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you know that wikipedia is not a forum and did you read the banner on this page that says Please do not use this page as a discussion forum? Egyegy 15:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Population

Population - 2007 estimate 82,982,364 According to wikipedia arabic.

I want say some thing that arabs was White People and Ancient Egyptian was Black People (sam thing with people of north africa) and there arab tribes traveled to Egypt before islam...and mother of Ishmael was arab from Egypt..thanks

That is clearly false as the Arab people did not even exist until Ishmael's descendants became a people of their own right. That is why in Ancient times the Arabs were originally called Ishmaelites. Also, Ishmael's mother Hagar was not Arab as there were no Arab people until Ishmael's descendants became a people of their own right. Ancient Egyptians were not "Black People" as you have said. The "Black People" in Ancient Egypt are often people from the Kingdoms of Nubia and Cush who had both at one point ruled in the areas in North East Africa now known as Egypt, Sudan, and Ethiopia. Nat Tang ta | co | em 09:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Hagar was Qahtani Arab from tribe call Banu 'amlh(بني عاملة) (Yemeni Qahtani tribe) Which traveled to North Arabian peninsula then to North Egypt and Sinai Peninsula
and they live with People North Egypt and they Married from them and they Speaks in the Language of Ancient Egyptian.Except Section of Banu 'amlh that was in Sinai Peninsula
and there other arab Qahtani tribes Which traveled Africa before islam..like Yemeni Qahtani tribe 'far(عفار) and they stil have the name of tribe 'far today and they exist in Sudan and Eritrea and Somalia and Ethiopia and Egypt and Yemen
who are arabs today ..? about Arabized Arabs: Assyrian Ancient Egyptian Berber arab jews and others Which most of them are Semitic and who Consider Themselves arabs today ,
For example Ibrahim was from iraq who Speaks Syriac language and..Ishmael son of Ibrahim father of Arabized He was Speaks arabic Which are use today Between Arabs and from him to many arab tribes like Banu Tamim and Taghlib and Quraysh and Banu Hanifa and prophet Muhammad who Consider Themselves Semitic and arabs

Hyksos was Yemeni Qahtani tribe call Banu Amilah or Banu 'amilah (بني عاملة) Which traveled to Syria then to North Egypt

At that time Fifteenth Dynasty ruled over Egypt, whose rulers are known in history as the Hyksos kings. They belonged to the Arab race, but had migrated from Palestine and Syria to Egypt in or about 2000 B. C. and taken possession of the country. The Arab historians and the commentators of the Quran have given them the name of Amaliq (the Amalekites), and this has been corroborated by the recent researches made by the Egyptologists. They were foreign invaders who had got the opportunity of establishing their kingdom because of the internal feuds in the country.

We also learn from the history of Egypt that the "Hyksos kings" did not acknowledge the gods of Egypt and, therefore, had imported their own gods from Syria, with a view to spreading their own religion in Egypt. This is the reason why the Quran has not called the king who was the contemporary of Prophet Joseph by the title of "Pharaoh," because this title was associated with the religion of the original people of Egypt and the Hyksos did not believe in it, but the Bible erroneously calls him "Pharaoh". It appears that the editors of the Bible had the misunderstanding that all the kings of Egypt were "Pharaohs."

Egyptians called these kings "shepherd kings," translated in Egyptian as "hega-khase". Greek authors later rendered this as "Hyksos,"

Hyksos means "foreign ruler." The Khwaset (foreign) in "Heka Khwaset" began to sound like Shose (shepherds) during the end of the first millenium BC, so historians began writing "Shepherd Kings," but it's a total error which Egyptologists no longer make. And most of the rest you've stated would be similarly dismissed by Egyptologists as bunk. Thanatosimii 23:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That's Peace on the info given --Freedom Build 21:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please add the link to Tetum Wikipedia

[[tet:Ejitu]] Thank you tet:User:Joao Xavier Santos

There is no proof that Kemet means Black soil

For so many decades Egyptologist and many other scientist alike constantly misinterpret Kemet (which is the proper name for the so called ancient Egypt) saying it means black land many have tried to argue of the possibly means.

First off, hieroglyphs is not the proper name for such a writing. That was a name given to them from some one of ignorancy. Mdw Ntr (Medew Netcher) which means "God Speech," or Divine Speech." Hieroglyphs, is a Greek appellation, which means "sacred writing" (Carruthers 1995,39).

