Talk:Egg tart

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[edit] Hong Kong invention?

Quote It should be noted that while supermarkets in the United Kingdom, such as Sainsbury's and Tesco, produce a variation of the tarts, their products are quite different from what most Hongkongers regard as 'authentic'. end quote. Are egg tarts a Hong Kong/Chinese invention? The above quote seems to suggest that the UK egg/custard tart is derived from the Hong Kong/Chinese egg tart. Can anyone confirm this? Or is it the other way round? In the UK virtually all bakers and supermarkets sell egg/custard tarts, and baking and pastries are not traditional Chinese methods of cooking. LDHan 14:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I am almost certain that they are not a Hong-Kong invention. Bakeries in the UK have been making and selling them for centuries..Helzagood 14:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Also the name in the local Chinese is a combination of “egg” in Chinese (daan) and a Chinese transliteration of “tart” (taat). Taat is used only for its sound. And also milk is not a traditional Chinese ingredient. My own opinion is that the daan taat is either a food that developed in the West and HK at around the same time (but I don’t know where first) or is a HK version of an already established Western food. LDHan 15:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Some possible origins, 1, Invented in HK/Guangdong around time of first Western contact, using cooking methods and ingredients influenced by Western cooking. Then introduced to UK at around same time.

2, Same as 1, but introduced to UK at later time.

3, An already established Western food. Introduced to HK around time of first Western contact, or later.

4, Invented in UK around time of first Western contact in HK or later. Then introduced to HK.

5, Invented in UK and HK independently.

So if we knew how long it’s been around, then we might know more about it’s origins. LDHan 15:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps the author need to re-write part of the article

No. 3 will be the most likely origin.

Although egg tarts in Hong Kong might not taste the same as those from Sainsbury's (I have never tried due to sheer size of the English Custard Tart), I believe part of this article needs to be re-written to reflect the fact that Hong Kong egg tart is derived from a European origin.

For those who can read Chinese, you may go to the link below. For those who can't, The article has interviewed a famous egg tart tea restaurant cum bakery in Central, Hong Kong. They said custard (egg) tart was introduced in the 1940's by western cafe / bakery's in Hong Kong to compete with the dim sum restaurants. A gourmet plaundit / magazine columnist Choi also commented that the egg tart back then was huge - which matches with thoes I saw in Sainsbury's.

http://tcstreet.com/Book/daily/tart/tart.htm

..h9902600 13:40, 21 March 2006

That's a great link, thanks, it's cleared up a lot of things. I'm going to add this information to the article. LDHan 21:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Quote Egg tart is one of the most popular Cantonese pastry but its history is short. Hong Kong Amateur Historian Ng Ho, associate professor in Hong Kong Baptist University, suggests that an egg tart is a promotion pastry introduced in Guangzhou in 1920s. Thanks to the competition among modern shopping malls or restaurants, chefs had to prepare a new pastry every week, named as 'Weekly Pastrty' to attract customers. Inspired by English fruit tart, a chef original tart is in oval shape, comparing to the common round shape today. end quote.

Please can someone provide a source for this? And is is correct to call shopping malls or restaurants in the 1920s "modern"? Did shopping malls even exist in the 1920s? LDHan 15:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I think unless a verifiable published source which is not original research is cited, according to wiki policy/, this quote should be removed.

And what does "suggest" mean? Doe she/she have any evidence or is this just a personal theory?

The Chinese egg tart may be of relatively recent origin, but custard/egg tarts have existed in the West for centuries. They are basically the same; a pastry filled with a mixture of milk and egg. LDHan 14:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Citing_sources for more infomation. From : Wikipedia:No original research Original research is a term used on Wikipedia to refer to material added to articles by Wikipedia editors that has not been published already by a reputable source. In this context it means unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, or arguments that appears to advance a position or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." LDHan 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph removed. LDHan 19:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When it was introduced to HK?

there's some information referring the first Tea restaurant in hk opened in 1940s, but it doesn't necessarily mean egg tart was introduced to hk at that time. yau

Custard tarts are commonly sold here in New Zealand, and it is explicitly said to be "English" in origin. As New Zealand did not have much contact with Hong Kong until the 1980s and custard tarts have been on sale long before that I think it is an antedotal evidence that cuatard tarts came on its own in Britain, and there is a strong evidence that egg tarts are local Chinese adaptations of making custard tarts.