Second, the language of their ancient civilization indicates that in naming their country Kmt (or Kemet), the ancient Egyptians were referring to themselves as a community or settlement rather than describing the soil-an interpretation obviously dismissed by Egyptologists. --Freedom Build 21:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Before telling inaccurate information, do you even speaking Egyptian? Do you even know the difference between Kimi/Kemet and Metremenkimi? --Lanternix 05:24, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

official name

As far as I understand, country's official name is pronounced Jumhūriyyat Miṣr al-‘Arabiyyah in Standard Arabic and Gumhuriyyet Maṣr el-‘Arabiyyah in Masri. But now we see here a kind of a mixture - Gumhūriyyat Miṣr al-‘Arabiyyah - i.e. almost standard version, but with initial G instead of J. Don Alessandro 08:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a distinction between Egyptian Standard Arabic, and the Standard Arabic used in the rest of the Arab World. In Egyptian Standard Arabic, used for all official purposes in Egypt, the letter "J" ("jeem") is "G" ("geem"). Thus, any Latin transliteration of the official name of Egypt as "Jumhuriyyat Misr al-Arabiyyah" is inaccurate. The correct Latin transliteration is "Gumhuriyyat Misr al-Arabiyyah". The Egyptian usage of "geem" rather than "jeem" is not merely colloquial. It is the official form, used politically, scholarly, etc.
There is also a distinction between Egyptian Standard Arabic and Egyptian Colloquial Arabic (Masri). In Egyptian Standard Arabic, the name of the country is correctly written and pronounced as "Misr", whereas in Egyptian Colloquial Arabic, "Misr" is pronounced "Masr". For official purposes the correct spelling remains "Misr" (this is also the spelling found in the Koran and in Arabic editions of the Bible). Louse 16:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the detailed explanation! I didn't know that in Egypt even in Standard Literary language ج‎ is pronounced as g. Don Alessandro 21:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
For some reason I can't see the name in coptic letters, its only empty boxes. Grrahnbahr (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
You want to download this font in order to view Coptic characters on Wikipedia. — Zerida 23:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

is Egypt also in Asia?

according to the Wikipedia article about Africa, the Suez Canal is one of the 'borders'. Since the Sinai peninsula is on the 'eastern' side of Suez, should this article say that Egypt is partly in Asia? Richardson mcphillips1 19:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Egypt is indeed a transcontinental country, being both in Africa and Asia. The opening paragraph of the article does allude to this -
"Egypt...is a country in North Africa that includes the Sinai Peninsula, a land bridge to Asia".
However, one might suggest that this sentence would benefit from some adjustment. For, in addition to being an uncommon manner of explaining this geographical issue, it is also inaccurate; the Sinai Peninsula is not a land bridge TO Asia, it IS IN Asia. Something cannot be a bridge to a location and also be the location itself.
A more accurate sentence would be "Egypt...is a country in North Africa (with the Sinai Peninsula in Asia)".
It should be noted that in spite of its transcontinental status, Egypt remains an African country (it is only ever described as being territorially partly in Asia, and never as Asian). Though pigeonholing Egypt can be a complex affair (it is simultaneously Muslim and Christian, Arab and African, Eastern and Mediterranean, etc), in as far as continental alignment or identification can be determined, Egypt is universally referred to as being African (for example, membership of the African Union, and Egypt's contribution to the establishment of its forbearer, the Organization of African Unity).
(One might contrast this with Turkey, which is also transcontinental, where the reverse is true. Though the vast majority of Turkish territory is in Asia, and most Turks trace their ancestry to the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, since the 1920s Turkey has aligned and identified itself with Europe.)
Though, as with most, if not all other Arab-African states, there is a greater emphasis on the Arab rather than African facet of national identity, both politically and amongst most of the general public, this does not alter the underlying facts:
1) geographically, the vast majority of Egyptian territory is and has always been in Africa;
2) most Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian trace their ancestry to the Ancient Egyptians, who were African not Asian;
3) Egyptians self-identifying as Arab (a majority but by no means all of the population) do so on the basis of shared linguistic, cultural, and historical bonds, not in terms of race or ethnicity;
4) the Arab World is a geo-cultural region, not a continent (indeed, the Arab World by its very nature is transcontinental).
In view of the above, changing the relevant sentence to "Egypt...is a country in North Africa (with the Sinai Peninsula in Asia)" is warranted. Louse 20:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

thank you, your comments are most informative. I am intrigued by #2: "most Egyptians, both Muslim and Christian trace their ancestry to the Ancient Egyptians, who were African not Asian." Do any claim Arab ancestry? Richardson mcphillips1 20:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Egypt is most definitely in Africa. We can throw around definitions of 'transcontinental' all day, but the majority of the country is on the continent of Africa, and the country falls within the African Union, putting it solidly within Africa. The Sinai peninsula does put Egypt's footprint into the Middle East, but this isn't about a geo-cultural, political, religious, or any other defintion. Egypt is an African nation. Rarelibra 21:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
5 governorates are in Asia (3 partially). Egypt is a Middle East part, isn't it? Only Egypt has common border with Israel proper and Gaza Strip. Three wars were in Asian Egypt - Suez Crisis, Six-Day War and Yom Kippur War. Sharm el Sheikh and Mount Sinai are in Asian Egypt.
But U.S. of America has only 49 american states - Hawaii is Oceania part. Bogomolov.PL 09:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov - you are confused, maybe? US has 50 states - Alaska is located in North America, Hawaii is in Oceania - but is still part of the country. This isn't a debate on how many governorates Egypt has in the Middle East, the majority of the country (and it's classification) is African by geography. Rarelibra 14:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I know a number of US states, not only Alaska is in North America - the rest 48 states are in North America (north from Panama Canal), but not Hawaii. I didn't clame Hawaii is not US. But Hawaii is 1st level division of the US and Hawaii is not in America continent. So US is transcontinental country with 2% of 1st level divisions not in America. Egypt has 5 governorates (18.5% from total) in Asia. Is Egypt Asian too? Is Egypt African? Yes, it is transcontinental mostly African country. And US proper (I don't talk about Guam and Puerto Rico) is transcontinental mostly American country. Hawaii is not in America continent. So Egypt is both African and Middle East country and it was all 5000 years of its history. Are the Egyptians Arabs? Where is Arabs homeland? In Arabia, you see. Are Egyptians moslems? Where is Islam homeland? In Arabia. What native African is in Egyptian culture which is common with Zair or Gabon? Will be naturalized Egyptian named Afroamerican?Bogomolov.PL 16:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov - you confuse the point. You claimed America has only 49 american states. The US has 50 states - Oceania is NOT a 'continent' by defition (thus, the US is NOT "transcontinental"). Oceania is a regional definition of geography, and this conversation is spirally away from the original point. Rarelibra 17:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Is Japan in Asia? Using your logic - no, it is archipelago. You know, San Andrés and Providencia are Colombian, but in North America, so 0.005% Colombia national territory is in the Noth America. All islands are divided between the continents and Hawaii are the Northern part of Polynesia (native population is Polynesian) and Polinesia is part of Oceania, which includes Australia, Polynesia, Melanesia etc. Or Britain is not in Europe? About transcontinental US read in WP here, so it is not only my private opinion. Bogomolov.PL 18:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, dude... Oceania is not a continent. And we weren't talking about Japan (which is included in the continent of Asia), nor Colombia (South America), etc. Rarelibra 19:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, US was an example of transcontinental country. Or you believe the Oceania is America part? Egypt is transcontinental, isn't it? It is African Union member of course. But Morocco - no. It isn't in Africa? Mauritius(British), Mayotte and Réunion(French) - are not AU members. Spain with its African exclaves (Ceuta and Melilla) and Canary Islands, portugese Madeira pertain to Africa but not to AU. Yemen with its Socotra is not AU member. So a country presence at AU nations list decides only political position of a nation. Egypt position is be AU member, but it is political position. Morocco is African, but it is not in AU, Socotra is African but its owner Yemen is not AU member. If we agree with geography - everything East of Suez Canal is not Africa.Bogomolov.PL 06:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


But only two governates are in Asia, North Sinai and South Sinai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.37.206 (talk) 21:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Three governorates (Ismailia, Port Said, Suez) are in Asia partially too. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Spelling error

In the introduction, it says: "Abbout half of Egypt's"... instead of "About half..."

Someone fix?

85.220.61.67 (talk) 16:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Got it. El_C 17:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Identity

As an egyptian native, i am very disappointed that the article seems to favor the view that Egyptian is Non-Arabs. It is indeed very biased. Really, inside Egypt, it is not a big issue. I am from Alexandria, and i think that most people will not see a contradiction in being both Arab and Egyptian. My father is from Aswan and probably descent from Nubians rather than Ethnic Arabs, but as Arabic is his first language, he identifies as Arab. Same does my mother, my siblings and I - even though my mother is actually of Turkoman origin and is only partly Arab! I have only outside Egypt met Muslim Egyptians who deny being Arab in any kind. For Copts, the issue is less complicated, as only few would identify themselves as being arab. However, the article cites a lot of famous egyptians who favor the view that Egyptian is non-Arab, and no one sharing the view that we are Arabs, among these is the Egyptian government and the father of our country, Gamal Abdel-Nasser. Hamid-Masri (talk) 13:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi, Hamid-Masri,
My own experience in Egypt confirms that you're absolutely right about how Muslim and Coptic Egyptians feel and present themselves. But I'm confused and curious. As you're Egyptian native and all your ancestors and siblings are Arabic-speaking people, I'm taken aback by the fact that Danish (?!) is your mother tongue, and your level of Arabic less than native (?!). As this may be a matter of privacy, please feel free to fend off the question.
Kind regards, Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 21:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