A British blog details with links about custard tart's history in England - it stems from at least the Middle Ages: http://bakingforbritain.blogspot.com/2006/01/custard-tarts.html . Gary Rhodes's New British Classics (BBC Press, 1999) puts its origin to the Tudor Times: "...custard was used as a filling for pastry 'coffins', sometimes with fruit added...". Obviously anyone suggesting the Chinese in Canton invented custard tarts and the British brought the idea back to Britain will be laughed off in the UK. --JNZ 12:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! I've added it to external links. I think it's quite obvious the Chinese egg tart is a local version of British custard tarts (perhaps Portugese as well). Despite the facts, in Hong Kong it is widely believed to be of local origin (HK, Macau and Canton/Guangzhou being of the same cultural region). LDHan 14:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It's OK. I'm HK Chinese migrant to NZ myself and I had long thought egg tarts were local practices of making "Western" pastries - perhaps a local invention. In fact the tarts did not become widespread on the yum char menus in restaurants until the middle 1980s, and in the early '80s you could only enjoy them at char chaan tengs. It was always thought of as a "Western" pastry that got incorporated into Chinese menus.

When I came to New Zealand I got to see the English-style custard tarts and very importantly, they appear at places like traditional bakeries, tearooms, etc - places that you would never see anything remotedly not-fully-British in origin (no gingerbreads, no black rye bread, they did not even sell cinnamon buns - an American derived bread). At that instant, I knew egg tarts are Chinese interpretations of custard tarts. The other day I brought an elderly local New Zeaalander lady to Chinese yum char. She commented that at a glance, the egg tarts are obviously Chinese modifications of traditional English custard tarts - it doesn't look Chinese at all. Hong Kong Chinese in Britain consider the custard tarts "unauthentic egg tarts" probably because they had not seen the "real" ones before, as "real" custard tarts are not commonly found in HK.

I have here recipes for both custard tarts and egg tarts here, egg tarts from a HK cookbook while custard tarts from TVNZ website. Important differences are:

1. Custard tarts inevitably adopt shortcrust pastry, while egg tarts can use both shortcrust and puff pastries.

2. Custard tarts' fillings include milk or more often full cream, vanilla and nutmegs, and a mix of egg yolks and whole eggs are used, while egg tarts often use only water and whole eggs, although some famous char chaan tengs do use a mixture of water and fresh milk.

3. Custard tarts' fillings are simmered over fire before poured into the cases for baking, while egg tarts' fillings are not heated before baking.

4. Cases were baked in advance for custard tarts, while it is not the case for egg tarts.

5. Grated nutmeg is sprinkled on top of custard tarts before the final baking, while it is not used for egg tarts.

6. Custard tarts are served when they reach room temperature, while egg tarts are served hot.

A modern custard tart recipe is here: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/410965/183114 . It is enjoyed all over Britain, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand.

IMHO the article probably needs a complete rewrite up from scratch. We should start with English-style custard tarts as origin, and mention Portuguese pasteis de nata and Cantonese/Hong Kong-style egg tarts as derivatives. --JNZ 00:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should the section on Portuguese-style tart be deleted?