Hi, I am Egyptian too, I wonder how one could come to such a wrong result about the identity? First, your free to see the identity of Egyptians as you wish. But what is the aim of giving a very controversial opinion, instead of learning people how it really is in Egypt. If the tourist or researcher will directly notice that Egypt is very Arabic, why then give them the minority (upper-class) picture. Now if some Egyptians in Imbaba's working class area felt anger and disappointment of the Pan-Arabism (that is actually what he answered on) due to its defeat and betrayal from many leaders, what does this tells us about his identity?. Secondly, supra-state nationality is much more complicated than taking facts from poor disappointed people. If you support your opinions on western studies, I can assure you that western science do NOT teach that there are contradiction between state nationality and ethnic or cultural-linguistic nationality.

Actually Egypt sees itself as the main source of Arabic culture, with music, films and books. Moreover, Egyptians in vast majority would laugh laudly if they would hear you stating that they are NOT Arab. It is comic there that some people might neglect their Arabism. It is comic even for westerners to hear that one speaking Arabic and no other language, and no other ethnicity to claim, would say he is not Arab. Yes, he is for sure Egyptian, But if you would research objectively and not trough a political purpose you would easily see that Egyptian (as well as Iraqi, Palestinian, Syrian etc.) is synonymous with Arab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.158.63 (talk) 00:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


Please Mr. Hamid, remove this term "arab" from any notation to our Egypitianity. Both are like oil and water, which will never EVER mix.

Any Egyptian with adequate IQ (regardless of his/her religion) would not accept adding the term "arab" to his/her description as it is a downgrading to his/her intellectual capacity PERIOD. Can you equate an Egyptian whose ancestors created a civilization to the arabian bedouins? No, completely different.

Saying that Egyptians are Arab is an insult to our people because we have our own culture, history, civilization that should not be downgraded.


  • Oh, My!
This isn´t a discussion but a complete flop. I can´t tell one contributor from another, nor even how many people are in here. Please sign your comments, you're not gonna be bitten :) Thank you.
Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 12:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion

The reference to The Washington Institute for Near East Policy ("Christians make up 10-20 percent of Egypt's population of seventy-seven million, though precise estimates of the number of Copts vary widely. By any account, they represent by far the largest Christian community in the Middle East.") is fine and enough for rubbing the "citation needed" template out, so it should be kept.
But the reference to The New York Times ("...assailants in Dairut, a fundamentalist stronghold 200 miles south of Cairo, shot and killed an elderly Coptic farm manager and wounded a Coptic pharmacist. On Sunday night, a Coptic church was burned in Dairut, where Copts make up 20 percent of the population") restricts literally to the town of Dairut so it should not be extended to the whole of Egypt.
Kind regards, Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 11:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

History: Jews in Egypt

It's interesting to see the religions in Egypt. Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971) is giving a Jewish picture of it which can be seen here:

Jews in Egypt

There were tolerant times, but the "Christian" crusaders disturbed all tolerance and also Christians and others could not be sure any more since 1250. There were lots of Jews in 19th century in Egypt under British rule, but since 1948 the Jews were persecuted and were emigrating, about 43% to Israel, the other part to other continents of the world. It seems not even 50% of the Jews in Egypt had been Zionist, this is really interesting.

Michael Palomino, 3 Jan. 2008 80.218.114.171 (talk) 18:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Origin

Where did Egypts population originate from, can anyone help me? WE 19/1/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.184.47 (talk) 13:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Please consult these:
--BF 21:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Psalms 78:51; 105:23-27; 106:19-22 refer to Egypt as the land of Ham after Noah's son. Tom 02/07/08

Correction of a number in economics section is needed

Under the section Economy, the numbers in this sentences are completely wrong. A modification is necessary. "Egypt has huge reserves of gas, estimated at over 1,100,000 cubic meters (39,000,000 cu ft) in the 1990s, and LNG is exported to many countries."

How can 1,100,000 cubic meters be called huge? it's only %1 of the daily gas import by Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinajoon (talk • contribs) 17:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)