A separate entry on pastel de nata already exists and the Portuguese-style egg tarts on sale in Asia are in fact a version of it with an Anglo and Chinese spin. --JNZ 10:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too Catonese-orientated, this article

Egg tarts have existed in Shanghai and other parts of China since at the 1940s at the latest. This article seems to concentrate exclusively on Hong Kong, Canton and Macao. I will add what info I can find as it comes to hand. --Sumple (Talk) 10:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That is good, people only add information they have, to expand it better. Enlil Ninlil 06:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of egg tarts

Is it just me, or do the egg tarts on the right side of that picture look severely burnt? -71.228.126.149 05:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

As described in the article the top is caramelised - like creme brulee. On a different point - Custard tart redirects here, but there is no picture or description of a proper British custard tart. Jooler 12:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, according to Hong Kong Chinese, custard tarts are invented in China and brought by the British back to the British Isles hehehe It should be noted that while supermarkets in the United Kingdom, such as Sainsbury's and Tesco, produce a variation of the tarts, their products are quite different from what most Hongkongers regard as 'authentic'. Seriously speaking, this belief is widely held within the territory.--JNZ 23:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The top being like Creme Brulee? This is not right at all. The top of Creme Brulee is crunchy and sticks to your teeth. The top of a Portuguese tart is like the same crust you get if you baked mac and cheese in the oven and got that nice crust at the top. It's a soft crust with rich flavor, but not like the creme brulee one by any means. Jon914 00:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Er.. the custard tarts you get at the bakery counter in those supermarkets or in any half-decent bakery are proper British custard tarts and are sprinkled with nutmeg and not caramelised. Personally I'm not a huge fan of nutmeg. Jooler 23:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes British custard tarts are slightly different to Chinese egg tarts. I think the article was started by HK people and at first it was only about the Chinese egg tart. That quote was from an earlier version of the article and it reflects the belief in HK that the egg tart is a local invention. I gather the egg tart, along with "milk tea" which is just British style tea with condensed milk instead of fresh milk, has been promoted in HK as a symbol of HK "culture". So presumably when one HK person saw custard tarts in a British supermarket, they thought "wow, even British supermarkets are selling egg tarts now, but what's all those brown specks on the top?" With this "knowledge" they added that sentence to the article. So that's probably why "Custard tart" redirects here. LDHan 19:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to be more international.....

This article's in serious need of a rewrite!

As a British custard tart eater I was surprised to find "custard tart" redirecting here. For one thing I've never heard a custard tart called an egg tart (maybe an egg custard tart, or just an egg custard, but never an egg tart); for another this article deals only with the Chinese varieties (and Portuguese, seemingly as an afterthought...). I appreciate it started out being about the Chinese tart, but many other cuisines have similar products which need to be properly included.

It seems like it would make sense to have a simple lead that just says what the article's about (pastry cases filled with custard, baked in the oven) and then sections on the various types of tart found around the world. Does that sound sensible? Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 00:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with you. LDHan (talk) 13:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Attempted restructuring, and added more to the British section. I still don't think the article is quite balanced, but it's better than it was! Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 13:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well done, and you are right that the British/NZ variety is always called the custard tart and the egg tart is the Chinese-derived version. At least you didn't have to endure the "English custard tarts were invented by the Chinese and brought back to Britain" nonsense that some of us saw in the previous versions of this article. I still believe the custard tart is the direct ancestor of egg tarts but a lot of local HK Chinese dispute this. I have added my own tidbits as well. --JNZ (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

True that the Chinese and European products usually do have different names (egg tart vs. custard tart). Maybe there'd be a case for splitting the article into an "Egg tart" one and a "Custard tart" one? Obviously each would have a "see also" link to the other.... Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 16:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion this should have been done a long time ago. Once upon a time this article was exclusively about egg tarts and some sections on pastel de nata was added by contributors based in Hong Kong discussing about the tart without the context of the authentic Portuguese ones. Perhaps, as you said, separating egg tarts and custard tarts would help in the long run. Any local Hong Kong contributors wanting to add more here? --JNZ (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split article

OK, I decided to be bold and split the article into a British/NZ/Aussie custard tart page and a Chinese egg tart one. I'll try to clear up any rough edges the split has left.... Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 23:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Is the name 撻 a sound borrowing from English? Badagnani (talk) 04:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

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